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You know what would have owned as a film, especially after TLJ? An entire installment dedicated to the arms industry and war profiteers, which was deffo being set up by the DJ plot. We didn't need the trilogy structure this time around. Pick up with taking on the FO in the fourth film or whatever. So many film series are doing away with the trilogy concept that it's not required to shackle oneself to it anymore. Of course Disney made the poor choice to release these stand-alone films in between the main ones so they had to deal with some fatigue, but it was entirely unnecessary.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:16
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Also make Shadows of the Empire you cowards. Do it before we lose James Earl Jones and Ian McDiarmid.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:18
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Martman posted:Yeah it's kinda pointless to look at the takes from people who totally hate either set of movies, because you'll always see a lot of "this is completely incomprehensible nonsense" from people who aren't at all interested in parsing something meaningful from the movie. If even defenders of a movie can't explain it, it's a much more interesting sign. One of my favourite scenes from the OT is the first one on the death star where tarkin is introduced, because in a few seconds of dialogue we learn everything tlwe need to know about the universe. There is an Emperor. There's an imperial senate. The rebellion has support in the senate. The imperial officers are worried about this. The senate has just been dissolved. The Empire is not fully established - this is a very new regime that's uncertain about its stability. Don't worry - the death star is the solution to our worries. This is all maybe a minute of dialogue and yet not only do we learn a lot about the world we've been dumped in, we're told right at the start from the mouths of the bad guys 'if the rebels blow up the death star we've bet everything on using to maintain control it will destabilise the empire'. It sets up the stakes for the end of the film perfectly and explains why the rebel victory means more than just blowing up a big space station. The more and more confident and powerful rebellion you see in the background of Empire and RotJ naturally flows from the consequences of that scene. I don't think there's any comparable scene in either other trilogy that explains whats going on and what the heroes are caught up in.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:30
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:You know what would have owned as a film, especially after TLJ? An entire installment dedicated to the arms industry and war profiteers, which was deffo being set up by the DJ plot. We didn't need the trilogy structure this time around. Pick up with taking on the FO in the fourth film or whatever. So many film series are doing away with the trilogy concept that it's not required to shackle oneself to it anymore. Of course Disney made the poor choice to release these stand-alone films in between the main ones so they had to deal with some fatigue, but it was entirely unnecessary. Dual Of The Fates' first draft (kinda) dealt with this. Really though had they decided to finish the saga on an Episode X once Trevorrow was canned, that would've felt way more complete. Honestly, there's so many threads unresolved (and accidentally created in a mad attempt at Rise unnecessarily trying to smash together 9 movies worth of poo poo) that a Threequel trilogy is kinda necessary to address it. Just, you know, wait at least full decade first. And plan the whole thing out this time you dumb fucks.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:31
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Well I mean by necessity the first scenes will always impart the most information.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:31
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:The First Order is clearly a rump state of the previous Empire. Ok so, obviously, you haven’t been following my posts in these threads. When Emperor Palpatine and his forces were defeated in Episode 6, all those Imperial citizens didn’t just disappear. They simply became citizens of the New Republic. That means both Leia and Snoke have a fascism problem. (The First Order is, after all, simply a political party within the New Republic.) Snoke keeps ‘rabid dogs’ around for mysterious reasons (turns out that he’s unconsciously programmed to serve Palpatine), while Leia’s team is inclusive towards fascists like Luke Skywalker and Hux. When I write about communist characters, I am referring specifically to all the DJs, Ben Solo, and the anonymous Jedi trainees who joined him to eventually become the Knights of Ren. Snoke was a puppet of Satan, but he was able to recruit these guys specifically because his public persona was that of a Vaderist. There are obviously major ideological differences between Snoke, Hux, Ben, and the Knights. This is evident in how Ben personally slices Snoke in half with a lasersword, while Hux allies himself with Leia against the Knights, and so-on. Both factions have all kinds of silly infighting - but you can skip past that to get to the actual story, which is about everyone fighting desperately to crush young Ben Solo forever. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jul 6, 2020 |
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Jul 6, 2020 22:35
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Luke Skywalker has vanished The First Order reigns The dead speak
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Jul 6, 2020 22:37
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:The First Order is clearly a rump state of the previous Empire. Using only material presented in the movies, I can see where he's coming from. The only time the First Order is directly connected to the Empire is the opening crawl of TFA, and even that only says that they "have risen from the ashes of the Empire". In Episode IX we see an entirely separate faction of people using the classic Imperial Star Destroyers led by the actual Emperor. The movie even includes visual implications that General Pryde is a traitor to the First Order, and the scene where he speaks to Palpatine is framed as a reveal of some sort, which further strengthens the idea that the First Order and Palpatine's fleet are at odds somehow. As for Kylo, his only stated goal in TFA is to finish Vader's work. In TLJ he talks about eliminating the Sith, and seems to have gone to Exegol at the start of TROS specifically to kill Palpatine. If he's meant to be emblematic of the entire First Order, we could assume that they share Kylo's goal. The Republic is pretty vaguely sketched as well, but the fact that nobody comes to help the Resistance until they find out the actual Devil still alive is good evidence that people don't particularly care about their cause. The Resistance itself is only mentioned as being "supported" by the Republic, and appears to be operating as an off-the-books military force.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:39
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Robot Style posted:The Republic is pretty vaguely sketched as well, but the fact that nobody comes to help the Resistance until they find out the actual Devil still alive is good evidence that people don't particularly care about their cause. The Resistance itself is only mentioned as being "supported" by the Republic, and appears to be operating as an off-the-books military force. This is one of the big tells that, in universe at least, people in the galaxy do distinguish between the FO and the empire. The FO was about to crush the resistance and nobody answered the call for help at the end of TLJ, but in TRoS our boy Palps comes back and the entire universe (it seems) shows up to kick his rear end. That means people who didn't answer the space phone one movie ago decided to help out now. Either Lando is a lot more charming and owed more goodwill than Leia as he convinces people to help out (scene missing) or they think there is a difference between the two villain factions. After all, in TFA the republic got blowed up and nobody seemed to care much or notice, people on casino planet just kept partying.
