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FCKGW posted:I think the important thing to remember was that the sudden lockdown was supposed to buy is time to figure out the best path forward. There’s really no point in bemoaning that some places could have stayed open or not because early on we had no clue what to do. As more data trickles out, in hindsight we can talk about what should and should not have been done but it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t the right choice in the moment. Right but if we squandered that time and didn't actually use it to find a way out of this, then it was a bad decision. The "best path forward" they came up with was basically to give up and just let the virus run its course.
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Jun 26, 2020 18:26
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It's important if you're feeling despair, to remember that our first and most important goal was to bend the curve so that our health system wasn't overwhelmed. We actually achieved that. Secondary was to bring cases so far down in combination with greatly increased testing so that we could reach a point where contact tracing was feasible. We have massively increased the availability of testing but we failed to get cases down to that low point statewide, because of our willfully ignorant, FYGM ingrained cultural attitudes, which was probably inevitable. Without contact tracing, it is and was always inevitable that we would see the curve head right back up: because we also can't (or have decided we won't) afford to keep the main street economy shut down for six or twelve or eighteen months. So that all sucks, but: we did bend the curve and that has saved countless lives, because basically everyone who gets coronavirus and develops severe symptoms has a hospital bed they can land in, as of now. And we also actually did give the system time to accumulate more ventilators, develop better treatment protocols, and we're three months closer to effective treatments or vaccines than we were in march. We really are in a better place now than we were then, even if we've now got as many or more cases than we did then. We ought to have acted the way south korea did, but our society is too heavily invested in individualism, defiance, pig-ignorant nationalism, and prideful obstinancy to ever have done what they did, which was a combination of swift governmental competence and extremely high rates of dutiful citizens willingly obeying very strict rules. Plus, of course, nationalized health care systems. So we're not doing as well as we could, but we're still doing way way better than like florida or texas, and in twelve months, I'll wager our death toll per capita will be way way lower than in those states, and we can and should be proud of that, even while we mourn the avoidable and stupid loss of life we have and will suffer. Meanwhile, for those of you who have kids: just do your best. Kids are more resilient than we tend to give them credit for.
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Jun 26, 2020 18:32
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:I feel this loving post deep in my bones. My kid is telling people that the parks are closed because we don't want people to catch the sickness, and they're 3. They actually do rather well wearing a mask. One thing that's been hitting my wife and I hard has been them asking to see their grandparents. Half are local, so we relented and have been doing some outside hangouts (though with rising cases in our area recently, we've been having talks with the older folks about risk now), but the other half are further away and with worse comorbidities. The kid asks about once a week to go see them (at their house! they insist) and I have to say we still can't, and as someone who had/has poor relationships with grandparents I have worked hard to reverse that for my kid but this whole thing is making it difficult again! The kid's also been at daycare for about a month now after it closed up back in March, but again, cases in our area are rising so we're probably going to take them out again. I can work from home so it turns into a, "do work any time wife is home or kid is asleep and you might keep up" thing but then it becomes the same day to day thing every day. I managed that for almost two months, but it was rough and I started feeling in a rut, for lack of a better term.
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Jun 26, 2020 18:56
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Leperflesh posted:It's important if you're feeling despair, to remember that our first and most important goal was to bend the curve so that our health system wasn't overwhelmed. We actually achieved that. I think this is a far too optimistic assessment. We locked down shortly after the EU did. They emerged from lockdown with the virus on the ropes. We emerged from lockdown having barely made a dent.  Success vs. failure. Millions of Americans kicked in and sacrificed financially/emotionally/socially, just to watch the government squander the time we bought them. There has been no relief, no plan, and many feel their sacrifices were wasted. You will never again be able to ask Americans to lockdown like that. If they tried again, about 30-40% would completely ignore it. That was a our one chance and we wasted it. Now, no matter what we'll try you'll have a huge contingent of Americans who have either decided that they DGAF about the virus, or lost faith in any government intervention and will be non-cooperative. I don't think anyone is saying we should have just kept everything open. The public has been asked to bear the burden of dealing with this crisis, I think its fair to criticize the anemic government response.
