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Everybody click the gently caress out of this link
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May 16, 2020 02:03
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Haha “Did you kill?” “Did I WHAT”
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May 16, 2020 02:05
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ruddiger posted:Haha The cut to black after that was amazing. "You hafta ask my brother the priest," also feels like an intensely Paulie line.
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May 16, 2020 02:10
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If you think about it back seasons ago when Chris was made it seems increasing like there were fewer and fewer made guys so associates kept getting elevated to more and more important roles which added more fraying to the tentative mob bonds. Like the show well shows that being made doesn't mean what it used too (if it ever did), but I can see why guys kept flipping once it became your silence didn't mean poo poo or that anyone would have you/families back if you did the time. So even these newly buttoned guys have seen first hand that it does you nothing.
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May 16, 2020 04:20
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Jerusalem posted:He has to see Junior Soprano. Phenotype posted:I never really understood why Butchie was so quick to flip on Phil, though, I thought he'd have a lot more animosity towards Tony after the scene in the diner where Tony curbstomps Coco. Ginette Reno posted:Butchie talks a big game but he's always cowardly when the chips are down. When Tony has a gun in his face, he backs off. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 10:05 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 14:04
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Man, that could have been Sirico's audition tape.
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May 16, 2020 14:23
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Xander77 posted:Arguably another death flag about Tony no longer watching his back. Of course, it could be a singular moment of vulnerability. I think in general with the Soprano's we aren't getting all sides of the story, but yes it is a little abrupt. I think the entire Lupertazzi - Soprano War was essentially as mentioned a commentary on the times since the season came out a few years into Iraq. We were expecting a short victorious war, and mission accomplished after essentially conquering Iraq on the first strike, but unlike the USA the Lupertazzi's realized they weren't gonna come out ahead on the insurgency. So they came to the table and negotiated an exit and walked away. Keeping up the fight would just pile up bodies and cost them money and manpower. Resources Family can't really expend any longer especially after years of internal civil strife which would probably cause the other families of New York to circle them, so the simpler solution was put a bullet in the guy pushing the war and sweep it under the rug. I don't know if Butchie is a huge coward, but he seems to be the most recent in a long line of Lupertazzi #2's who are more pragmatic than their bosses. I assume if he takes over he is gonna go down the same road Johnny Sack & Phil went down. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 21:18
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Jack2142 posted:I think in general with the Soprano's we aren't getting all sides of the story, but yes it is a little abrupt. I think the entire Lupertazzi - Soprano War was essentially as mentioned a commentary on the times since the season came out a few years into Iraq. We were expecting a short victorious war, and mission accomplished after essentially conquering Iraq on the first strike, but unlike the USA the Lupertazzi's realized they weren't gonna come out ahead on the insurgency. So they came to the table and negotiated an exit and walked away. Keeping up the fight would just pile up bodies and cost them money and manpower. Resources Family can't really expend any longer especially after years of internal civil strife which would probably cause the other families of New York to circle them, so the simpler solution was put a bullet in the guy pushing the war and sweep it under the rug. So is Tony getting whacked in the finale still the consensus here? Seems kind of out of sorts with NY seemingly wanting to ease tensions/heat and go back to making easy money.
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May 17, 2020 07:01
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lurker2006 posted:So is Tony getting whacked in the finale still the consensus here? Seems kind of out of sorts with NY seemingly wanting to ease tensions/heat and go back to making easy money. Patsy seems to be a popular theory, but I like the idea that it was Little Carmine getting rid of the other volatile guy who created the mess he had to step back in to clean up, and throwing some red meat to any Phil loyalists out there who were unhappy with the way that whole thing went down. Really though, I think the fact that we don't even know for sure that it happened at all makes it really hard to pin it on someone. Yeah, the show is practically screaming at us that it happened, but that's more in visual cues than in plotting, so I just don't think we saw enough to come to firm conclusions. For all we know someone like Matt Bevilaqua could have decided to make his bones taking out a boss. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 07:57 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 07:52
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I was looking to see if anyone explicitly knew the family was eating at the diner besides the four of them and I don't think there was anyone.
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May 17, 2020 08:56
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Bip Roberts posted:I was looking to see if anyone explicitly knew the family was eating at the diner besides the four of them and I don't think there was anyone. meadow's ingratiating herself to the parisis, she didn't want to see the act done, do you honestly think anyone could be so bad at parallel parking?
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May 17, 2020 10:57
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Rhiannon knew. Payback for Fernando finger banging her cousin on the ski lift.
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May 17, 2020 11:06
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Season 6, Episode 21 - The Final Scenequote:
The final scene of the final episode of The Sopranos was controversial when it aired, and some claimed it was a stumble right at the end of what had been a fantastic television series. Not only was there not some big climactic final moment, but the series itself literally just... stopped. A sudden cut to black and loss of sound confused enough viewers that some literally called their cable providers to complain that their television feed had dropped out at the pivotal moment in the series. In the weeks that followed, the scene was endlessly analyzed and discussed, and a frequent refrain was that The Sopranos got it wrong in the end. Other shows and programs promised to "get it right" when doing their own endings "unlike The Sopranos". Much like The Seinfeld Finale in 1998, The Sopranos final scene was considered by a not insignificant portion of the audience as somehow "failing" the viewer. Except... for the following 13 years people have NEVER stopped talking about it. Almost any discussion of The Sopranos inevitably brings it up, and the bulk of the conversation never even considers the idea that the final scene was in any way an error. No, they argue and debate and postulate on a seemingly endless variety of interpretations, readings and possible intent. It is such a strong scene that I deliberately asked people in this thread to discuss anything OTHER than the final scene when I wrote up the recap of Made in America, because it dominates all discussion of the final episode. People