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Eimi posted:
"I know I killed dozens of people within this game canonically if not hundreds, including literally everyone part of the kill joel as revenge for the fireflies party, but killing you Abby would really make me the bad guy, some sort of Last of Us, too. So I'll let you live even though you could murder me while I sleep as revenge for your family, friends, and society I ended."
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Jun 21, 2020 00:43
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The Joel ghost at the end saying "Wait Ellie, she's the last of us.....too" would've redeemed the ending.
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Jun 21, 2020 00:50
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DrNutt posted:Making sure your animations look good so people don't endlessly mock them on the internet is a good thing. Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that making their game unmemorable for being poorly animated wasn't the same as making the game good. Just look at the fluidity of this animation there is no way any one would make fun of this in any way! https://imgur.com/rwrXlvE
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Jun 21, 2020 00:50
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Is there a specific term for the brand of performative wokeness you get when it is used primarily as a shield from criticism? Like what we are seeing with this game and what we saw with the Ghostbusters remake, The Last Jedi, and arguably also even with the whole Christina Helper (I think that was her name?) back at Bioware in the day. Where the piece of media has massive glaring flaws but it is extremely difficult to discuss them because in addition to people rightly complaining about those issues, you have literal Nazis screaming about women and minorities sullying their moopies and bideo games. I'd say it's just poisoning the well, but that would imply the fault lies solely with the Nazis. There's definitely a deliberate effort on the part of the media creators to capitalize on what they have done and use it as a shield.
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Jun 21, 2020 00:51
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Is there a specific term for the brand of performative wokeness you get when it is used primarily as a shield from criticism? Like what we are seeing with this game and what we saw with the Ghostbusters remake, The Last Jedi, and arguably also even with the whole Christina Helper (I think that was her name?) back at Bioware in the day. Where the piece of media has massive glaring flaws but it is extremely difficult to discuss them because in addition to people rightly complaining about those issues, you have literal Nazis screaming about women and minorities sullying their moopies and bideo games. Don't forget EA trying to say "yeah, Mass Effect 3 is a perfect product, its homophobes attacking us for gay romances". It's hard to think of a term that encompasses all media. Maybe deflective scapegoating? RottenK posted:The people using "hey look at these screaming bigots" as a distraction from criticism are bad, but the actual screaming bigots are still much worse. Yeah but they're a non-factor. People will threaten to murder you over the internet over disagreeing about the post office, let alone any sort of intellectual criticism. "but the screaming bigots" is a loving stupid argument for stupids.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:00
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Is there a specific term for the brand of performative wokeness you get when it is used primarily as a shield from criticism? Like what we are seeing with this game and what we saw with the Ghostbusters remake, The Last Jedi, and arguably also even with the whole Christina Helper (I think that was her name?) back at Bioware in the day. Where the piece of media has massive glaring flaws but it is extremely difficult to discuss them because in addition to people rightly complaining about those issues, you have literal Nazis screaming about women and minorities sullying their moopies and bideo games. The people using "hey look at these screaming bigots" as a distraction from criticism are bad, but the actual screaming bigots are still much worse.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:01
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BexGu posted:Just look at the fluidity of this animation there is no way any one would make fun of this in any way! i assume that this made some sort of sense in your head
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Jun 21, 2020 01:03
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Is there a specific term for the brand of performative wokeness you get when it is used primarily as a shield from criticism? Like what we are seeing with this game and what we saw with the Ghostbusters remake, The Last Jedi, and arguably also even with the whole Christina Helper (I think that was her name?) back at Bioware in the day. Where the piece of media has massive glaring flaws but it is extremely difficult to discuss them because in addition to people rightly complaining about those issues, you have literal Nazis screaming about women and minorities sullying their moopies and bideo games. I've seen it called "minorities as ablative armor", it can be deployed in other ways and places, for example calling people antisemitic for criticizing banks. (Which itself is quite an antisemitic thing to do, but there goes the world, I guess.) E: for the Helper thing, it was entirely lovely people, shovelfuls of them. SIGSEGV fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:04
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the disconnect between those who think the story works and those who think it doesn't rises from the contradiction that this is a game trying to speak about violence while still constrained by violence being the only way to interact with the world. It's the primary issue with video games these days trying to evolve and do more with the medium, to varying results. I think the story and ending works well, and the way each character has fleshed out motivations and justifications is worth praising itself because video games rarely go there, for good reason. I like how Ellie and Abbey mirror each other, while being inverses- Abby gets her revenge and Ellie doesn't, but the outcomes in either situation is unfulfilling because it's the obsession and pursuit that's destructive. The thing is I don't think the audience for this game would have been happy if they solved the narrative-gameplay contradiction by making this a Disco Elysium game where there's a few combat set pieces and the rest is all character interaction.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:05