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Jun 26, 2020 19:15
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In this, the California thread, I thought it was clear I was talking about California, and not the US as a whole.   We bent the curve, and while cases and hospitalizations are both now rising again, this long period of basically flat cases (accounting for rising testing) gave the state a lot more time to be ready for the uptick we're now experiencing. e. And I think it's fair to criticize even the California government response: I wish Newsom had done for the whole state, what the Bay Area did, and at the same time. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jun 26, 2020 |
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Jun 26, 2020 19:18
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I sympathize with all the parent goons in this thread, and don't take this as criticism, but people shouldn't be having more than two kids, both for their sake and the planet's. Preferably just one.
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Jun 26, 2020 19:29
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Cup Runneth Over posted:I sympathize with all the parent goons in this thread, and don't take this as criticism, but people shouldn't be having more than two kids, both for their sake and the planet's. Preferably just one. Yeah we opted for just one for this reason (years past had been talking more 2 or even 3) and if we feel the need to add more, we are going to foster/adopt.
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Jun 26, 2020 19:33
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The school sitch is really loving nuts because space being at a premium in California means we shove too many kids into incredibly tiny spaces. To my knowledge the kid places that stayed open were able to maintain social distancing and keep kids in small pods. Doing that on my 1500 student campus will necessitate making 1000 of those kids stay home.
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Jun 26, 2020 19:36
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:Sorry man, that sounds really difficult Also exercise helps a LOT. It took my parents waking me up at multiple pre-discussed times (I still set “wishful thinking” alarms and “get the gently caress up right now” alarms) to get up on time when I was a teen. If it’s possible to get him up for morning runs it might make the other things a little easier. But I can’t imagine having so much on my plate right now and my parents didn’t have to deal with me during a stay-at-home order/plague with other kids in the house. That’s rough. Tbh I JUST found out I have ADHD because I’m having the same loving problem with lack of routine & structure (obviously been dealing with it forever but the current situation exasperated it). Just went back to work this week and literally put “make morning & weekend schedules” on my to-do list. Even though I know running makes my brain clearer I’ve still only managed to get out once this week...  On one hand I’m happy to be back at work for the socialization and routine but on the other hand I’m PISSED Newsom has hosed this up so bad. My work has implemented staggered schedules, masks in public spaces, gloves and routine disinfectant in shared areas, mandatory testing... but bars and gyms and pools have re-opened. So it just feels like we’ve been thrown to the wolves and are staving off the inevitable. I’m slightly encouraged to see so many people in my bubble go from ‘west coast liberal’ to being pro-UBI, pro-BLM, pro-defunding police, etc. But then I see photos from the shutdown protest in Huntington Beach or read about Orange and Ventura counties and it doesn’t feel like enough. I’ve never wanted to work overseas more than I do right now, and that’s literally been my lifelong dream. Who knows when we’ll be let back into other countries lol!!