tried, they really did, but even knowing a further write-up was coming and plenty of discussion with it, they couldn't resist bringing it up. Because it really is one of the most remarkable scenes in television history, an astonishing, sometimes maddening, incredibly brave decision by show-runner David Chase to end his unique television series in a manner that absolutely NOBODY saw coming. Anything else might have been lauded but then just shuffled aside to be spoken with in the same breath as any other number of major moments or memories of the show. The final scene Chase gave us instead stands apart, it felt like EVERYBODY in the world was talking about or obsessed with or scrambling for understanding of that final scene... and that continues on well over a decade later in this thread, on the Internet, and on endless articles and journals about the writing, the direction, the acting, the production choices etc. Every frame has been pored over, every word and gesture, every blocking choice, the particular music used and the specific juxtaposition of lyrics with editing choices etc, all examined for some way to decode the final meaning. Chase himself has been notorious at refusing to give his own intent away, before offering contradicting statements that seem to come down firmly on one side or the other and then dismissing not only those statements but also whether he even intended any final meaning at all. I'm not going to tell you what the final scene means, because nobody can give you a definitive answer on that. Plenty of people can argue for their interpretation of the scene, and they can offer up endless reams of "evidence" to prove it. I'm about to do the same, but make no mistake: I cannot tell YOU what this scene means. I can only offer up my own interpretation of it, tell you why I think the way I do, discuss other ideas and why I like or dislike them, then throw out a few final words on how I think it all comes together. It is up to you whether you agree or not. It is for you to offer your own takes, to counter mine, to think about what David Chase might have meant and also whether you agree with than intent or not (death of the author and all). The following is a recap of the final scene, written from the mindset of how I felt when I first watched it back on first airing in 2007: Tony Soprano walks into a diner. It is Holsten's "Ice Cream Parlor", a diner bustling with families, friends and couples enjoying food a step-up from takeout but not a fancy restaurant. He steps through the door, the bell jingling as he enters, and looks out across the tables, frowning when he realizes he is the first of his family to arrive. Music plays in the background over the diner speakers, and he takes a seat at the table, alone. He seems troubled.  Needing a distraction to keep his emotions under control, he leafs through the selection of music at his table's little jukebox, passing "Those Were The Days", "This Magic Moment", "Somewhere in the Night" "Who Will You Run To", all songs that would seem perfect to accompany this final scene. The door to the diner opens and the bell rings, and his heads shoots up in a panic, but it's just a random woman entering. He continues to leaf through the music, and spots Don't Stop Believin' by Journey. As he considers between that and "It's Gotta Be Me", the bell jingles again and the door opens, and his head snaps up once more... it's just a random man. He makes his selection and Journey begins playing just as the bell jingles and the door opens again: this time it is Carmela. Spotting his wife, a sad, almost mournful smile plays across his face. She joins him at the table and he passes her a menu, as elsewhere in the diner a young couple enjoy a playful date and a scoutmaster has taken three of his scouts out for dinner. As she sits, he looks up at her and, as her eyes are lowered putting her purse away, he lets out a long slow sigh of regret. She asks him what looks good tonight and he shrugs, he doesn't know. She tells him that AJ is on his way, but Meadow is running late due to having to see her doctor. He raises an eyebrow, concerned, and she informs him his daughter had to switch birth control. He lets this pass, finally past the point where he can reasonably be upset about the fact his grown daughter is a sexual being. An older man is brought a coffee by a waitress. Finally Carmela brings up the obvious source of tension between them: did he talk to Mink? Tony, at his breaking point, also gives up any pretense of trying to keep these parts of his life separate and informs her that Carlo is going to testify against him. The bell jingles and the door opens, and Tony's head shoots up in a panic again. It is another strange man, this one wearing a Members Only jacket (once a common "unofficial" uniform of the Mafia) but directly behind him is AJ, who joins them at the table. Tony passes him a menu, while Members Only takes a seat at the counter.... but not before casting a quick glance Tony's way. AJ comments on Holsten's onion rings and Tony agrees they're the best in the State, and then reaches out and pats his son's hand lovingly, taking every opportunity he can. At the counter, Members Only casts another quick look at Tony, and takes a better one when he sees Tony isn't looking his way.   Meadow arrives outside, but there are no easily accessible spots on the curb, she will need to parallel park. She backs up too far, then almost hits the car in front of her trying to pull out. Cokes arrive at the table. The couple on a date laugh and Members Only uses the distraction to get another good look at Tony. Carmela asks AJ how work was and he complains that he's only getting coffees and making phone calls, but Carmela assures him he's making contacts without even realizing it. Tony, tense and irritable, reminds him it is an entry level job and "playfully" tosses a wadded up bit of paper at him. AJ responds with a sarcastic comment and Tony snaps at him not to get smart, and seems confused when AJ insists he was actually following Tony's advice. Outside, Meadow continues to struggle to park. Members Only steps up from the counter and approaches the table. Tony cringes, raising his head slowly for what he knows is coming... but Members Only steps past and turns the corner, heading for the men's room. Tony watches him go, still suspicious. Two black men (unidentified black males?) have entered the diner, the bell unheard, and make too obvious a point of looking through the display cases at the available food.   Meadow finally manages to parallel park. Onion rings arrive at the table and Tony informs them he ordered for the table. Each of them grab an onion ring and take it whole into their mouths, almost like communion wafers. Outside, Meadow exits the car and begins to rush across the road to Holsten's. The sound of an approaching car fills the ears, but passes safely behind her. There is a look of intense worry on her face. Inside, Tony considers what music to play next as the song is clearly reaching its crescendo. He reaches for the jukebox but then the bell jingles and the door opens again. His face shoots up, a look of pure horror on his face... and the screen cuts to black. There is no audio, no image for a full 10 seconds... and then the credits come up. In pure silence they play... and the Sopranos is finally over for good.  