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SaffronKit posted:If you do ever want to give it another shot, I'd say do it with a friend or goon so you can both laugh at absurd poo poo that happens (it does) and use the multiplayer death linking mechanic to roll forward through some of the enemies and traps the game starts to through at you. The other thing is while dungeon shops help, it can be more useful to just shove your gold down every elevator you can find to help build up for the next run. And for what it's worth the Ore is a very clear metaprogression currency that you 95% never spend in a run, with the other 5% being tossed into magic furnaces once you've unlocked the anvil and start getting to the point of build manipulation in lategame. I think the tax mechanic pushes you pretty hard to buy things from the shop - shop items are incredibly important for strength within a run, and if you're skipping them a lot you're going to relying a lot more on the grinding-levels version of progression, the worst one. Like, look at the run modifiers in the fountain: IIRC, "having one HP" is worth like ten levels of buffs, and "no shops" is worth fourteen. You've gotta have really grinded to feel okay with usually ignoring shops. Money sent to base is important, but shops overtake them after like five to eight runs. In my game, it wasn't uncommon for me and my friend to start new characters and make it through the third area, occasionally beyond, gaining ten or so levels along the way. Jedit posted:Hades starts doing it the bad way, and I couldn't be hosed waiting to see if that changed later because it's a poo poo game with bad controls. whoa whoa whoa what the gently caress
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May 25, 2020 17:09
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John Lee posted:whoa whoa whoa what the gently caress It's come up before, check their post history.
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May 25, 2020 17:48
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metaprogression universally sucks rear end but it's not actually roguelites' fault, it was here long before that
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May 25, 2020 18:21
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I can be into metaprogression as tutorial--some limited metaprogression at the start that's basically just there to get you familiar with the game. There are definitely ways to do it better or worse Spelunky's is great, because it lets you learn the mid to late game, but doesn't actually limit your ability to do well before you unlock them. StS, Into the Breach, FtL, etc are all nice for letting you avoid being option-overwhelmed, while also giving you that short-term goal of 'unlock everything' to keep your motivation up while the game still hasn't fully clicked for you. I, Dracula seems potentially really good, but they've hosed up this angle a bit. Your start the game with something like 3 mechanics locked (like, there are slots on your HUD that are just big lock icons that each correspond to a key), but I've played three runs so far (with the third getting fairly far) and haven't unlocked a single new mechanic. I think these mechanics work best when it's something like "one new concept added to the game per run" at the start. I also really wish it was easier to skip all this if you're starting on a new platform. Like, even just a toggle hidden deep in the options that gives you access to all content without technically unlocking it. Serephina posted:I think it was Kyzrati who found a beautiful tweet on the internet, where one user was flaming another for not knowing what "roguelike" meant: it's a game where you grind to unlock stuff, duh! ...Which kinda shows how far and wide the word was misapplied, goddamn. Roguelites, indeed. One of my students last semester wanted to write a paper on roguelikes, but when I asked him which ones he played the only one he could name was X-COM. 
OtspIII fucked around with this message at 18:42 on May 25, 2020 |
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May 25, 2020 18:39
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please knock Mom! posted:Is there actually a way to play multiplayer by inviting your friends in Monster Train? you do the custom match which lets you create a share link instead of just being public matchmaking
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May 25, 2020 18:49
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In Celebration of Violence, which is much overlooked imho, has an extremely slow metaprogression that shares currency with runs, and with new game +. so if you spend the currency after a run ends, you're broke in the new run. but if you save it, you can buy a good weapon in the pre-dungeon town, or any number of things during the run. the economy is complex and easily broken. it tends to snowball towards the later stages. in my couple of wins i've had so much money at the end i couldn't spend it all.
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May 25, 2020 19:05
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immortal redneck is another game with a big unlock tree (literally) of +life and +dmg and +crit type stuff
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May 25, 2020 19:10
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It is strange seeing steam reviews and whatnot where a poster is furious about a game not being roguelike as advertised as if their roguelike culture is not being respected and say something like "A roguelike game is one where you get stronger with every run"
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May 25, 2020 19:13
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Yeah, everyone knows that a roguelike is a game with an item identification system.
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May 25, 2020 19:14
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OtspIII posted:One of my students last semester wanted to write a paper on roguelikes, but when I asked him which ones he played the only one he could name was X-COM. Majority_of_opinions_on_roguelikes_online.txt
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May 25, 2020 19:19
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Serephina posted:
The tactical games renaissance has been huge for the genre. XCOM and XCOM 2 didn't just spawn a new wave of imitators due to its financial success - they also gave developers and designers an new paradigm for designing how a tactical combat game can work without overloading the player in needless detail or simplifying things to the point that it's not really a tactics game. My most grognardy opinion is that Into The Breach is an absolutely fantastic puzzle game.