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Jun 26, 2020 19:54
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:Sorry man, that sounds really difficult He's been on meds for like 8 years and still won't ever remember to take them in the morning unless we hound him for 30 minutes while he's still in waking up mode, or force feed them to him. And if he does, by some miracle, take them, we'll later ask if he took them and he can't remember. If he doesn't take them, he's an absolute disaster, which sounds terrible. He's definitely a list person, but he'll check 5 things off at once, do one of the 5, then forget to do the other 4 and whoops he's been watching youtube for 4 hours. He needs a list, but definitely needs checked in on regularly to make sure he didn't forget anything. Anyway, I didn't really mean to make this into a pity party post, but man this poo poo is taking a toll on everyone in my family, myself included, and I'm usually the calm collected one of the family. Just wanted to let Zebra know that he's not alone. HelloSailorSign posted:My kid is telling people that the parks are closed because we don't want people to catch the sickness, and they're 3. They actually do rather well wearing a mask. Yeah, my parents just flew in from across the country and were an absolute massive help. They'd watch the twins while we got catch-up poo poo done around the house. It was immensely helpful and wished that we didn't live 2000 miles away. They're scheduled to fly back out here in September because flights were cheap, but with that curve shooting skyward, who knows what's going to happen. I'm glad they got their visit in when they did. Meanwhile, my sister lives near my parents (and 'only' has 2 kids), so they see them all the time. It's tough. Cup Runneth Over posted:I sympathize with all the parent goons in this thread, and don't take this as criticism, but people shouldn't be having more than two kids, both for their sake and the planet's. Preferably just one. You're not wrong, but as any parent would say, I wouldn't trade any of them for anything. My twins (my first kids, the other 3 are my step kids) have completely changed everything I've ever thought about kids.
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Jun 26, 2020 19:57
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I mean with a kid I get to do the things my parents never let me do, like provide them with a tiny bow and arrow set and eventually take up swordplay. Eventually, when they're older, it'll be rockets.
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Jun 26, 2020 20:51
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Hawkperson posted:The school sitch is really loving nuts because space being at a premium in California means we shove too many kids into incredibly tiny spaces. Yeah, schools being shut down suck rear end and distance learning isn't the same. But holy gently caress having them open would be insane. A local daycare had one staff person test positive, then another a week and a half later. Place is shut down for at least a month to be safe and everyone is being tested. That's a place with maybe 50 kids, so scale that up to 2-4,000 and see how likely it is that those campuses would even have a chance to remain open after one case.
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Jun 26, 2020 20:59
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Our school district is supposed to re-open August 1st.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:00
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Leperflesh posted:In this, the California thread, I thought it was clear I was talking about California, and not the US as a whole. Bending the curve is not a victory. When you compare us to any other nation besides Brazil and Russia we are failing miserably. To use a football analogy, we're losing the game and we've just used our last timeout. Now, if that that timeout had been spent figuring out a game winning play, then it was worth it. Instead, however, it looks like we did not use it effectively, and now we're right back to losing the game the same way we were before. Class Warcraft fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jun 26, 2020 |
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Jun 26, 2020 21:03
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I hope nobody thought I declared victory. I've described the goals that were set out back in march (bend the curve) and said that we did that. We did. We should have done more, but we didn't. I'm trying to help people not despair and maintain perspective. We could have done better, but we also could have done a lot worse.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:05
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Leperflesh posted:I hope nobody thought I declared victory. I've described the goals that were set out back in march (bend the curve) and said that we did that. We did. We should have done more, but we didn't. I'm trying to help people not despair and maintain perspective. We could have done better, but we also could have done a lot worse. Describing the point of the lockdown as simply bending the curve is moving the goalposts. The point of the lockdown was to bend the curve and buy time for a solution to the crisis. We achieved the former and completely failed on the latter.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:09
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I'm sorry someone lied to you and said we would "find a solution to this crisis" via this lockdown.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:13
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It's a cycle for the next 18 - 36 months. Huge spread, health system overloads, strict shelter in place, people die, spread slows, shelter eased back, huge spread, system overloads, strict shelter, people die, over and over. This cycle cannot be broken in this country, it's already too far Late Stage Capitalism. The federal government won't end it, the states won't end it, too many citizens are loving idiots. So get used to the cycle then in a few years consider your options; stay and hope that there will be constitutional amendments and a massive overhaul of the federal government and judiciary, or gently caress off to a nation state that isn't failed. And await climate death.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:49
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droll posted:gently caress off to a nation state that isn't failed.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:58
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Arsenic Lupin posted:You think anybody is going to want American refugees after our policies of the last centuries? Trump alone has blown any remaining goodwill. There are going to be millions of Americans trying to get out and nobody particularly feeling like absorbing their plague-ridden asses. didn't the federal government suspend passport office operations in like march
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Jun 26, 2020 22:02
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Leperflesh posted:I'm sorry someone lied to you and said we would "find a solution to this crisis" via this lockdown. Weird how in most places the lockdown has led to a stable reduction of coronavirus cases down to negligible levels. It's almost like bending the curve was supposed to prevent overall infections and not just delay them two months. If I didn't know any better I'd say we'd done a bad job of handling our pandemic, considering that California now has more daily new cases than all of Europe combined.