When the credits rolled and the show was done, I was left flabbergasted. What had just happened? That clear build of tension, Tony's obvious fear and tension reaching a boiling point as he struggled to retain his normalcy for the sake of his family... all to suddenly just... stop? What had happened? The only thing that made sense to me was that Tony had just died, that Members Only had erupted out of the men's room having collected a weapon and blown his brains out perhaps. Or maybe the two unidentified black males whipped guns out of their jackets and shot him? An assassin came through the door ahead of Meadow and killed him? Oh God had the assassin opened fire as Meadow - late due to her botched parking - stepped through the door and was herself killed? WHAT HAD HAPPENED!?! It being 2007, I did what everybody else did. I jumped online and scoured through comments and articles, newsgroups and websites and forums that all were asking the same questions. One thing was clear though, all agreed on the obvious tension of the scene, of Tony's jumpiness and fright, that he knew something was coming and couldn't escape it. But no firm conclusion on WHAT had happened. So I decided to rewatch the final scene again: here is what I watched: Tony Soprano walks into a diner. It is Holsten's "Ice Cream Parlor", a diner bustling with families, friends and couples enjoying food a step-up from takeout but not a fancy restaurant. He steps through the door, the bell jingling as he enters, and looks out across the tables, frowning when he realizes he is the first of his family to arrive. Music plays in the background over the diner speakers, and he takes a seat at the table, alone. He seems bored.  For want of anything better to do, he leafs through the selection of music at his table's little jukebox, passing "Those Were The Days", "This Magic Moment", "Somewhere in the Night" "Who Will You Run To", all songs that would seem perfect to accompany this final scene. The door to the diner opens and the bell rings, and he looks up hopefully, expecting a member of his family... but it's just a random woman entering. He continues to leaf through the music, and spots Don't Stop Believin' by Journey. As he considers between that and "It's Gotta Be Me", the bell jingles and the door opens again, and once more he looks up for a familiar face, but it just a random man. He makes his selection and Journey begins playing just as the bell jingles and the door opens again: this time it is Carmela. Spotting his wife, a smile plays across his face. She joins him at the table and he passes her a menu, as elsewhere in the diner a young couple enjoy a playful date and a scoutmaster has taken three of his scouts out for dinner. As she sits and puts away his purse, he goes to say something, realizes she is currently busy and briefly exhales air instead of talking. She asks him what looks good tonight and he shrugs, he doesn't know. She tells him that AJ is on his way, but Meadow is running late due to having to see her doctor. He raises an eyebrow, concerned, and she informs him his daughter had to switch birth control. He lets this pass, finally past the point where he can reasonably be upset about the fact his grown daughter is a sexual being. An older man is brought a coffee by a waitress. Finally Carmela brings up what has been worrying her: did he talk to Mink? Tony, at this stage in their marriage finally past any pretense of trying to keep these parts of his life separate, informs her that Carlo is going to testify against him. She frowns, but there is nothing that can be done about it right now. The bell jingles and the door opens, and Tony looks up again, spotting his son behind a stranger entering just ahead of him, wearing a Members Only jacket. He spots Tony looking his way, realizes he is looking past him at whoever entered behind him, and takes a seat at the counter. AJ joins Tony and Carmela at the table and Tony passes him a menu. AJ comments on Holsten's onion rings, Tony agreeing they're the best in the State, and gives his son an affectionate pat on the hand. Members Only, waiting to be served, drums the counter with his hands distractedly and takes a look around the room out of mild curiosity. Meadow arrives outside, but there are no easily accessible spots on the curb, she will need to parallel park. She backs up too far, then almost hits the car in front of her trying to pull out.   Cokes arrive at the table. The couple on a date laugh and Members Only - stirring the coffee he's been brought - casts a look in the direction of the noise. Carmela asks AJ how work was and he complains that he's only getting coffees and making phone calls, but Carmela assures him he's making contacts without even realizing it. Tony, amused at his son wanting to run before he walks, reminds him it is an entry level job and playfully tosses a wadded up bit of paper at him. AJ considers this and responds with a comment Tony initially thinks is sarcastic, until being pleasantly surprised when AJ reveals it is a piece of Tony's own advice he genuinely took to heart. He shares a surprised but grateful look with Carmela... something got through to the boy after all? Outside, Meadow continues to struggle to park. Members Only steps up from the counter to use the bathroom. Tony sees movement in the corner of his eye and looks up, perhaps thinking it is Meadow, sees it is just another customer, and doesn't give it another thought. A couple of black guys, customers just like everybody else in the diner, take a look through display cases at the available food.   Meadow finally manages to parallel park. Onion rings arrive at the table and Tony informs them he ordered for the table. Each of them grab an onion ring and gobble them up hungrily. Outside, Meadow exits the car and begins to rush across the road to Holsten's. A car passes behind her. She looks mildly put out, like she can't quite believe she's running late over something so silly, and is irritated that she has to rush now. Inside, Tony considers what music to play next as the song is clearly reaching its crescendo. He reaches for the jukebox but then the bell jingles and the door opens again. He looks up to see if it is Meadow... and the screen cuts to black. There is no audio, no image for a full 10 seconds... and then the credits come up. In pure silence they play... and the Sopranos is finally over for good.  The realization came to me quickly and it's one that I still hold firm to this day. The "tension" of the final scene existed purely in my head, and purely for non-story related reasons. I watched this episode knowing it was the LAST episode of The Sopranos. I watched this scene knowing that despite a longer than normal run-time, this was probably the last scene I was watching. So I was feeling tense, I was feeling nervous, I was scared that any moment now something big and devastating was going to happen. Why did I feel that way? Because the show was ending so of course something like that was going to happen. So I projected all those same fears and tensions and certainties onto Tony. Every movement of his head, every look, every gesture or carefully chosen word was pregnant with tension for me, and thus in my head for him as well. Re-watching the scene knowing how it ended (if not WHY it ended that way) drained all that tension out. What I watched instead was a final scene of a dad having dinner with his family in a pleasant if unremarkable diner. It goes without saying this was very deliberate from David Chase, this was one of only two episodes he directed himself in the series, and the filming of this final scene was something he made a real point of putting his fingerprints all over. Every single prop, every frame, every editing choice, they are all designed to give you the impression that something is going to happen before the show suddenly just... stops. The question I then had to ask myself was... why? Why did The Sopranos end on - apart from the sharp cut to black - such an innocuous scene? To my mind, the answer is because... this is what the show was about. Yes the Mafia trappings were an integral part of the show, but right from the very start this was a show about Tony Soprano and his issues with his family. Of course it had to end not with some big bloody denouement but something involving Tony and the family, rather than the Family. Knowing that so many people were expecting some big fireworks display of an ending, Chase gave the opposite. Which isn't to say the scene isn't fascinating, it wouldn't still be being talked about 13 years later otherwise. But he ended the show the way he started it: with Tony dealing with his family. The only nod to the Mafia side of his life comes from Carmela asking about Mink and Tony telling her about Carlo. I think it is very deliberate that she takes onboard this information, frowns, and then pushes no further. They only talk about it between the two of them, the firmly put it aside once