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Ironslave posted:Also the first thing they jump to when handed the only known example of asymptomatic infection is to try and kill her and cut her open in the belief they can just pull the "cure" out of her. I have a friend who is a biologist who went positively apoplectic at how idiotic and unscientific their methodology was. "Let's cut the goose open and get all the eggs at once" was invoked. i think part of the reason for that is they just dont have the facilities or scientists to actually do a real job. the best they can do is dissect and hope for the best. SIGSEGV posted:You don't need to be a biologist to see that, the end of TLOU was clearly supposed to invoke "Joel is a monster who saved his surrogate daughter and hosed over the world in the process." while what the actual text supports is that Joel did nothing wrong in killing the fireflies and saving Ellie and that the only thing he could have done better is kill more fireflies. i didnt really get that from the game. yeah its definitely more ambiguous than it should be but its clear by the ending that ellie knows that joel is lying to her on some level. Zeta Acosta posted:I dont think the game wanted to be nihilistic, i think it hosed up the message it wanted to tell beyond people bad and we are the monster all along. this game's ending falls flat on its face gta iv feels like a way better execution of this idea if you end up killing darko. niko spent an entire decade hunting this dude and killed hundreds to get to him. you kill him and niko says to himself that he feels empty at the end of it. he's become a broken man. in essence, he's no different from darko who sold out his mates for money as niko ends up betraying everyone he worked with in LC for money and becomes the very thing he's been hunting this whole time. that to me is way more poignant than ellie sparing abby and lev at the end.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:55
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Stux posted:cinema sin number 1: why didnt the game delve deep into biology and take 3 hours to explain why in the wasteland the options available to them are limited “Why didn’t people headcanon my text to deliver its point better than it actually did, you all knew what I was TRYING to say gosh!!”
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Jun 20, 2020 19:55
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Stux posted:cinema sin number 1: why didnt the game delve deep into biology and take 3 hours to explain why in the wasteland the options available to them are limited The simple solution is don't include side content which completely guts the intended message of your story, and subverts your sequel in a bad way. This isn't extrapolation like "why didn't they take the eagles all the way to the volcano" in lord of the rings, it's closer to fawkes saying "sorry even though I'm radioactive immune, I can't go into this lethal radioactive chamber and pull the switch to save the day because it's your destiny" in fallout 3. They hosed up bigtime.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:56
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Captain Oblivious posted:“Why didn’t people headcanon my text to deliver its point better than it actually did, you all knew what I was TRYING to say gosh!!” it was extremely obvious and unambiguous and people who like ellie so want joel to be the good guy look for any reason for him to be the good guy to the point that earlier in the thread people were group misremembering an audio log that said "this will work" as "this wont work"
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Jun 20, 2020 19:57
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oh look its happened again lol
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Jun 20, 2020 19:57
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SIGSEGV posted:You don't need to be a biologist to see that, the end of TLOU was clearly supposed to invoke "Joel is a monster who saved his surrogate daughter and hosed over the world in the process." while what the actual text supports is that Joel did nothing wrong in killing the fireflies and saving Ellie and that the only thing he could have done better is kill more fireflies. and joel kills the only surgeon who was a direct threat to his life, he can let the other three live. i guess he should have killed everyone so they couldnt trace him back!
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Jun 20, 2020 19:58
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Stux posted:oh look its happened again lol Being self aware of being wrong doesn't make you less wrong.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:58
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None of my points mention the audiologue, just what is shown about the Fireflies before you even arrive at the drat hospital. SIGSEGV posted:You don't need to be a biologist to see that, the end of TLOU was clearly supposed to invoke "Joel is a monster who saved his surrogate daughter and hosed over the world in the process." while what the actual text supports is that Joel did nothing wrong in killing the fireflies and saving Ellie and that the only thing he could have done better is kill more fireflies. It's this, they intended it to be what Stux says, but what they actually wrote is that the Fireflies are useless idiots.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:00
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lovely Wizard posted:Being self aware of being wrong doesn't make you less wrong. 