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Jun 26, 2020 22:04
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droll posted:gently caress off to a nation state that isn't failed. And await climate death. lmao that a dying America (+/- balkanization) wouldn't nuke uhhh everyone else if excluded by the world economy.
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Jun 26, 2020 22:50
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HelloSailorSign posted:lmao that a dying America (+/- balkanization) wouldn't nuke uhhh everyone else if excluded by the world economy. I secretly hope that america’s nuclear arsenal is just as rotted and hollowed out by financialization as everything else in this god forsaken country and so fails spectacularly when called into action
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Jun 26, 2020 22:55
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droll posted:So get used to the cycle then in a few years consider your options; stay and hope that there will be constitutional amendments and a massive overhaul of the federal government and judiciary, or gently caress off to a nation state that isn't failed. And await climate death. It's too late for a revolution. Brace for the final pollution.
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Jun 26, 2020 23:00
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Old news but this was pretty neat: https://twitter.com/DSAEastBay/status/1275999936308379653?s=19
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Jun 27, 2020 00:25
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Class Warcraft posted:
Those countries did those things by doing a lot more than just a lockdown. It wasn't the lockdowns that achieved those results: it was lockdowns, massive testing immediately, following up on testing with aggressive quarantine policies and contact tracing, and having societies that are willing and able to obey lockdown orders. The phrase "bending the curve" is explicitly about delaying and reducing a peak: it's not, by itself, about bringing cases down to or close to zero. By the time any lockdowns were implemented in the US, the idea of getting cases back to zero was already basically abandoned; we were just trying to avoid the worst-case scenario of what had happened in Italy (and wound up happening in NYC) of hospitals being rapidly overwhelmed with patients. We successfully did that. It's fine that you (and I agree) don't accept that merely bending the curve was an adequate or sufficient response. It was, nevertheless, important and worth recognizing. I don't know really why you're taking such issue with my pointing out, in response to despair-posts, that the situation today is better than the situation was in early March. We gave our hospitals more time to prepare for the coming onslaught. No, we didn't stop the virus; we had to act in early February to do that reasonably, and we had to do far more than just have a closed businesses and please stay at home (not much enforced) order to achieve that starting in March. But yes, we did give our medical personnel and infrastructure a couple of extra months to prepare, and that's good.
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Jun 27, 2020 01:01
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Our government is a farce led by Trump, absolutely. However you really can't over emphasize the poisonous attitude of the individual above all else, and a complete hatred of collective action in America. The posion pill of individual responsibility blasted by the right for the last 50 years has set the stage for this. The lockdown and wearing masks is a successful strategy in other countries. It will never be here as long as these attitudes remain. What you have is the best America can do. People will always give you the middle finger here, refuse to wear a mask, and show up at town halls to scream about 5g. America protects individual freedom above all else. In this case it's the freedom to not wear a mask, the freedom to ignore the shut down, and the freedom to risk your life if you so choose.