AJ arrives because now it is family time. So you get Tony sharing a moment with his son, being together with his wife, waiting for his daughter, eating onion rings and seemingly having a pleasant time when the show suddenly just ends. But another thing the show has always been at pains to show us is that nothing exists in a vacuum. Tony cannot live two separate lives as husband/father and Mob Boss, and this small island of normalcy is something the viewer knows is at serious risk in the future, whether immediate or some time from now. Tony knows it too, as does Carmela, they're not living in denial but they are setting it aside for as long as they can, as they have for significant portions of their adult lives. I said the tension was a projection, and it is, but of course Tony has an underlying tension that comes part and parcel with his job. What I projected on my first watch was the tension of knowing the show was ending. The show isn't ending for Tony, because Tony is written not as a television character but a human being, so he doesn't feel that same tension I was. His life is ongoing, and in spite of the news about Carlo there is no reason for him to walk into that diner feeling like the other shoe is about to drop. Phil is dead, he's worked out a deal with the Lupertazzis, his son appears to be doing better, his daughter after a moment of concern appears not only back on track but excelling, he and his wife are doing better than ever as a couple etc. For Tony Soprano, it "don't stop", but for us it does.  But those were my reactions to WATCHING the scene twice. What does it all mean? There are a ton of differing opinions and interpretations, and I'll talk about the one that has probably gotten the most attention/analysis for a little bit now: the theory that Tony dies at the end of this scene. The scene is very deliberately designed to allow the viewer to project their own stress, but more than that it includes any number of "clues" as to what may have happened when that sudden cut to black happened. Let's start with the door. In Tony's dreams, doors have been signifiers of great danger and death. In Calling All Cars, he finds himself at the threshold of a strange home, staring in horror at a thing on the stairwell that is the monstrous, subconscious version of his mother Livia. He steps through that door in his dream and wakes sweating and terror-stricken. In his coma in Mayham, he is told by "Man" outside the family reunion that he need only let go of his baggage and step through the door to finally have what he's always wanted. The doorway is clearly death, and he is only distracted from walking through it by the sound of his daughter's voice. In The Blue Comet Melfi shuts the door she opened in The Pilot that saved Tony's life. The same episode ends with Tony lying on a bed clutching an assault rifle gifted to him by his now dead brother-in-law, staring at a closed door through which death could come at any time, at his most vulnerable position as a mobster since he first got Made. In this episode, the door of the diner is a constant refrain. Every time the bell jingles and the door opens, Tony looks up. The final shot of the episode before a sudden cut to black is that door opening one last time. Is it the door to death opening for him at last? In Sopranos Home Movies, Tony and Bobby go out onto the lake, get a little drunk, do some fishing and start talking about murder and death. Bobby opines that he bets "you probably don't ever hear it when it happens, right?", discussing death. Sadly that wasn't the case for him, but consider Gerry Torciano in Stage 5. He's having dinner, shooting the poo poo with Silvio and suddenly he's just dead. Silvio didn't hear OR see it happening until it was done, and comments as such to Tony later. In this episode, the last thing we see Tony do is look up and then WE see and hear nothing. We get black. Tony has largely been our POV character throughout the series (albeit in third person) and now in this final moment of the show in the middle of a dinner with his family suddenly everything just goes black? Surely that suggests Tony has died? So who killed him? The scene offers a couple of possibilities, though the two black guys feels like a bit of a red herring; Tony has nearly been killed before by assassins hired because they were black and thus probably untraceable to the mob who ordered the hit. But the man in the Members Only Jacket stands out like dog's balls. He's given prominent screen-time beyond all the other extras shown in the diner. He's wearing a jacket once considered an unofficial "uniform" of mobsters. Even his move into the bathroom feels like a homage to Michael Corleone retrieving a gun from the toilet in The Godfather. Throw in little things like the numbers 38 and 22 (also ammunition calibers) being prominently shown on posters on the wall behind Tony, or the fact he's left himself exposed on his flank by his proximity to the bathroom and there's an argument to be made that he was surrounded by death the entire time he was in that diner. Even the other patrons are perhaps his life flashing before his eyes: are the couple on a date he and Carmela at a younger age? Is the scoutmaster and the scouts his regrets over not being a coach/mentor like Coach Molinaro wanted him to be?   But for me the question, again, is... why? Why would anybody kill Tony? Phil Leotardo is dead, and he was the only one who was gunning for Tony's head. You might argue that Butchie would see the peace deal as his chance to get Tony to remove Phil, then take out the last true top management guy the Sopranos had and complete the original Phil plan but with himself benefiting. Except Butchie didn't just make a quiet handshake agreement with Tony Soprano, he attended a sit-down and in the presence of another Boss of another of the Five Families made promises to end a war that neither side wanted and the other Families were sick of. Phil's death was meant to be an end to it, and Butchie - as we saw whenever he faced actual opposition - didn't have the force of personality to see things through. Hell, it's not even a given that he'd become Boss after all this, Albie had just as high a rank and a far less volatile temper. It's possible that the other Families would be pissed but figure in the end it wasn't worth making trouble over... but there's just as good a chance they might see the at-this-point highly dysfunctional Lupertazzi Family as ripe for takeover by themselves. Butchie ended the war because it wasn't popular and the little bit of extra cash they were getting wasn't worth the stress of knowing Tony and his men were out there. I simply don't see him having the confidence to make a move like this, especially so soon after establishing peace. Some people have mentioned in the past that even if Tony doesn't die in this scene, that he'd be living his life looking over his shoulder for a murder attempt from now on... but why? There's no reason to suspect the Lupertazzis won't be doing anything other than making money with them and thanking their lucky stars they got out of a potentially deadly and costly war. On top of that, why would they do it in the diner when his family were around? Sure we've seen the "rules" get broken multiple times, and Phil was killed in front of his wife and grandchildren of course... but even Uncle Junior at his most stubborn never planned to kill Little Pussy when he was with his family. Even if they were going to kill Tony in front of his family... how would they know where they were? We had it demonstrated as recently as these last two episodes that the mobsters aren't exactly rocket scientists at this. Any deviation from the norm leaves them utterly bewildered about how to handle things. They had no reason to think Tony was going to go to Holsten's, it was information that Carmela only gave to Tony, AJ and Meadow. They would be far more likely to stake out the Bada Bing or Satriale's, and if they had decided to get Tony during a family dinner wouldn't they be more likely to go stake out Vesuvio's? Also, in regards to Members Only... this may be a TV show but this isn't a movie. Tony made that clear to AJ when he fumbled an attempt to assassinate Uncle Junior before he could even get started, and spoke about how much Tony loved Vito killing his parents' murderer at the end of Godfather 2. Why would Members Only have a gun stashed in the bathroom? Why would he come out of the bathroom and shoot Tony in the side of the head instead of just pulling a gun out at the counter and shooting Tony right there in the booth, dropping the gun and walking out of the diner while everybody screamed? Just like we've seen any number of mobsters do multiple times throughout the series. Far more likely to me would be Tony getting arrested, because they sure as hell wouldn't have any problem with busting into a diner and cuffing him... hell, they'd probably love the publicity. They'd also have the manpower and technology to tail him to wherever he happened to go for dinner or anything else. But there's nothing to indicate FBI presence in that final wide shot of Meadow rushing into the diner. Even if there was, is the FBI bursting in and arresting Tony worthy of a sudden cut to black and drop in audio? I don't think so.  