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May 25, 2020 19:24
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*genre anarchist voice* Nethack is a puzzle game
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May 25, 2020 19:27
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nrook posted:Yeah, everyone knows that a roguelike is a game with an item identification system. X? Y? If we consider in the pure abstract that a roguelike is a systematic definition of a variable space that incorporates methods and goals, then algebra is a roguelike.
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May 25, 2020 19:28
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Lawman 0 posted:*genre anarchist voice* Nethack is a puzzle game Close. Nethack is an adventure game, in the tradition(s) of Zork, Myst, etc.
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May 25, 2020 19:31
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Nethack is an educational title, encouraging students to develop online research skills
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May 25, 2020 21:22
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Stark Fist posted:In Celebration of Violence, which is much overlooked imho, has an extremely slow metaprogression that shares currency with runs, and with new game +. so if you spend the currency after a run ends, you're broke in the new run. but if you save it, you can buy a good weapon in the pre-dungeon town, or any number of things during the run. the economy is complex and easily broken. it tends to snowball towards the later stages. in my couple of wins i've had so much money at the end i couldn't spend it all. This kind of thing is one of the aspects that prevented me from really getting into Unexplored. Money you collect on one run is used to buy supplies to help on the next run. Whether or not it's strictly necessary, it makes me feel like I can't start a 'proper' run without having already had a good run the time before.
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May 25, 2020 22:12
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Speaking of metaprogression, in Dungeonmans what is the upgrade hammer between Burnt and Charred? I somehow haven't unlocked it in 45 hours of playing and I just want to complete that list.
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May 25, 2020 22:39
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C-Euro posted:Speaking of metaprogression, in Dungeonmans what is the upgrade hammer between Burnt and Charred? I somehow haven't unlocked it in 45 hours of playing and I just want to complete that list. It's for an affix that never generates any more because the effect it gave (chance of attacking more than once) was super-unbalanced. So you have finished the list already. madjackmcmad, developer of Dungeonmans, has been working on a patch that, among other things, fixes up this particular bug.
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May 25, 2020 22:43
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Lawman 0 posted:*genre anarchist voice* Nethack is a puzzle game i mean once you've solved the inherent puzzles and know what to specifically do your winrate can pretty much skyrocket
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May 25, 2020 22:54
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perc2 posted:Nethack is an educational title, encouraging students to develop online research skills  Also effective note taking and checklist making.Anyways I just cleared castle as a dwarf valk, I vaporized my wished up (early wand of wishing lmao) SDSM by accident should I just go and reverse genocide some silver dragons for a replacement? I still have my speed boots and stuff as well but I'm still real butthurt about being stupid about enchanting. Also what should I wish for? I can provide info on my stash and stuff but I do have access to a poly wand and some other cool stuff like that.
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May 25, 2020 22:56
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Impermanent posted:The tactical games renaissance has been huge for the genre. XCOM and XCOM 2 didn't just spawn a new wave of imitators due to its financial success - they also gave developers and designers an new paradigm for designing how a tactical combat game can work without overloading the player in needless detail or simplifying things to the point that it's not really a tactics game. I know this is the roguelike thread, but what are some of these squad based tactical games that have come out in the wake of XCOM? And are any of them coop multiplayer which is the thing my group really wants but it turns out there's only like a handful. XCOM but each player controls one character in the tactical battles, basically. There was that Shadowrun game which delivered that but it was pretty mediocre.
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May 25, 2020 23:12
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A Strange Aeon posted:I know this is the roguelike thread, but what are some of these squad based tactical games that have come out in the wake of XCOM? And are any of them coop multiplayer which is the thing my group really wants but it turns out there's only like a handful. Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle is a tactical XCOM style shooter with coop. No, really. Only two player though.
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May 25, 2020 23:23
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Lawman 0 posted:
You're lawful so there's only so many artifacts to wish for (this post will be a huge spoiler btw), Grayswandir is good as pointy things go. I guess the Mitre of Holiness or Orb of Detection are OK if you want some of the protections they confer. These will blast you since they're not meant for you. You could just as well blow a wish on a dragon scale mail, unless you really want to kill a few silver dragons, not that they're a problem for you at this point. I personally usually go for gray dragon mail, but with SDSM you leave your neck free so eh. (Make sure you have some source of magic resistance that won't be taken by covetous monsters before Gehennom!) If you're really hard up on things to wish for, you can just get something silly like blessed spellbooks that are good for valkyries, or a helm of opposite alignment if you want to improve your odds on the Astral Plane.