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Jun 20, 2020 20:00
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Eimi posted:None of my points mention the audiologue, just what is shown about the Fireflies before you even arrive at the drat hospital. I mean it is possible they just don’t know or get that what they presented doesn’t communicate what they wrote
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Jun 20, 2020 20:02
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the fireflies are written as being pretty consistently right, the "revolutions" that either throw them out or straight kill them do out of an imagined fear of what they might do and in every single case leads to the remaining society collapsing entirely. real life scientists, very smart and competent people, have done stupid stuff like playing around with a nuclear core and killed themselves, it shouldnt be a shock that still happens after an apocalypse where your safe guards if they even exist anymore are even worse. the part about the fireflies that is bad is they also want to try and ressurect the us gov wholesale which is completely inane, but wrt their doctors and scientists they are not shown as wrong unless you want them to be wrong so you dont have to feel bad about joel being a bad person.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:04
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Stux, Joel can both be an rear end in a top hat (which he is) and the Fireflies can be poorly written and implemented to such a degree that it undercuts the ideas it was angling for. They're not mutually-exclusive. My actual understanding of biology is barely a highschool level and supplemented by osmosis, and even my first reaction was that it's insane to kill your only sample without any other research being conducted or methods explored.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:04
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Zeta Acosta posted:and joel kills the only surgeon who was a direct threat to his life, he can let the other three live. i guess he should have killed everyone so they couldnt trace him back! Yeah, like the message of this series is "Either don't kill anyone, or kill everyone. Half-assing this poo poo just comes back to bite you". Really, that's it. Do either more or less revenge, don't do a lukewarm amount of revenge.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:05
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Brother Entropy posted:so you're saying we now we have proof that tlou2 is offensive enough to be probatable on the SA forums "Hey fellow devs! Just finished the final touches on our latest cinematic where the only trans character in my game gets lynched! Don't worry, it's a just a dream sequence lol"
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Jun 20, 2020 20:05
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Ironslave posted:Stux, Joel can both be an rear end in a top hat (which he is) and the Fireflies can be poorly written and implemented to such a degree that it undercuts the ideas it was angling for. They're not mutually-exclusive. My actual understanding of biology is barely a highschool level and supplemented by osmosis, and even my first reaction was that it's insane to kill your only sample without any other research being conducted or methods explored. the game explicitly outlines what other research and methods have been conducted that lead to this point
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Jun 20, 2020 20:05
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It’s almost like the dilemma with Ellie at the end of the first game is insanely contrived for cheap drama and doesn’t withstand surface level scrutiny.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:06
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Ironslave posted:without any other research being conducted or methods explored. I would go a step further and even say all avenues of research should be 100% exhausted before trying anything with even the mildest chance of death. Not even out of safety for your test subject, but because she's a essentially a resource of nearly infinite value to them.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:06
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Avynte posted:"Hey fellow devs! Just finished the final touches on our latest cinematic where the only trans character in my game gets lynched! Don't worry, it's a just a dream sequence lol" After seeing the thing about them focus testing the story and Neil sitting behind glass measuring peoples jaw clenches this is probably real
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Jun 20, 2020 20:14
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Every character is the hero of their own story. Joel killed so many people for Ellie, and form his perspective it was justified. Ellie killed so many people for Joel, and from her perspective, it was justified. Abby killed Joel, and from her perspective it was justified. The people Joel killed were not justified from Abby’s perspective. Abby’s killing of Joel was not justified from Ellie’s perspective. Or not even justification, but acceptance. The point to me is that just like everyone is the hero of their own story, they’re also the villain of someone else’s story. We rooted for Joel and Ellie because they were our protagonists, but from a different perspective they were mass murderers.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:14
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I don’t really think the issue is the story beats themselves more how they’re told. The game starts out both too slow and too fast at the same time. It races towards Joel’s death but does nothing to really establish why we should care. It assumes that everyone playing the game has spent the entirety of the PS4’s life cycle thinking about the events of the first game. It’s desperate to get to this moment but does nothing to adequately build up to it and undercuts it massively because of this. I can see why they did it this way. I think it’s obvious what they were going for in terms of how it’s executed but it absolutely doesn’t work. So far (I’m like 6 hours in) it’s bad story telling that reeks of “haha they won’t see this one coming. No way they’d expect us to do that!” And then fails to really do anything else. The large (but not totally open) hub setting adds to this sense of weird pace too. Ellie bolts to Seattle as quick as she can but gameplay wise it’s very meandering and almost lethargic which is at odds with what the game is telling you is happening. Also for all the jokes about Kojima just wanting to make movies I think it’s pretty funny that the fact Druckman just wants to make prestige TV shows has gone completely unremarked.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:15
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Captain Oblivious posted:It’s almost like the dilemma with Ellie at the end of the first game is insanely contrived for cheap drama and doesn’t withstand surface level scrutiny. Which is probably why they don't try to explore it that much when they give you the Abby/Fireflies side of the narrative, so you get the world's first vengeful defeated terrorist militia with no particular politics.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCwNPYIQym0 The doctor was an rear end in a top hat who fights Marlene over her concerns of "hey maybe we dont butcher this girl". The dilemma of the first game is nullified by something that they themselves wrote.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:16
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Dewgy posted:Being fair, that’s actually a pretty good summary of the synagogue scene. I am in awe at this chain of posts. This game is not only badly written, pretentious and ill thought out but all three at the same time enough that we have to Poe's law the whole thing. E: also perhaps edit a note in the probe reason to explain that actually the post was accurate?