So what do I actually think happened? Well, you'll probably hate me and accuse me of being some lousy centrist-scum "both sides have merit" bullshit artist... but my firm and resolute opinion is that... we don't know. That's what is important, to my mind, and what I believe was a very deliberate and conscious choice by David Chase. It is vitally important that we don't know what happened then, that we don't know what happened next, and that we never, ever will. Not as some gently caress-you to the viewer or people who wanted to see whackings, not as some final furious push-back against people who claimed The Sopranos painted Italian-Americans in a bad light (it actually painted bad people in a bad light, while also showing them as nuanced, complex human beings). No, I think the point was to remind us that the show ends for us, not necessarily for the characters. That he was telling the story of a man dealing with multiple issues in his life and that this doesn't have a tidy beginning, middle and end just because it happens to be television show (please note I am not saying television shows should NOT have a tidy beginning, middle and end!). Tony Soprano existed as a person before the first scene we saw of him sitting in Dr. Melfi's waiting room, and he exists for some unknown amount of time after that final cut to black. The cut to black is for us, because we have lost our ride-along, our privileged look into Tony's life. The show started with Tony going to Dr. Melfi and reluctantly starting therapy, and that marked the beginning of not only her but OUR journey as safely detached observers of his life. We ended up getting just a little bit longer with Tony after Melfi shut the door in his face, but the ride ends for us too. We don't know what happens next, because we can't go along with him any longer. Maybe he DOES die, for any or all of the reasons and ways listed above. Maybe he doesn't get shot in the head, but maybe he suddenly collapses from a heart attack or chokes on an onion ring? Maybe he gets murdered the next day, or a week from now, or a month, or 5 years? Maybe he gets arrested by the FBI and sent to jail for life? Maybe he makes it through the trial and dies banging a stripper in the back room of the Bada Bing? Maybe he dances with his daughter at her wedding? Maybe he finds another therapist? Maybe he lives to a ripe old age and dies peacefully in his bed surrounded by loving family who bury him with high honor? Maybe Carmela becomes a big success as a property developer and dumps his rear end? Maybe she loses everything in the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and goes back to being a housewife? Maybe AJ gets his club, fucks up horribly, gets arrested and Tony does a deal like Carlo did and ends up in Witness Protection in the ultimate act of hypocrisy? The point is... we don't know. It could be any of those things, and you could argue and show evidence or belief in any of them and I'll happily argue them with you or agree with you... but I'll always say in the end that we just don't know. We never will, even if David Chase stopped loving around and straight up just told us what he wanted it to mean without walking it back... it doesn't necessarily make it so. Because he didn't film anything past that point (unless he did!), the cut to black marked the end of the show and after that it's open to interpretation. To me, that is the point of what happened, and it is something I have come to believe in more and more strongly over the years. We simply don't know, and whether you find that maddening or brilliant or both is up to you, but it doesn't change the fact that none of us can really say for certain what happened. But the final scene isn't just about how the show ended, it's an exploration of where the characters ended up as well. This scene and the one before it are notable among other things for the fact that they feature ONLY The Sopranos. Tony and Junior in the preceding scene, and Tony, Carmela, Meadow and AJ in this one. There are extras a-plenty, but none of the other supporting characters from the show exist past Rhiannon hanging out with AJ in the family home. This seems appropriate, the show was called The Sopranos after all. We get to see a little bit of how each character has ended up in this brief section: Carmela has come to terms with Tony as the only man in her life and found some equilibrium, but this is because she has also chosen to remain in denial about the darker reality of her family: Tony is still a philanderer, a criminal and a murder; AJ got so depressed he attempted suicide and now she wants to believe he's just okay, but he's also edging closer and closer to the periphery of Tony's life she never wanted for him; Meadow is on the path to great financial success but also has given up her ideals and is in danger of just becoming a somewhat more financially independent mob-wife. AJ hasn't really grown at all, he's still an arrested development case who Tony and Carmela constantly bail out of trouble. Meadow is an intelligent, capable and successful young woman who chose to live in the same denial as her mother. As demonstrated by the parallel parking scene, she is also still somebody who hasn't quite mastered the real world, though she is capable of it if she really tries: it's just that, she never truly broke away from her parents like she once wanted, and like with AJ they continue to provide for her so she never really has to truly fend for herself. But the show has always been about Tony, and there is one exchange in particular that truly sums up for me where he has ended up after all this time:   To me, this exchange is heartbreaking. At the end of season 1 in I Dream of Jeannie Cusamano, Tony takes the family to Vesuvio's in the middle of a storm. Artie takes them in, they all sit down and eat a meal together, a shining light of warmth in the chaos and darkness. Tony tells his children then to remember this, the times that were good. Now here in the final ever episode of the show, we find out that AJ of course took this to heart, because in spite of his cynicism and often expressed contempt for his father... he idolizes him. He learned nothing in school, struggled with his studies, agonized to get barely passing grades even with assistance... but he took in everything his father told him and cherished it deep inside of him. That's heartwarming. What is heartbreaking isn't that Tony doesn't remember saying it, or that he assumes those words echoed back to him are sarcastic... it's that he doesn't even recognize them as something he would have said. Despite the actual benefits of his therapy (even if they long ago reached the limit of what he could get from it) like stopping the panic attacks, becoming a more present husband and father etc (these might be more down to necessity after Carmela kicked him out) we find at the end of the series a Tony Soprano who doesn't recognize these kind words as ones he would say. He quickly tells AJ after learning he told him this that of course it is