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thespaceinvader posted:Congratulations are probably appropriate, albeit yeah, I chose a hell of a time. I understand  I made my first pro-trans post on FB this last week and also revealed something that happened to me in the context of sexual assault in women's bogs that only one other person knew about before. (I have mentioned it on here before but FB is in my name not my UKMT stage name). Only 1 'reaction' so far but I know people will have seen it. (I have made 1 sort of pro-trans comment on a public page which was literally just an article share without comment) about 2 weeks ago. As someone who tends to avoid confrontation I found it quite a tough thing to do, especially I have at least one raving anti-trans women (but 99.5% good in all other respects) person on my list. Yeah I'm a cowardy custard who hates conflict. Page snipe: 188 is that some kind of Adolf Hitler Heil type number for the white nationalists?
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Jun 29, 2020 17:04
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Guavanaut posted:I mean god drat how difficult would it be to say "Black Lives Matter is a movement that comes out of opposition to structural racism and extreme violence within certain police forces in the United States. Britain is different, our police began in Peelian Principles, not as armed fugitive slave patrols, and I think we can be proud of that here, while investing in our local communities." or some poo poo. Or just "I think the tories have defunded the police plenty, but what they haven't done is replace them with any services that could render them less necessary" But that would get in the way of sir keir's cop hardon.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:05
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now that I've circled back round to ironic detachment, I love poo poo like this UK public 'demanding fairer economy' after coronavirus crisis EXCLUSIVE: High-quality public services, good jobs, protection for the planet and a reduction in inequality are among the demands the UK public are making according to a new YouGov poll maybe if UK public wanted all that stuff then UK public shouldn't have voted for the Tories 
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Jun 29, 2020 17:10
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OwlFancier posted:I have some faith in the fact that far right ideology is inherently exclusionary, I don't think they have the ability to mass appeal to anyone other than white cishet dudes, who, inshallah, will become a smaller minority over time. Yeah, all they can do is get a temporary majority and then - oh, they liquidated everyone else. Re: government, I actually agree Keir is poo poo but not for exactly the same reasons as people have said. The opposition’s real job isn’t and should not be to merely become the government. It is to challenge the government and create pressure for changing things more to its own liking (ie the liking of its leadership - not its membership because they will always want too many incompatible things). The republicans in the US under Obama didn’t try to present themselves as a government in waiting. They set out to frustrate everything the government did, just because. This ironically ended up giving them so much credibility that they found themselves in government even with Trump as leader but I don’t think that was the real goal. Labour under Jeremy Corbyn was a very effective opposition. Not measured by column inches or whatever but by the fact that the current government is in some small ways adopting or floating socialist policies to head off the threat of another challenge. It got them scared. It was not calculated to win and it didn’t. Keir seems to be trying to win the next election as leader of Labour. If he does, his team will implement some policies that will be better for the poorest than a Tory government would have done. As of right now I have no idea which approach actually improves things more. I know that fight to the death is more satisfying. I suspect that the optimal outcome for the people who most need help is cycling between the two so that when the Tories are weak Labour takes over and passes good laws and when they are strong it pressure them to suck less but that’s a lot less satisfying than pushing for only ever WAR or appeasement don’t stop can’t stop.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:10
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ronya posted:politics by focus group Cheers for the sincere response; figured you might have more insight into the thinking behind all this...let’s say studied neutrality than me. Tbh I dislike Starmer intensely and cannot see him doing anything but further eroding trust in Labour’s values if he were to win a GE. I do think it’s very unrealistic to expect the ex head of the CPS to come out swinging for anarchosyndicalist community dispute resolution based on restorative justice though, he would become a hilarious gammon joke faster than you can say ‘forensic’. Not sure Corbyn would have ‘taken the bait’ as you put it to that level either, but I think he would have done a much better job of leading conversation about the unfairnesses in the system and proposing solutions. Also good on you spaceinvader, you’re a brave person as well as a good poster - if you ever get stick for it remember there are plenty of solid people on your side
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Jun 29, 2020 17:12
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forkboy84 posted:WHAT loving JOB ARE YOU MEANT TO BE APPLYING FOR YOU GODDAMN SOCIOPATHS? I've been doing job searches in Glasgow and it's just care work to cover for the staff that have Covid. It's essentially demanding that everyone without a job go in and become frontline healthcare assistants at a time when training is non existent. The government really seems to want to kickstart a second wave. Guavanaut posted:I mean god drat how difficult would it be to say "Black Lives Matter is a movement that comes out of opposition to structural racism and extreme violence within certain police forces in the United States. Britain is different, our police began in Peelian Principles, not as armed fugitive slave patrols, and I think we can be proud of that here, while investing in our local communities." or some poo poo. Black lives mattering doesn't poll well with over 60's who identify as Labour voters despite voting tory at every general election so it's not happening. We're back to politics as it was six years ago, nothing mattering, the Tories acting with impunity and Labour desperately trying to fit in a moment that's already passed by the time they've workshopped a response. Except ten times worse.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:13