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May 26, 2020 00:21
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I decided to gently caress around on the hard fought (in fiqhack) server before dinner with an archeologist. So I find an early throne room and the first thing that happens when I sit down is that I get a goddamn wish!!!!  Wished up some gsdm immediately
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May 26, 2020 00:38
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Nevermind I died lol. Got shafted out deeper into the gnomish mines and got ambushed by a bunch of hill orcs with a couple of create monster wands.
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May 26, 2020 03:53
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Turin Turambar posted:I wish there was a solid metaprogression in Wizard's Legend that would make me stronger, as the game is hard and there is no difficulty selection :P You get chaos gems that (can) give you stronger starts by spending them, and eventually you unlock the Chaos spells which are pretty busted and render the game largely trivial -- particularly the Chaos dash that gives you actual invuln frames instead of just dashing.
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May 26, 2020 03:56
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Lawman 0 posted:Nevermind I died lol. Oof. Condolences. Valkyries don’t need to go down into the mines, because they already get a loadstone from their quest 
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May 26, 2020 04:02
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nrook posted:Oof. Condolences. This was with a different gently caress around character. The other I'm still sitting around with wondering what to wish for.
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May 26, 2020 04:34
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Lawman 0 posted:Nevermind I died lol. Let me just tell you a personal story that might help you ascend in Nethack. I'm assuming you haven't already ascended based on how you are talking about wishes. I played Nethack on and off for about 5 years and I probably I got to the Castle maybe twice, dying soon afterwards. My problem was that I wanted lots of early wishes so I could propel myself into endgame gear quickly and be "safe" with extra amulets of life saving. I always played a Valkyrie because I read that Valkyries had an easy earlygame. Usually neutral but sometimes lawful. I played on the nethack online server. I just wanted to beat the game and ascend once. I started playing very recklessly to gain a single early wish to get GDSM or Grayswandir. Sitting on thrones, drinking from every fountain, beelining to minetown and buying magic lamps to rub. Early wands of wishing were even better. I still lost all of these games though because I was doing things like walking into lava or fighting when over encumbered. I finally ascended after being lectured by a random stranger who hung out at the nethack.alt.org chat channel and saw my most embarrassing death. He told me he had seen a lot of deaths, but that mine was very unique. You see, I had decided on a new wishing strategy. Instead of wishing for GDSM, which I might get for free from a dragon corpse, I should wish for an artifact that would be uniquely irreplacable. While Grayswandir was a very powerful weapon, I was thinking that maybe a Valkyrie did not need more offensive power, and I should get a unique defensive artifact instead so I would live longer. I settled on The Staff of Aesculapius. What wonderful defensive features. Hungerless regeneration to let me ration food better. It also gives the somewhat rare drain resistance, and a nice little heal when invoked. Of course, my very next game I very luckily got a wish from a djinn at only the third level, I immediately wished for and obtained the wonderful staff. I was a little hungry and wounded, so I immediately picked up this intelligent staff to better protect myself: A permanent record of an embarrassing death. 39. 1 killed by touching The Staff of Aesculapius. My very next game, I got a message telling me I should probably slow down my play and stop wish-scumming because it taught bad habits. I couldn't really argue the point - I died as a direct result of a wish. The stranger saw me play and said that if could make it to the castle without relying on wishes, I would probably win. I took the advice to heart left my old account enigma74 behind, starting fresh with enigma740 most definitely not related. After painfully breaking my wishscumming habits, I ascended the Valkyrie, and afterwards a Tourist without too much more difficulty. Broke the bad habits and look what happens.. enigma74 fucked around with this message at 06:32 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 06:24
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enigma74 posted:A permanent record of an embarrassing death. 39. 1 killed by touching The Staff of Aesculapius. Why did you die?
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May 26, 2020 08:24
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Jedit posted:Why did you die? Nethack has a bunch of artifacts that are picky about who they let handle them. The staff is for neutral healers only. Failing either condition gets you blasted for quite a lot of damage should you so much as touch the thing and faiing both causes it to also be impossible to pick up and use dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 09:17 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 09:07
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That said, in my experience wishing for the staff of Aesculapius is one of the better uses for a wish for neutral wizards, that thing is pretty drat handy and you don't need to swap your weapon around that much. After they've gained a few levels of course, the blast can and will kill low-level characters. In general, wishing for artifacts of your own alignment seems to me to be a good use of the castle wishes, assuming you're not missing some vital non-artifact thing from your kit due to sheer bad luck. This is kind of why neutral characters have a slight edge, most of the decent intelligent (blasty) artifacts are neutral. (My first ascension was with a tourist  )
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May 26, 2020 09:53
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Still enjoying Monster Train, the gold card system is silly but it presses just the right button for me in a way a trophy wouldn't. Once you unlock the covenants and start increasing the difficulty, any card that is in your deck when you win is turned gold (ala Hearthstone) forever. This is entirely cosmetic and it still pushes me to try cards I haven't won with yet to get more golds, without actually giving me anything that changes gameplay. Just a relatively minor reward for reaching out of my comfort zone, and it's ended with me finding quite a few new degenerate bullshit things to try.