true, but this is another symptom of the toll Tony's lifestyle has taken on him. Decades of criminal acts, of murder including of his friends and even a family member, have dulled or near wiped out entirely his empathy, his ability to see and cherish the good moments, to have optimism at all. Every day seems to be some new problem he has to deal with, often of his own making, and every time things seem to be getting good some new disaster befalls him. Even now with Phil dead, he has the threat of Carlo's testimony hanging over him. The man from the end of season 1 who had been betrayed by his own mother and uncle was still able to enjoy a moment of happiness and tell his family to cherish it. The man from the end of season 6 can't seem to see a future without some darkness hanging over it. Maybe, in the end, that is Tony's "death". Despite his family being alive and Carmela actually achieving her dream of regular dinners together without it being an endless fight, despite his successes and triumphs, the vanquishing of foes and escapes from certain death... maybe Tony Soprano really is dead when the episode ends. Maybe that cut to black is a mercy for us, because we don't have to see him spiral down any further and lose what little empathy and joy he has left in his life. To see him become - like Janice - another version of the black pit of despair that was Livia Soprano, who neither of them ever truly escaped even after she died. In the end it is for you to decide for yourself, here is the scene in total, watch it again (and again and again), because you'll always find something remarkable in there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x9YACdBUrU This marks the end of my write-ups of The Sopranos. I started this over a year ago, thinking I'd be done in 6-9 months. I even foolishly proclaimed I wouldn't make each write-up as long as the ones I did in The Wire Thread, and in the end I think about 75% of them went over the 50,000 character limit for the forums. The show deserved it and more though, because even after 20 years since it first came out it remains one of the high watermarks for television. It changed everything about television, and while shows came along with bigger budgets and less restrictions in its wake, it holds up strong against any of the best programs made since it went off the air. A truly remarkable series, the likes of which we are unlikely to ever see again, full of one of the most incredible casts spearheaded by a gigantic talent the world is all the poorer for having lost. Rest in Peace, James Gandolfini, you truly had the makings of whatever the acting equivalent of a Varsity Athlete is. I just wrote over 6000 words for a scene that lasts less than five minutes, and I could have easily written more. As mentioned at the start, there is a reason this final scene ends up dominating so much Sopranos conversation. The final word I will make will be on the inspired choice of the final song, and how perfectly the last lyric we hear resonates with the viewer. For 7 years we thrilled to the antics, misadventures and yes even (especially?) the crimes of Tony Soprano. When the show cut to black and the ride finally ended, the final words we hear come from lead vocalist Steve Perry, and are about as perfect as you could ask for... and sadly go unanswered. "Don't stop." Season 6: Soprano Home Movies | Stage 5 | Remember When | Chasing It | Walk Like a Man | Kennedy and Heidi | The Second Coming | The Blue Comet | Made in America | The Final Scene Season 1 | Season 2 | Season 3 | Season 4 | Season 5 | Season 6.1 | Season 6.2 Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 03:56 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 11:56
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Thank you, Jerusalem.
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May 17, 2020 12:25
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Thanks so much for this thread and also the Wire thread. You hit on a lot of it but with the moratorium on the finale lifted, if no one minds I'll add: - That Holsten's backdrop was custom made for that scene. There's really no reason to do that unless...well...there WAS a reason - You mentioned #38 but the numbers 38 and #22 flank Tony. That' some coincidence for a modified interior set. - There's a tiger on the wall. Tony has a tiger tattoo. - The building reminds me vaguely of the big house tony visited in his coma. But that might be a stretch. - Any thoughts on what State Champs 73, Class of 77 and Class of 71 might mean? I wondered if they could refer to Tony's wedding year and the birth dates of his kids but the math isn't right at all. - A lot of people have reason to want Tony dead. And any number of people could have tailed him, his family or tipped off his location. Even a crooked cop or PI. - I think the tolling of the bell by the door chime is significant. It's unusually loud/prominent. - Agree the Members Only guy going to the bathroom is a GF1 nod. We don't automatically have to assume he's getting a planted gun though. He's shown nervously casing the scene/layout and by pretending to go the bathroom, he has a better angle (from the side) that keeps Tony from seeing his approach when he exits. When he gets up to piss, Tony's looking straight at him. - every shot of people entering is from Tony's POV. The last thing he sees is Meadow before cut to black. Just in time for Members Only to emerge from the bathroom. This write up goes into a lot in heavy detail https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/1147-2/ -
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May 17, 2020 13:51
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Thank you Jerusalem, I really appreciate all the hard work, and I would appreciate if this thread stays open to continue discussing the show as long as everyone remains interested. I also have to thank everyone for using "cut to black" because, for some goddamn reason, people have been saying that the scene "fades to black" for years.
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May 17, 2020 15:01
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the general public are dummies about that poo poo from any editing or technical perpective. evergreen tweet https://twitter.com/Sgtzima/status/1159498374808256513
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May 17, 2020 15:12
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I really like the idea of Tony being "dead" which does not necessarily mean a few seconds later there could have been a shot of him in the booth like Albert Anastasia in the barber's chair. Tony has made his choice and anything past the fade to black screen is no longer relevant.
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May 17, 2020 15:16
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Still can’t believe they whacked off Tony like that.
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May 17, 2020 15:18
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ruddiger posted:Still can’t believe they whacked off Tony like that. All over the visor and everything.
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May 17, 2020 15:25
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Dawgstar posted:I really like the idea of Tony being "dead" which does not necessarily mean a few seconds later there could have been a shot of him in the booth like Albert Anastasia in the barber's chair. Tony has made his choice and anything past the fade to black screen is no longer relevant. CUT to black Pope Corky the IX posted:
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May 17, 2020 15:35
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Thanks for your dedication and effort, Jerusalem. I was going to say ‘hard work’ but you probably didn’t consider something that obviously gives you so much happiness ‘work’. You have a good many qualities as a writer, and I greatly anticipate reading your next project, whenever that may be.
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May 17, 2020 15:42
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These are truly super and thanks a ton Jerusalem.