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Gonzo McFee posted:I've been doing job searches in Glasgow and it's just care work to cover for the staff that have Covid. It's essentially demanding that everyone without a job go in and become frontline healthcare assistants at a time when training is non existent. Especially cool when devolved governments are at least attempting to think about treating Covid more seriously than Westminster but the DWP policy is entirely London-based. Boris & friends doing a good job turning me back towards indy
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Jun 29, 2020 17:15
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:As someone who tends to avoid confrontation I found it quite a tough thing to do, especially I have at least one raving anti-trans women (but 99.5% good in all other respects) person on my list. You done good though! It's only helping them if people stay silent, and who knows maybe she'll start to think about things - or at least won't be as quick to voice her bad takes It's the kind of stuff that gets easier once you've started doing it, and you always have ukmt for ideas if you're not sure how to respond to a thing
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Jun 29, 2020 17:20
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Shogi posted:Cheers for the sincere response; figured you might have more insight into the thinking behind all this...let’s say studied neutrality than me. Tbh I dislike Starmer intensely and cannot see him doing anything but further eroding trust in Labour’s values if he were to win a GE. I do think it’s very unrealistic to expect the ex head of the CPS to come out swinging for anarchosyndicalist community dispute resolution based on restorative justice though, he would become a hilarious gammon joke faster than you can say ‘forensic’. Not sure Corbyn would have ‘taken the bait’ as you put it to that level either, but I think he would have done a much better job of leading conversation about the unfairnesses in the system and proposing solutions. I don't think you're going to get anything other than nickle and diming from Starmer, everything will be measured and very restrained. He's finally pulled ahead of Johnson in the opinion polls and that's what he's looking for. I would bet that his team's calculation is that all the disaffected Corbyn supporters will either bite the bullet and vote Labour anyway, vote for minority party that makes no meaningful difference or simply not vote. Those last 2 options are obviously less ideal but at the very least they wont vote Tory and that might be enough in the end. Labour have 4 more years in opposition so what they actually 'do' right now is far less important than the narrative they can try to build about the party in peoples minds and any relationship they can build with the press.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:20
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forkboy84 posted:Especially cool when devolved governments are at least attempting to think about treating Covid more seriously than Westminster but the DWP policy is entirely London-based. Boris & friends doing a good job turning me back towards indy Yeah I'm back to supporting independence out of nothing but wanting to be cut off from England burning itself to the ground but they'd 100% do everything they accused the EU of doing during Brexit to us. https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1277635418746425352 I'm laughing like Caleb from Blood at the sheer abyss that is British Politics for the next five to infinite years.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:20
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uggghhh how is labour so poo poo now. i really don't care about politics as much as most people here but even i don't think im gonna vote for labour now even though i know that basically means my vote is even more worthless.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:24
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Gonzo McFee posted:I'm laughing like Caleb from Blood at the sheer abyss that is British Politics for the next five to infinite years. I feel like contempt and jeering laughter is the best way of dealing with a Labour party this utterly vacunt [edit] Also, trying to see if Keir Sterner had anything to say about water cannon leads to an illuminating section of 'The UN Convention Against Torture (UNCAT): Ninteenth Report of Session 2005-06' in which Keir argues that using attenuating energy projectiles (impact rounds) - which the College of Policing Advanced Professional Practice website describes as "not designed for crowd control" - doesn't run the risk of human rights violations because context. kingturnip fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 29, 2020 |
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Jun 29, 2020 17:26
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1277635418746425352 Lmao great move from Starmer
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Jun 29, 2020 17:30
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my mp is decent and it's a really marginal constituency but if starmer keeps doing this poo poo every time he opens his mouth then I'm not sure I'll be able to bring myself to vote for whatever milquetoast reformist platform he ends up campaigning on but obviously he'll win over all the gammons who hated Corbyn by virtue of not being Corbyn, they only hated Corbyn specifically and not the entire communist Labour party, so he doesn't need my help leafleting or canvassing or anything
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Jun 29, 2020 17:32
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kingturnip posted:I feel like contempt and jeering laughter is the best way of dealing with a Labour party this utterly vacunt https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1277547792823660545?s=19 Old men with baby deer arms attempting to do pushup on the floor of a crumbling building as the world goes to poo poo in a plauge is some heavy handed loving satire but I'm laughing anyway!