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Is there a specific term for the brand of performative wokeness you get when it is used primarily as a shield from criticism? Like what we are seeing with this game and what we saw with the Ghostbusters remake, The Last Jedi, and arguably also even with the whole Christina Helper (I think that was her name?) back at Bioware in the day. Where the piece of media has massive glaring flaws but it is extremely difficult to discuss them because in addition to people rightly complaining about those issues, you have literal Nazis screaming about women and minorities sullying their moopies and bideo games. No, because it's pretty genuinely bullshit. Performative Wokeness exists but in none of the cases you cited did it change the fact that there was a concentrated effort by lovely Nazis to attack the game because of what they viewed as "SJW" stuff. The quality of the final product does not overly matter because all of this started before the product was even out in every single case. The Nazi groups also intentionally take advantage of stoking fan anger or trying to stoke fan anger over something that might be controversial to make their side seem louder by hyper-focusing on the idea. Like the mere fact that you decided that The Last Jedi was an example of "performative wokeness" shows just how effective that strategy is because no, there was in fact a legitimate long-term effort by lovely Nazis which worked as you can see with Rise of Skywalker doing everything it could to appease them short of killing Rey off in the first 3 minutes. That isn't to say every use of "the evil Nazis are being mean to my thing" is true but the issue is that very often it is true even if they're using it as a shield to deflect from real criticism. Trying to write it off as performative wokeness ignores that it isn't one or the other. lovely Wizard posted:Yeah but they're a non-factor. This is 100% bullshit. The screaming bigots do in fact manage to have impacts even if that impact is just causing studios to be more hesitant about things or by causing employees to quit or hide themselves because they don't want to risk being targeted. Pretending this doesn't exist ignores that we have countless pieces of evidence that it does exist. If you have the ability to pretend that the internet Nazis don't matter then you have the privilege of not being someone who has been their target. Because constant harassment, digging into every statement you've made in the past, attempts to hijack or steal your information, and holding a grudge that follows you for years afterwards are in fact super lovely even if the person made a bad game/movie/whatever and are very common. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:05
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Eagerly looking forward to the Horizon sequel where Aloy comes across a somehow-still-alive Ted Faro and forgives him for everything.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:06
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BexGu posted:gently caress closing the thread, TLOU2 is only gonna get remembered for the various meme's, time to have fun with it. Lmao this is great.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:07
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RottenK posted:i assume that this made some sort of sense in your head yeah there is no reason to animate a character hitting a wall after being falcon punched? specially when that character was written as trans community worst fears and gets the poo poo beated out of him almost the entire game?
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Jun 21, 2020 01:07
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RottenK posted:The people using "hey look at these screaming bigots" as a distraction from criticism are bad, but the actual screaming bigots are still much worse. Correct. But you can be upset at more than one thing. What I think is the solution to fascists is something that might get Lowtax in trouble so let's not get into that. But 'death to fascism' and 'artists shouldn't use the deranged shrieking of Nazis as an excuse to ignore valid criticism' are not mutually exclusive points of view. Deflective scapegoating seems about right. Or maybe something like liberal strawmanning? Since arguably it's a strawman fallacy at its heart; they are portraying the insane 'criticisms' of the Nazis as the position being held by everyone. 'If you didn't like Ghostbusters 2016, you're a misogynist.' They're ignoring the argument of their critics and pretending it is something else.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:08
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ImpAtom posted:there was in fact a legitimate long-term effort by lovely Nazis which worked as you can see with Rise of Skywalker doing everything it could to appease them short of killing Rey off in the first 3 minutes. That's more due to china poisoning our media. Can't have certain ideas, can't have certain themes, can't have more than x amount of black characters. Compare Avengers Endgame's box office global vs china and Black Panther's box office global vs china, and you'll see that the hatred and racism of the chinese market is a bigger influencer than "nazi groups". (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 21, 2020 01:09
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Internet nazi culture warriors were doing their thing because of course they were, but I do think there was an attitude that leaks where you beat the poo poo out of the beloved characters of a huge AAA property with a random gigantic woman could only be funny to internet nazi culture warriors. I'm not very interested in the story the game is trying to tell but I am interested in the reactions of completely unspoiled players and (eventually) people like Druckmann/Gross talking candidly about the leaks, as long as they don't try to pin everything down on GamerAntePavelic
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Jun 21, 2020 01:10
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Mandrel posted:what is the game talking about Revenge as something that leads to nothing other than more pain and suffering. You having to kill someone because they're about to kill or hurt you or someone you love is one thing (characters in passing talk about when they first had to kill someone that wasn't infected and while it's bittersweet in the moment, clearly it's just part of living in that world). The difference between that and hunting them down is very different. Also, the concept of rigid justice comes into play. At what point is it pointless, and really becomes not justice? Also who you think of as villains depends a great deal on tribalism, which this game touches on a great deal (with well written scenarios and characters I might add).