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May 17, 2020 16:12
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So was the high school football mural part of Holsteins (real life) or added for the set. I've tried to look at the pictures they have on their site (http://holstens.com and I can't find any interior shots of it. Edit: I missed it because they have a mural of a window now and the photos were tiny a low res 
Bip Roberts fucked around with this message at 16:20 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 16:16
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Lets continue to overanalyze, theres just something about MO and the way he enters the place. He has purpose, but he isn't comfortable with it. Of all the tales of debauchery and excess in this show, nothing encapsulates America like a family of four going out to supper...each taking their own car. Then you got poor Meadow who wouldn't drive a sheep out of a garden. Much of the rear murals behind Tony were added for the scene, adding to the suspicion of the meaning of .38 and .22. Someday I'm gonna go to that place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ies2g5po8-M codo27 fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 16:24
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Quintupling the thanks to Jerusalem. Top notch, man. I thought I had lost my place halfway through until I got what you were doing.BiggerBoat posted:
Just to shut my brain up I always assumed it was the result of Patsy Parisi having a chat with Butchie and coming to a mutually beneficial arrangement. Full support of Patsy as the Lupertazzi's point man for the now very diminished glorified crew in Jersey, in exchange for a location on Tony. Patsy has ample motive, a line on insider Sopranos family info, and had a gun aimed at Tony once already. "Patrick, why don't you come over for a nice dinner this Sunday? Your mother's making her [insert pasta]. You should bring Meadow." "Sure, but Meadow already has dinner plans with her family. Turns out they're going to that ice cream place mom loves too, remember?" "Oh. Let me call you right back." It's the only link to someone having a location enough in advance, and kinda nods to how Meadow brings death in the door with her. I know it's all intentionally ambiguous but without rationalizing something to fill the gaps I've always found the final episode frustrating (but justifiably so). Pissed Ape Sexist fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 16:39
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Hoping that The Many Saints of Newark delves into some of the myths behind Johnny Boy, Junior, Jackie and Dicki Moltisanti that tie into the show itself but show us how poo poo really went down rather than the legend being the reality that got passed down. I'm cautiously optimistic about it but worry a little that the focus on civil rights in 60's NJ might detract from the meat of the characters and overshadow that. I wonder if they'll use any clips/flash forwards from the series to keep people up to speed? They'll almost have to I think. Expecting people to remember all the nuances of flashbacks and tall tales told over a 6.5 season TV series is too much I think. I've watched the show proper around 4 or 5 times and I still sometimes get my wires crossed. Over/under odds on the infamous TV tray (so Christophuh could watch TV) showing up? Also wonder if they'll confirm/destroy the story that Tony told Chris to get him to kill that cop. I'm leaning towards thinking it was true. I guess I'm hoping the film is less of a standalone and a lot more of a cross over that digs into the reality of the "back in the day" poo poo we got from the show's characters in ways that expose their selective memories. Bonus points for me if the Rocco jacket makes an appearance. I'm unsure of the timeline and who is/is not born yet and the IMDB cast list is incomplete. I guess Tony is a teenager and it's set in 1967 (year I was born) so we need a Bingo Card: - Rocco Jacket - Butchered Meat - TV Tray - Ralphie Poker Game Heist - Johnny Boy Panic Attack - The Missing Dog Who Lived on a Farm - Johnny's Creepy Red Head "Happy Birthday" Mistress - Blowjobs Under the Boardwalk/Roadies - Harpo - Race Riots - Vietnam - RFK Assasination - Chicago DNC riots - Jack Ruby dying - Jimmy Hoffa - Henry Hill and Thomas DeSimone burglarize Kennedy Airport - Genovese/Gambino Waste Management monopoly - Tommy Luchese dies I dunno...If anyone has anything else, I'll make the bingo cards. Probably be more fun if I can stick to flashbacks but I ran out and resorted to news. Seems to me they'd almost have to touch on some real life mobsters and politicians though, right?
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May 17, 2020 16:51
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So Jerusalem's not the only one who said this, but I don't agree that the tension in the scene is just because it's the end. The way it cuts back and forth to Meadow definitely heightens tension even aside from everything else, especially since we can all probably relate to her frustration with parking. Cutting back and forth to that is a deliberate attempt to make the viewer anxious imo. I do think you can fairly say that Tony himself isn't particularly tense in the scene though, which may be what people mean. Great writeup though--I read them for every episode, so thanks for all the quality posting!
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May 17, 2020 17:37
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Pissed Ape Sexist posted:
Yeah I was always on the boat that it was Patsy who would be behind a hypothetical tony hit, he would have a line on where Tony was via-Meadow. He has plenty of motive for wanting to kill Tony, its a grudge he has been harboring for years. The other senior leadership is dead or states witness outside like fuckin Paulie who is gonna just fall in line behind the new boss. I don't know if Butchie or the Lupertazzi's really want to pull the trigger, but if one set of underlings betrays their boss, what stops someone in New Jersey's Crew from reaching that same decision and reaching out to the same loving people to sanction a hit on their boss. Tony's powerbase is gone and none of the guys left really have much loyalty, guys like Benny got beat up by loving Artie Tony's best loving friend and had to eat poo poo. Hell Little Paulie got his spine hosed up by the guys nephew and the cherry on top was Tony again loving gunning down Spoons ages ago. Patsy gets to be in charge of New Jersey, sure his crew is diminished as gently caress and he is a pun intended Patsy of New York, but he gets to be King of Ashes rather than having to sit and eat Tony's poo poo and smile. Plus due to the Meadow/Patrick Connection he can play the family card to get out of suspicion or into the succession. Sure he was almost shot in the Silvio hit, but people are at least been willing to put water under the bridge when money is on the line. Plus if the FBI is about to drop a bomb of RICO charges on loving Tony, maybe the mafia just doesn't want to see another loving Allocution ala Johnny Sack, or worse risk him flipping on the entire loving underworld. Tony essentially has shown how willing his is to throw guys to the loving wolves to get out of harms way. So on the flip side I really only buy two things, that members only guy is FBI and scoping to make sure its Tony before calling for the arrest and nothing prevents those two black guys from being FBI agents. Or one or all of those guys are to make sure Tony gets dropped publicly, but with as little collateral damage as possible. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 18:23 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 18:18
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Are there any interviews with the Members Only jacket guy where he can answer "dunno, I was just a featured extra"?
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May 17, 2020 18:21
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Bip Roberts posted:Are there any interviews with the Members Only jacket guy where he can answer "dunno, I was just a featured extra"? He said he signed a contract and can't say anything. He also said Edie Falco was very nice.