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Jun 27, 2020 01:22
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Leperflesh posted:societies that are willing and able to obey lockdown orders. You know what helps people obey lockdown orders? Allowing them to have shelter, food and roses WHILE staying home. America collectively decided "Nah gently caress that go to work, I think they're taking issue with you acting like this is some kind of victory. Coming 50th place when you're 'the greatest country in the world' or 'the 5th largest economy in the world' isn't a victory. We get what you're saying but it's just bullshit noise. droll fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 01:38
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Leperflesh posted:Those countries did those things by doing a lot more than just a lockdown. It wasn't the lockdowns that achieved those results: it was lockdowns, massive testing immediately, following up on testing with aggressive quarantine policies and contact tracing, and having societies that are willing and able to obey lockdown orders. This is precisely my point - we should have been doing this during our lockdown because we won't get another (for two reasons: our lovely economic system can't handle it and because a ton of people have lost faith in government directives). Something like 30-40% of Americans won't even wear masks anymore and have completely given up on any sort of social distancing. If we were going to take any other steps to control this that required collective participation, we missed our chance. Now the only way this ends is when a vaccine is ready for the general public. quote:The phrase "bending the curve" is explicitly about delaying and reducing a peak: it's not, by itself, about bringing cases down to or close to zero. By the time any lockdowns were implemented in the US, the idea of getting cases back to zero was already basically abandoned; we were just trying to avoid the worst-case scenario of what had happened in Italy (and wound up happening in NYC) of hospitals being rapidly overwhelmed with patients. This argument assumes that the point of the lockdown was only to bend the curve. I think many Americans assumed the lockdown was meant to give time for a comprehensive response to the virus (aka what most countries did). quote:I don't know really why you're taking such issue with my pointing out, in response to despair-posts, that the situation today is better than the situation was in early March. We gave our hospitals more time to prepare for the coming onslaught. No, we didn't stop the virus; we had to act in early February to do that reasonably, and we had to do far more than just have a closed businesses and please stay at home (not much enforced) order to achieve that starting in March. But yes, we did give our medical personnel and infrastructure a couple of extra months to prepare, and that's good. In what world are we better off than we were in March? 30+ million Americans are out of work (which means they lost their health insurance, by the way), unemployment benefits are running out, millions of Americans will soon be homeless because we didn't do anything to shore up their housing situation, infections are at an all-time high, and a large proportion of the country has stopped listening to any health directives. Things are about to get so much worse than they were back in March.
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Jun 27, 2020 02:00
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adoration for none posted:Old news but this was pretty neat: But without cops in the schools who will Lol I just checked the tweet comments before posting this and the first one is someone asking about stopping school shootings. Neolibs and chuds are so predictable.
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Jun 27, 2020 02:02
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If the US collapses the entire global financial system does, there is not really going to be anywhere left to run to. Seriously, there is no likely set of conditions where the US collapses/Balkanizes, etc. and the rest of the world is just hunky dory.
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Jun 27, 2020 02:24
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I give up. Folks just aren't emotionally receptive to any tidbit of good news right now, and I get it.
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Jun 27, 2020 02:29
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Jun 27, 2020 02:35
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Also just a reminder that agin, the people being huge morons and going out to bars and such get all the press, but that’s because everyone being responsible and staying home is effectively invisible, even if there are a lot more of them.
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Jun 27, 2020 02:44
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Leperflesh posted:I give up. Folks just aren't emotionally receptive to any tidbit of good news right now, and I get it. The realization that the last three months have been an absolute, complete waste of time and that there’s no end in sight is kind of a mental drain tbh
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Jun 27, 2020 02:45
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I'm gonna regret this
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Jun 27, 2020 02:51
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Leperflesh posted:I'm gonna regret this
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Jun 27, 2020 02:53
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That's not what I meant, but I know what you mean, so it's all good
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Jun 27, 2020 02:54
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SA Forums poster: We only had 200,000 people die so far! What a victory! *every other developed nation records far fewer deaths per capita* SA forums poster: Wait, why are you upset and not celebrating??
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Jun 27, 2020 03:03
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Centrist Committee posted:That's not what I meant, but I know what you mean, so it's all good I feel bad about picking on you, but droll posted:SA forums poster: Wait, why are you upset and not celebrating?? this sort of flagrant repositioning of what I actually said is mega-frustrating
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Jun 27, 2020 03:06
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