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Jun 20, 2020 20:20
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Phoix posted:After seeing the thing about them focus testing the story and Neil sitting behind glass measuring peoples jaw clenches this is probably real *Druckman leaning over an employee's shoulder* "Yeah, I'm gonna need to you tighten up the noose on level 3"
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Jun 20, 2020 20:23
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Every character is the hero of their own story. Joel killed so many people for Ellie, and form his perspective it was justified. Ellie killed so many people for Joel, and from her perspective, it was justified. Abby killed Joel, and from her perspective it was justified. The people Joel killed were not justified from Abby’s perspective. Abby’s killing of Joel was not justified from Ellie’s perspective. Or not even justification, but acceptance. The point to me is that just like everyone is the hero of their own story, they’re also the villain of someone else’s story. We rooted for Joel and Ellie because they were our protagonists, but from a different perspective they were mass murderers. Every character is the hero of their own story. Aerith killed so many people for Cloud, and form her perspective it was justified. Cloud killed so many people for Aerith, and from his perspective, it was justified. Sephiroth killed Aerith, and from his perspective it was justified. The people Aerith killed were not justified from Sephiroth's perspective. Sephiroth's killing of Aerith was not justified from Cloud's perspective. Or not even justification, but acceptance. The point to me is that just like everyone is the hero of their own story, they’re also the villain of someone else’s story. We rooted for Cloud and Aerith because they were our protagonists, but from a different perspective they were mass murderers.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:24
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Stux posted:the game explicitly outlines what other research and methods have been conducted that lead to this point And they are pretty pathetic by any standard, also some complete idiot firefly decided to create a reservoir population of fungus infected monkey which will persist past the moment when every human zombie is dead. And if they can't do the preliminary work, there's no point to cracking the guarantee seal on the teen's cranial integrity.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:27
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Zeta Acosta posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCwNPYIQym0 it's pretty funny that Marlene asks him multiple times what he would do if it was Abby on the operating table and he always changes the subject
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Jun 20, 2020 20:30
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After all these years goons still unable to process that someone may do something irrational, perhaps morally reprehensible, if it means protecting a person they love.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:33
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Avynte posted:After all these years goons still unable to process that someone may do something irrational, perhaps morally reprehensible, if it means protecting a person they love. Yep, the Firefly head surgeon was willing to murder Ellie to maybe one day protect Abby even if the chance was nil. The surgeon was wrong, and it's awful that some goons don't get that.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:35
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lovely Wizard posted:Yep, the Firefly head surgeon was willing to murder Ellie to maybe one day protect Abby even if the chance was nil. The surgeon was wrong, and it's awful that some goons don't get that. I think you just cracked the code! Humans....are....bad? 