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May 17, 2020 18:32
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Sinteres posted:So Jerusalem's not the only one who said this, but I don't agree that the tension in the scene is just because it's the end. The way it cuts back and forth to Meadow definitely heightens tension even aside from everything else, especially since we can all probably relate to her frustration with parking. Cutting back and forth to that is a deliberate attempt to make the viewer anxious imo. I do think you can fairly say that Tony himself isn't particularly tense in the scene though, which may be what people mean. Oh, I absolutely do and 100% disagree. People by and large aren't talking about Tony is acting. I don't think most of it would have worked had it not been the Final Countdown. When I rewatched the final scene, compared to the first time I did so, there was almost ZERO tension, and it's not all down to knowing the ending. The final assault in Taxi Driver or the start of the fight in, say, Rocky 1 is still there on a rewatch. The slow sinking of the ORCA in JAWS gets you every time. Almost ANY bit of nervousness in this scene, however, comes from knowing the clock is ticking. On a second watch, you realize there's almost nothing going on and that any anxiety from the way it was filmed is almost completely supplied by the viewer and their own expectations, enhanced by Chase's masterful framing, cuts and overall staging. You're right that Meadow's parking scene is ratcheted up a notch, but almost all of that is STILL due to being down to the last grain of sand in the hourglass, even though I might give you that one - but only because of how much focus was committed to it. For better or for worse. I personally think it was brilliant film making and something like a blood bath, an explosion or even a courtroom or interrogation scene wouldn't have worked as well Jack2142 posted:Yeah I was always on the boat that it was Patsy who would be behind a hypothetical tony hit, he would have a line on where Tony was via-Meadow. He has plenty of motive for wanting to kill Tony, its a grudge he has been harboring for years. Wow. I was with you on part one (Patsy) but never considered for a second that MOG and the Pastry Dudes were feds. I've never seen it proffered once and, as much as I don't see it, it's still an interesting view. But why would that need to happen if the arrests and charges were already filed? Unless you're saying the FBI helped set Tony up, which I don't think you are. Having a hard time seeing that angle tbh BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 19:51 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 19:46
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I think the Meadow parking thing colors the rest of it, which yeah would otherwise be largely unremarkable. Interrupting the scene multiple times to focus on why she's a couple minutes late makes it feel like her being there is urgent in some way--how many times did the show cut over to focus on someone else's mundane struggle to get to where the rest of the characters were? It's extremely atypical, and when something's that out of the ordinary it rings alarm bells.
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May 17, 2020 19:54
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BiggerBoat posted:Wow. I was with you on part one (Patsy) but never considered for a second that MOG and the Pastry Dudes were feds. I've never seen it proffered once and, as much as I don't see it, it's still an interesting view. But why would that need to happen if the arrests and charges were already filed? Unless you're saying the FBI helped set Tony up, which I don't think you are. Having a hard time seeing that angle tbh Yeah here is the logic for the Fed Angle, 1. The Feds throughout the series have been fine with loving with the family the raids on the house of Tony, wiretapping the lamp, pursuing Adrianna, or humiliating Johnny at his daughters wedding (Marshalls not FBI). If the mob isn't supposed to touch family, the FBI isn't gonna share that compunction. Plus if Tony is with his family in a public space it reduces risk of him trying to go down in a blaze of glory. So not godfather, but Scarface. 2. Tony has been on the lam for weeks hiding from Phil and even if they pegged his safehouse are they really gonna bust down the door mid mob war and start a firefight. This is the first time he is probably alone and away from his crew in a long rear end time. However because he has been in hiding they probably want to make sure he is actually there. That Carmela isn't going to dinner or meeting some other fat middle aged italian mafioso as a cover for well... 3. Its possible they are moving fast because they think he has been tipped their hand and they need to strike before he falls off their radar again. Tony I think still has some of his exit money with Slava and Birdfeeder. Maybe this is a family meeting where Tony says their moving to Venezuela. 4. Finally maybe there actually is a hit on Tony that they have got word of and while letting him get whacked is probably not gonna lead to tears, I can see them moving to get a guy they have a strong case against into protection and at least try to flip him. 5. Sending a couple black agents to help make a public arrest would again be a calculated move to spite and humiliate Tony. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 20:33 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 20:26
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Excellent write-ups, Jerusalem. Just outstanding start-to-finish. Here's David Chase giving his own breakdown of the scene for the DGA. Bip Roberts posted:Are there any interviews with the Members Only jacket guy where he can answer "dunno, I was just a featured extra"? The only noteworthy thing I can find is an interview from the Philly Inquirer shortly after the finale aired where he said they did a full second day of shooting at the diner, but apparently none of what they shot then ended up in the final cut.
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May 17, 2020 20:42
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Jack2142 posted:Yeah here is the logic for the Fed Angle, ok, but why would they went him murdered or set him up for a hit? You guys are making good arguments as to HOW but not as to WHY. As far as I can tell, the feds have ZERO to gain whether Tony's alive or dead one way or the other. If anything, seems to me they'd actually LOSE overall if he got clipped and I can't see a scenario where "let's help Tony get murdered" benefits them at all. They certainly don't need an elaborate setup to arrest him or bring him in either so what would be that point of all that elaborate poo poo? I think some people are over thinking things, and this is coming from a dude who thinks the Bell is Tolling for Tony every time the door opens at Holsten's.
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May 17, 2020 21:07
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JethroMcB posted:Excellent write-ups, Jerusalem. Just outstanding start-to-finish. loving agree 100% and Jerusalem should lock this thread before anyone steals it and then go pitch a book. These write ups are WAY better than that (relative) piece of trash, The Sopranos Sessions and also the far superior "All the pieces Matter". Those books not only have worse writing, focus and insight but quite often make mistakes. If I were to edit such a book, I'd eliminate the second part of his last write up that seems to repeat itself in the first third but, overall, the poo poo he's written here about this show as well as his The Wire thread is far superior to the books I've read dealing with the same topic(s). BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 21:23 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 21:18
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Oh no Bigger Boat I think we have been talking past each other. I don't think the feds are killing tony in that scenario or want him dead. The entire supposition is I feel these are my takes this scene in my opinion only going down. 1. Tony is murdered by the mafia, as to who is behind it I think Patsy is the logical guy behind the move. Even if it isn't with explicit New York backing. 2. The Feds are moving on Tony now and the cut to black is him being arrested. They move on him at Holstens for the reasons mentioned above. 3. Tony goes through his life paranoid until the other shoe drops and one of the above happens eventually. I don't really see any other outcome. I think I maybe muddled the above scenarios sorry I haven't slept in 24 hrs. Edit: Actually wait... The only Fed who might want Tony dead is the female agent who just got pumped and dumped for info by Harris out of spite, but I dunno that is a pretty thin branch. I mean she isn't that dumb and figured out what just happened in that hotel room. Maybe he just undermined a huge loving case on her end to make sure his collar "survived" and she dropped that Tony might be speaking to the feds. gently caress as far as the mafia guys know he just hosed off to visit the cops after seeing his lawyer, with Bobby dead its not like he would say he is seeing junior to anyone else. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 21:37
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Something I don’t often see mentioned is that Meadow could be frantic because of the aforementioned gynecologist visit and switch of birth control. That would actually be a perfect thing for Tony to miss out on, if he was killed. That his baby girl is pregnant with his grandchild.
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May 17, 2020 21:40
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