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Jun 29, 2020 17:32
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I've thought of what could get me to come around on Keir: challenging Boris to a game of Russian roulette. Do it Haircut
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Jun 29, 2020 17:35
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XMNN posted:my mp is decent and it's a really marginal constituency but if starmer keeps doing this poo poo every time he opens his mouth then I'm not sure I'll be able to bring myself to vote for whatever milquetoast reformist platform he ends up campaigning on Yeah, did a brief skim of the replies under Farage's tweet and the most common sentiment was "he still can't be trusted because he kneeled before". I wish Labour the best of luck with their new target demographic.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:39
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Gonzo McFee posted:Black lives mattering doesn't poll well with over 60's who identify as Labour voters despite voting tory at every general election so it's not happening. We're back to politics as it was six years ago, nothing mattering, the Tories acting with impunity and Labour desperately trying to fit in a moment that's already passed by the time they've workshopped a response. Except ten times worse.  to connect with real working patriots or whatever tosh, policing by consent is one area where we can at least be proud to not be America. It's far from perfect, police do kill people and then people called Keir Starmer doesn't prosecute them, but I'm thankful that my interactions with county police are more likely to be two vaguely bored guys in a Vauxhall Vectra demanding to know if I live round here than fifteen space marines leaping off a tank and repeatedly body slamming me over a parking ticket until I die.That'd be a nice out for him not look like a clueless idiot to BAME voters and to get some Dixon of Dock Green is better than the yankees points with over 60's who identify as Labour voters. There's even plenty of room, like OwlFancier said, to get some jabs in about the Tories defunding the police already. Instead we get this poo poo. 
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Jun 29, 2020 17:41
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thespaceinvader posted:You folks have helped me understand that I'm non-binary, in particular, currently IDing as non-binary man, pronouns he or they.  congrats! gender is a weird and a gently caress, so congrats on figuring your stuff out. there's a trans thread in CCCC if you want to chat to trans goons, it's generally a chill place.blues thief posted:Yeah, did a brief skim of the replies under Farage's tweet and the most common sentiment was "he still can't be trusted because he kneeled before". I wish Labour the best of luck with their new target demographic. look if we just make vague gestures at both sides and never express a solid opinion on anything then everyone will think we agree with them, and nobody will see through this at all or question the vague gestures that they weren't supposed to pay attention to
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Jun 29, 2020 17:46
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Angepain posted:look if we just make vague gestures at both sides and never express a solid opinion on anything then everyone will think we agree with them, and nobody will see through this at all or question the vague gestures that they weren't supposed to pay attention to What's the term? Constructive ambiguity?
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Jun 29, 2020 18:27
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Aramoro posted:I don't think you're going to get anything other than nickle and diming from Starmer, everything will be measured and very restrained. He's finally pulled ahead of Johnson in the opinion polls and that's what he's looking for. I would bet that his team's calculation is that all the disaffected Corbyn supporters will either bite the bullet and vote Labour anyway, vote for minority party that makes no meaningful difference or simply not vote. Those last 2 options are obviously less ideal but at the very least they wont vote Tory and that might be enough in the end. I didnt know he was ahead in the opinion polls! you wouldnt guess it to read this thread. if that's true then the above calculation looks justified tbh. i imagine he's trying to get away from identity politics because the cities and their BAME and LGBTQ+ inhabitants are increasingly labour anyway and the red wall feel idpol penalises hard/non-working white people. and corbyn was all about idpol and by extension so was his anointed successor who gave him 10/10 the question is, will rishi be able to surf to power because people will be thanking him for furlough money and being rich glamorous and polished AND give people the chance to say I cant be racist I voted for the UK Obama...?