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Jun 20, 2020 20:36
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SIGSEGV posted:And they are pretty pathetic by any standard, also some complete idiot firefly decided to create a reservoir population of fungus infected monkey which will persist past the moment when every human zombie is dead. And if they can't do the preliminary work, there's no point to cracking the guarantee seal on the teen's cranial integrity. going to say its the post apocalypse and what they are able to do is now severely limited, perhaps
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Jun 20, 2020 20:39
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furthermore why dont they just use the jedi mind trick on everyone or train the stormtroopers to shoot straight, cinema sin 2 and 3
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Jun 20, 2020 20:40
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Avynte posted:I think you just cracked the code! It's a scale . You have justified killing someone and unjustified killing of someone. Not all lives are equal. The life of a baby is worth more than the life of serial killer cannibal, for instance. Within the context of the story, the Fireflies were extremely evil and stupid. Like that guy from the 1950s who would do ice pick lobotomies in the name of science. Killing a murderer (Jerry/Surgeon) was the good/moral thing to do (Joel), (Abby) killing a person who killed murderers (Joel) was bad.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:42
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RottenK posted:A pro-wrestler I like is streaming this game on twitch, time to tune in and change my own opinion based on whether he enjoys it or not I would literally pay to watch Macho Man play this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfnQ18pAUoc Dapper_Swindler posted:id say bioshock infinite was worse for a variety of reasons but there are definitely similarities. I was bummed as hell that the awesome combat sequence they showed at E3 or whatever with the gigantic arena and all the skyhook lines and blimps coming in never made it into the game and it was just boring and linear. I never finished it but I showed the demo to ask before giving up and they said it's not in the game and it sucks that stuff keeps happening. People mention Anthem a lot and if the game was like that E3 "gameplay" video I would have bought it just to fly around nice looking jungles.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:49
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Stux posted:going to say its the post apocalypse and what they are able to do is now severely limited, perhaps This world is dying and yet I'm not building a spaceship to take us all to a better one with what I find in my kitchen. This is because I am capable of performing a basic feasibility study, something that is beyond the fireflies. In addition, if I gently caress up something in my kitchen, I'm not destroying anyone else's chances to save the world, while the fireflies are doing just that, and going from their run down, incompetent dump to other places that have their poo poo together, there likely is someone out there that might be able to help save the world and is being denied by the firefly clusterfuck that forced Ellie into hiding. ND managed in TLOU1 and TLOU2 to write text, actual text, that makes it so that Joel is the good guy, while trying to write him as the bad guy. That take rare writing power.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:53
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Zeta Acosta posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCwNPYIQym0 Wow, the surgeon being extremely pro killing Ellie just makes this all the funnier. Up to the point of threatening Joel with a scalpel in game one.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:55
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SIGSEGV posted:This world is dying and yet I'm not building a spaceship to take us all to a better one with what I find in my kitchen. This is because I am capable of performing a basic feasibility study, something that is beyond the fireflies. Yep, they hosed up on so many levels its comical. Not to mention Ellie actively murders all the other members of the 'Kill Joel!' group EXCEPT THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE. So killing dozens if not hundreds of people including people that likely had loved ones (who were murderers) taken from them by Joel? A-OK! Killing the one that did the actual killing? Oh Noooooo, that's a step too far, it'd destroy Ellie's last bit of soul even though she killed 4 or 5 people in the same shoes as Abby specifically. Plus she's at risk of Abby coming back and killing her in her sleep when she's busy trying to learn how to play guitar with less fingers which is actually still doable.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:59
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SIGSEGV posted:This world is dying and yet I'm not building a spaceship to take us all to a better one with what I find in my kitchen. This is because I am capable of performing a basic feasibility study, something that is beyond the fireflies. nope in the first game joel is unambiguously the bad guy unless you specifically have a need to have the guy you played as be the good guy
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Jun 20, 2020 21:02
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Stux posted:nope in the first game joel is unambiguously the bad guy unless you specifically have a need to have the guy you played as be the good guy I... don't disagree so much as question the degree and emphasis on "unambiguous" here, but "nuh-uh" is a very poor way of trying to argue a point.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:04
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lovely Wizard posted:Yep, they hosed up on so many levels its comical. It's funny to me that after all this time, and in their studio's magnum opus they still can't avoid this cliche, it's the same thing as in uncharted 3 when Drake inexplicably goes out of his way to save the main villain after just murdering hundreds of her goons, at least in that one she still died.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:04
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