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Jun 21, 2020 01:11
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lovely Wizard posted:That's more due to china poisoning our media. Can't have certain ideas, can't have certain themes, can't have more than x amount of black characters. Compare Avengers Endgame's box office global vs china and Black Panther's box office global vs china, and you'll see that the hatred and racism of the chinese market is a bigger influencer than "nazi groups". No, that's a convenient boogieman. It conveniently pushes all the racism and hatred over to a "scary foreign power." That isn't to say China has no impact on movies at all but trying to pretend like that sort of thing is the result of Just China is just weird xenophobia as a cover for the omnipresent racism among Americans.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:12
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LionArcher posted:Revenge as something that leads to nothing other than more pain and suffering. You having to kill someone because they're about to kill or hurt you or someone you love is one thing (characters in passing talk about when they first had to kill someone that wasn't infected and while it's bittersweet in the moment, clearly it's just part of living in that world). The difference between that and hunting them down is very different. Also, the concept of rigid justice comes into play. At what point is it pointless, and really becomes not justice? So I know Neil thought the message was "revenge is bad," but is the actual message "revenge is so good that you need to be really thorough with it" because that's what it seems like. Like the most of the problems in the game are caused by not killing enough people. I think the actual message of the game is "kill their friends and family too."
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Jun 21, 2020 01:12
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RottenK posted:The people using "hey look at these screaming bigots" as a distraction from criticism are bad, but the actual screaming bigots are still much worse. there are idiot rightwingers mad about this game but that doesnt make disliking this game fascism or, far more importantly, liking this game leftism, and the way massive corporations have psyopped people into thinking the media you consume is anything resembling political action is gross
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Jun 21, 2020 01:13
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Eraflure posted:I wish dogfans had taken over the internet ??? Is this like onlyfans
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Jun 21, 2020 01:14
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LionArcher posted:Revenge as something that leads to nothing other than more pain and suffering. You having to kill someone because they're about to kill or hurt you or someone you love is one thing (characters in passing talk about when they first had to kill someone that wasn't infected and while it's bittersweet in the moment, clearly it's just part of living in that world). The difference between that and hunting them down is very different. Also, the concept of rigid justice comes into play. At what point is it pointless, and really becomes not justice? drat this game sounds boring as gently caress
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Jun 21, 2020 01:14
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ImpAtom posted:No, because it's pretty genuinely bullshit. Uh. What? Disney walked back The Last Jedi to appease nazis? Like. The idea that you're sexist/nazi/transphobic for not liking stories with "progressive" elements is ridiculous and what businesses are using to shield themselves from criticism. The last jedi for instance...it was just objectively bad. It's absolutely true that awful people are going to be awful. But I've found movies, shows, video games, and so on with good scripts and content can easily have introduce or have progressive ideas and nobody cares about it because a high quality watermark far outstrips any crazy peoples capacity to try to engage in a culture war. When you see this kind of thing break out, the crazies are definitely using the opportunity to engage in culture war but it's on the back of solid criticism at a product, I've found.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:16
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LostRook posted:So I know Neil thought the message was "revenge is bad," but is the actual message "revenge is so good that you need to be really thorough with it" because that's what it seems like. Honestly that's most of my problem with the game as i'm playing it. The situations are always conceived where they have a deliberate choice to finish it but they let the loose ends live which is why things keep going. It really muddies whatever point the story's trying to make. They actually added in some difficult fights which is nice.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:16
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i amused how divisive this game is beyond the usual political culture war poo poo. like its beyond the woke/chud fights because i have seen folks on both sides either hate or love it. Theres a deeper and more fundamental problem in that the third person shooter well has been tapped but thats all anyone knows how to make anymore
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Jun 21, 2020 01:16
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Zeta Acosta posted:yeah there is no reason to animate a character hitting a wall after being falcon punched? specially when that character was written as trans community worst fears and gets the poo poo beated out of him almost the entire game? The reason to animate a character hitting a wall after being punched is that the character is in a fight and got punched hard. Fairly sure that BexGu wasn't trying to use the clip to criticise tlou2 for its incredibly poo poo treatment of the sole transgender character.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:17
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wow wild the nazi guy only took about 3 pages to say something insanely racist who couldve predicted this turn of events
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Jun 21, 2020 01:18
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Meme Emulator posted:Theres a deeper and more fundamental problem in that the third person shooter well has been tapped but thats all anyone knows how to make anymore yeah i guess if you only play the games on the top of the shelf in gamestop lol
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Jun 21, 2020 01:18
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LostRook posted:So I know Neil thought the message was "revenge is bad," but is the actual message "revenge is so good that you need to be really thorough with it" because that's what it seems like. I mean the issue with that reading is that it comes from the assumption of "Well, it's easy to kill people and I would do as much of it as possible if I could." If you are a beep-boop robot or a complete monster then, yes, murdering every possible connection to your enemies in order to avoid revenge is the 'logical' idea. It's just also utterly abhorrent and would involve doing things that even a lot of genuinely loving awful people would not do. Video games treating life and killing as cheap does mean they are not a great choice for this kind of narrative unless you explicitly are crafting a game where killing is rare to nonexistent, but within the confines of the story LOTU1 (and from what I hear TLOU2) try extremely hard to show that even people who have turned to murder and violence to survive have limits. It's just the gameplay that fucks it up (though I guess the It's So Sad You Kill People thing was part of their attempt gameplay-wise to make it work?)