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Jun 29, 2020 18:29
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Aramoro posted:I don't think you're going to get anything other than nickle and diming from Starmer, everything will be measured and very restrained. He's finally pulled ahead of Johnson in the opinion polls and that's what he's looking for. I would bet that his team's calculation is that all the disaffected Corbyn supporters will either bite the bullet and vote Labour anyway, vote for minority party that makes no meaningful difference or simply not vote. Those last 2 options are obviously less ideal but at the very least they wont vote Tory and that might be enough in the end. He's pulled ahead in personal rating but the Tories are still clear in the actual polls.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:31
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It's clear the public want Starmer to lead the conservative party.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:37
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Breath Ray posted:I didnt know he was ahead in the opinion polls! you wouldnt guess it to read this thread. if that's true then the above calculation looks justified tbh. i imagine he's trying to get away from identity politics because the cities and their BAME and LGBTQ+ inhabitants are increasingly labour anyway and the red wall feel idpol penalises hard/non-working white people. and corbyn was all about idpol and by extension so was his anointed successor who gave him 10/10 lol this is literally how New Labour lost Scotland. And you'll always be a racist you disgusting little scrote. Edit: I'll penalise as many Hard White People as I can.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:38
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forkboy84 posted:He's pulled ahead in personal rating but the Tories are still clear in the actual polls. any other leader would be 20 points ahead
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Jun 29, 2020 18:40
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Congrats space Invader Hope all is well
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Jun 29, 2020 18:40
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forkboy84 posted:He's pulled ahead in personal rating but the Tories are still clear in the actual polls. It's a start from where he was. For me I think the majority of it is because he's not Johnson rather than anything hes done, but his team will still be counting it as a win.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:41
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yeah that's rad space invader, thanks for posting about it! It's good to hear some nice stuffforkboy84 posted:I've thought of what could get me to come around on Keir: challenging Boris to a game of Russian roulette. Do it Haircut *Boris Johnson fulls loads the revolver and, grinning openly, pushes the gun across the table to Keir Starmer* "  let's see how this plays out"
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Jun 29, 2020 18:43
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Yeah it's weird when you don't have the press endlessly howling with rage at the very breath a man breaths and are actually quite positive about him then yeah he'll get a positive rating against the man who absolutely hosed the response to a global pandemic and got tens of thousands killed.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:44
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OwlFancier posted:Or just "I think the tories have defunded the police plenty, but what they haven't done is replace them with any services that could render them less necessary" Yeah that would have been perfect, or just "I think we should invest in both police and other services for the community." Even my mum, who thinks he seems very prime ministerial and didn't like Corbyn because "there's just something about him that rubs me the wrong way, plus they say he's one of them anti-semites" agrees that there are problems with the police (she cried at the clip of Floyd) and didn't mind seeing Colston get in the sea. There's no need to be this level of a red Tory unless it's what he actually believes.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:54
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Aramoro posted:It's a start from where he was. For me I think the majority of it is because he's not Johnson rather than anything hes done, but his team will still be counting it as a win. He seems to be following the lead of Biden in the US - say and do as little as possible, don't commit to any positions and win the next election by virtue of not being the current incumbent. Against Johnson, if he sticks around in office, it miiiight work - my own feeling though is that you don't win in politics unless you're prepared to be bold and take risks - against someone actually competent like Rishi Sunak, it definitely won't work.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:07
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Amazing brexit thread: https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240?s=20 Probably true of many brexit voters (though they all swear they knew what they were voting for).
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Jun 29, 2020 19:07
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Pistol_Pete posted:He seems to be following the lead of Biden in the US - say and do as little as possible, don't commit to any positions and win the next election by virtue of not being the current incumbent. Also, the Tories have a much firmer hold of the media. Starmer's setting himself up for an incredibly obvious betrayal.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:08
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Pistol_Pete posted:He seems to be following the lead of Biden in the US - say and do as little as possible, don't commit to any positions and win the next election by virtue of not being the current incumbent. I feel like there is a sun tzu type koan here along the lines of "If you sit still and do nothing you give your opponent complete freedom to fight you on their terms" As in yeah, it only works if your opponent is an complete idiot, and while johnson is, I don't think the conservative party as a whole is as stupid as trump.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:09
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Angepain posted:
I literally said 'Gender is a gently caress?' on facebook lol. Thanks. Shogi posted:Also good on you spaceinvader, you’re a brave person as well as a good poster - if you ever get stick for it remember there are plenty of solid people on your side I would be a little concerned if there were gaseous or plasma people on my side I think. Thanks. baka kaba posted:yeah that's rad space invader, thanks for posting about it! It's good to hear some nice stuff Thanks. And the same for anyone I've missed any any future appreciative postings.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:11
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Pistol_Pete posted:He seems to be following the lead of Biden in the US - say and do as little as possible, don't commit to any positions and win the next election by virtue of not being the current incumbent. Everyone loving knows he's a bad president. The reason nobody's enthusiastic about Joe Biden is because he's not putting any effort into saying why we should vote for him. I feel like Starmer will do exactly the same.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:21
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Just stumbled across this again: https://twitter.com/simonk_133/status/1229439717336330241?s=20 Labour's vote share actually went up between 2015 and 2019 in about two thirds of seats. Including a decent number that were taken from the Tories, so it wasn't just running up the vote in areas Labour was already strong in (although there was a degree of that too) loving Brexit, man. It really hosed the whole thing. But it would be interesting to see what the net result of Blair's tenure was along the same lines. 1992-2010 would be a good comparison.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:21
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I think my seat lost something like ten thousand labour votes under blair when I checked. It went up under corbyn but so did the tory vote.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:25
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Amazing brexit thread: Brexit voters are the dumbest motherfuckers that ever lived, and only coronavirus is stopping them from being the final straw that broke the back of the UK.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:30
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Amazing brexit thread: So what new problems are the leave voters going to face? I assume that they're worried they'll have difficulty retiring to France once the U.K. leaves the E.U. and returns to glorious isolation?
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Jun 29, 2020 19:31
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