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May 26, 2020 10:59
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Was just about to ask how Monster Train is! It looks like it has a lot more moving parts than Slay the Spire but that might just be the aesthetic scaring me off. It also looks very fun if I could get into it. Thoughts? (the card golding owns hard I love that)
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May 26, 2020 13:42
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Lawman 0 posted:This was with a different gently caress around character. I was kind of wondering how a character who cleared the castle managed to die in the mines, but NetHack can always find a way.
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May 26, 2020 13:50
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SKULL.GIF posted:You get chaos gems that (can) give you stronger starts by spending them, and eventually you unlock the Chaos spells which are pretty busted and render the game largely trivial -- particularly the Chaos dash that gives you actual invuln frames instead of just dashing. The unlock conditions for Chaos spells are such that this isn't really that helpful of advice for newbies IMO. What I ended up doing with Wizard of Legend was working to find a set of unlocks that worked well for me. Runs generate a lot of sidegrades; it's worth experimenting with them to find spells and equipment that fit your playstyle. In particular, I went for a multihit standard attack spell that you could normally cast once per cooldown, and then combined that with an artifact that added 1 extra cast to your standard attack spell. Effectively this meant I was doing 2x as much damage as usual with my standard attacks. You also need to develop a sense for when to attack and when to back off. This isn't a game about endlessly comboing targets while they sit in hitstun. Go in, get a couple of shots in, then back off because they're probably about to throw an attack at you. You have a lot of mobility and you need to make use of it to survive. Something else to be aware of; you didn't mention it, but it's good to know. You cannot run into pits. So if you're having trouble falling into pits when you try to dash over them, just run up to the edge, then dash. Oh, and a bit of pattern recognition for you: the bosses all work on the basis of "throw out X attacks, then become vulnerable for a bit". X increments by one each zone, so fighting e.g. the fire wizard in zone 1 is different from fighting her in zone 3. You can get damage in while they're busy attacking you, but save that for if you ever try to speedrun the game.
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May 26, 2020 15:00
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Impermanent posted:My most grognardy opinion is that Into The Breach is an absolutely fantastic puzzle game. I'll die on this hill: Puzzles have one solution, Problems have multiple. Into the breach is an absolutely fantastic problem solving game.
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May 26, 2020 16:24
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PG-13 SEX DUNGEON posted:I'll die on this hill: Puzzles have one solution, Problems have multiple. Into the breach is an absolutely fantastic problem solving game. If you're doing anything but punching baddies into water, you're doing it wrong. Ergo, puzzle game.
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May 26, 2020 16:30
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To get better at Wizard of Legend, unlock the stone fists basic spell and the lightning melee punch combo basic spell, and alternate building your runs around them for a little while. Fair warning, this is insanely hard at first, but using melee basics will very quickly hone your positioning, timing, patience, and ability to balance opportunistic aggression against staying safe. The stone fists are really good for forcing you to be patient, since they're powerful but sort of slow and require you to place your attacks carefully and deliberately. The lightning Fist of the Northstar flurry is really good for tightening up your ability to thread the needle between attacks, since you have to be really close to connect with it, but it shits out enough damage that wasting stuff with it feels badass as hell and encourages you to keep practicing. My best winning run ever was literally built around the electro-punch basic, the relic that extends your basic combo, and the berserker flame spell that cranks your attack speed to hell for a short time. It was an ungodly tense and difficult run, but it felt loving awesome to Karate Zeus my way through the whole loving game and beat the endboss to death with my bare hands. I even unlocked that "ULTRAAAA" achievement for completely wrecking the second boss' poo poo in a single combo. I can't even play with ranged basics anymore. I gotta get that bloodthirsty melee thrill. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 16:33 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 16:30
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Personal goal achieved, I've beaten TOME on insane. Tried out several classes and made it pretty far with a rogue and an archmage but ultimately I sealed the deal with a paradox mage. I can see why they are so lauded as the character felt pretty strong at all stages of the game. Died a couple times to losing control of my paradox and poo poo going absolutely bonkers but other that a few difficulty spikes it was pretty smooth sailing. I'm going to stick with insane from now on I think as I really enjoy the faster leveling and better loot. I might go for the insane roguelike victory since I accidentally started a roguelike run and surprised myself with how far I got. I'm also kind of interested in trying to make a really broken adventurer but I don't even know where to start. Anyone know some particularly OP skill tree combos that I could build off of?
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