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Jun 21, 2020 01:18
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lovely Wizard posted:That's more due to china poisoning our media. Can't have certain ideas, can't have certain themes, can't have more than x amount of black characters. Compare Avengers Endgame's box office global vs china and Black Panther's box office global vs china, and you'll see that the hatred and racism of the chinese market is a bigger influencer than "nazi groups". extremely normal anyway close this thread and ban the top 30 posters
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Jun 21, 2020 01:18
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Nelson Mandingo posted:When you see this kind of thing break out, the crazies are definitely using the opportunity to engage in culture war but it's on the back of solid criticism at a product, I've found. lol
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Jun 21, 2020 01:19
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LostRook posted:So I know Neil thought the message was "revenge is bad," but is the actual message "revenge is so good that you need to be really thorough with it" because that's what it seems like. If the message of your game is "Violence breeds violence" and the only way you can interact with the world is by killing people then the game is telling you that in the end its going to be this way, and you cant get around violence and the cycle of revenge. So in that case you might as well have your main character love killing and being a psycho
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Jun 21, 2020 01:19
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Panzeh posted:yeah i guess if you only play the games on the top of the shelf in gamestop lol coincidentally that's also the only way 'what if revenge...is bad???' and 'to the bad guy it's you who is the bad guy' can seem like novel story devices
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Jun 21, 2020 01:19
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Endorph posted:the secret is the people using it as a distraction are often also bigots, just in a more acceptable way Oh we're in complete agreement here. I don't like this game and I'm against spending money on things to "own the chuds" (unless you're spending it on a good charity or something actually useful like that). I guess i come off as a tlou2 defender because im much less negative about it and don't think that it's the new Andromeda, but I just don't like how overly invested some people are into being mad about something that really isn't interesting enough to care about this much. Reminds me of captain Marvel, though I don't remember if anyone on SA jumped onto the hate bandwagon about that film. RottenK fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:20
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ImpAtom posted:I mean the issue with that reading is that it comes from the assumption of "Well, it's easy to kill people and I would do as much of it as possible if I could." If you are a beep-boop robot or a complete monster then, yes, murdering every possible connection to your enemies in order to avoid revenge is the 'logical' idea. It's just also utterly abhorrent and would involve doing things that even a lot of genuinely loving awful people would not do.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:20
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Started last night. The announcement trailer makes sense now. Fuckin’ A. Had to pause the game for a bit to decompress after that.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:21
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Panzeh posted:yeah i guess if you only play the games on the top of the shelf in gamestop lol E: Oh dude I thought i was in the LF Games thread. Lol.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:22
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the characters being constantly sabotaged, brutalized, and eventually undone by their own virtuous qualities is a good idea, the problem is that it was already done in the last game to a tee
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Jun 21, 2020 01:23
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Endorph posted:the issue i think is trying to have it both ways. the characters are meant to be driven by only revenge and thus violent sociopath (thats bad) but also the plot only keeps going because they show mercy or let people get away (this is good, going by the former being bad) but then more bad things happen because of that, so the message becomes that the bad things could have been prevented if theyd been more violent sociopaths yeah i would buy the idea that killing is tough enough as is if there wasn't so much dehumanizing behavior on display, especially in the gameplay- characters casually talk about mass executing their enemies which doesn't jive with the idea Meme Emulator posted:My bad dude!!!! I guess I have to painstakingly write out "In the AAA Gamespace" every time I make a statement like that so I dont get sniped at. After all functioning humans with brains will definitely think im talking about celeste or spelunky with that comment there's like a zillion games coming out every year, there's tons of choice
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Jun 21, 2020 01:23
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Woofer posted:Started last night. If you want to discuss your experiences with your ongoing playthrough you should post in the other tlou2 thread. This thread has a lot of unmarked spoilers being posted with no warning.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:24
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