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Jul 6, 2020 23:06
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:The First Order is clearly a rump state of the previous Empire. I only watched the first of these movies but it pretty freely mixes fascist and stalinist imagery when portraying the first order, so that false equivalence is straight up part of the movies. It's up to the viewer to determine how they're going to read that and which they think is the truth, because it, of course, can' t really be both
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Jul 7, 2020 02:18
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The choice to mix Nazi and Stalinist imagery should not be interpreted by the viewer as an invitation to decide whether the New Order are fascist or communist. These illusions are plainly meant to invoke totalitarianism as identified and described by Arendt.
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Jul 7, 2020 02:42
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The Kingfish posted:The choice to mix Nazi and Stalinist imagery should not be interpreted by the viewer as an invitation to decide whether the New Order are fascist or communist. We continue to read the text, despite its hostility. The First Order is a generic mishmash of totalitarian imagery in Episode 7 - but that was already a deviation from the unambiguously fascist Empire. (Q: what the gently caress is this Hux character even doing in the movie?) The subsequent films then clarified that the First Order are definitely Space Soviets whose fascist traits were the result of a covert infiltration by Space Satanists. (A: Hux was put there by a Satanic conspiracy as part of a complex Batman 3 plot to smear leftists and push Rey Palpatine towards her destiny as lib antichrist.)
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Jul 7, 2020 03:19
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the film is written by the sort of people who see a graph of horseshoe theory and go 'whoa'
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Jul 7, 2020 03:20
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What Stalinist imagery does the FO display?
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Jul 7, 2020 03:46
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ungulateman posted:the film is written by the sort of people who see a graph of horseshoe theory and go 'whoa' Kylo Ren Leia  Palpatine
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Jul 7, 2020 03:48
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The idea of the FO being an imperial remnant only is really undermined by Hux's Nuremberg rally moment in TFA. It's there that he claims that the Republic is lying to the Galaxy about supporting the resistance and that their actions will reveal the truth to the Galaxy. This statement makes it it seem like the FO are some sort of party engaged in an ideological struggle with a hostile government. It also paints the Republic as a seperate and distinct entity from the Galaxy at large, one that people can be swayed against. You can assume that Hux is an evil liar I guess, but that just means that what he was saying up there was total gibberish, if you believe that the FO is specifically an imperial rump state. Nothing about his framing of the situation implies that sort of continuity, even though they would obviously want to acknowledge it if they were such a state. Unlike lost causers, or German neo-Nazis, or any other apologists for deposed regimes, the FO noticeably, specifically never mentions the Empire in any of its propaganda that we see. They break from it, they don't project themselves as a continuation of it, and they don't seem to defend it as having been correct ever. And with the final order in TROS this is proved to be a correct reading because the remnants of the Empire went to Exegol, canonically. So the first order were not related to the Imperial military at all based on the text presented by the movies. Then in TLJ, everything with Canto Bight establishes a framing where the real enemies are the galactic arms dealers and in general of the galactic upper class. The rich oppress the poor we can see it both in the fact that the rich arm both sides of this ideological conflict that hurts people, and in the fact that the rich enslave children and those big dog horse things for their own entertainment. But again this does raise a question, if you accept the idea that the Republic was the governing body of the Galaxy, why do they allow slavery or arms dealing? What exactly are the resistance fighting for, if their version of freedom allow these institutions to keep existing. And I think it's relevant especially because this was actually one of the things that George Lucas put into the prequel trilogy that was an explicit call out of the decay of the Republic. the fact that they didn't deal with Tatooine, they were fine with slaves and suffering, and yes that they were fine with destroying droids and clones by the billions as if their existence and lives didn't matter. TLJ ends with that upbeat little "the next generation will resist" sort of message, but resist who and what? because of the framing that they've given us so far it doesn't seem that the Republic is any better than the Empire was for a lot of people under it. And it's in that vein that you have this idea of Kylo promising a break with the past, something no one else seems to want in the movies, all of them mired by nostalgia for the world that existed before. It's hard not to read the text as saying that he's right; he may be misguided in his methods but not in his desire to see the world change, which I'm pretty sure is the actual message that Rian Johnson was going for. But then thanks to TROS, a break with the past is exact opposite of what happens, and the good guys explicitly tie themselves into a big ouroboros at the end, a nostalgia snake eating its own rear end. SMG posts are fun to me, specifically because he takes these little implications left by the narrative and stitches them all together. The actual reason the movies are the way they are is obviously because no thought went into their setting at all beyond cargo cult copying of the originals or superficial level political discourse (both sides bad! resist!). But if you want to stitch together a narrative theme, looking at symbolism and imagery and subtext, you end up with something really strange. Keep on keeping on SMG. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 03:49
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porfiria posted:What Stalinist imagery does the FO display? TFA‘s superweapon uses the power of work to convert the natural sun into a five-pointed red star, creating a literal Red Dawn. The image of the red star/hand is a recurring motif that links C3PO, BB8, the rathtars, the enslaved stormtroopers, and Kylo Ren. More generally, the ‘generic totalitarianism’ of TFA reads as a reference to 1984 - a book that leans way more into criticizing Stalin than Hitler. On top of this, the basic plot of the trilogy is that Snoke recruited Ben Solo with the promise that they would “finish what Vader started.” As we know from extensive analysis in these threads, that means full communism. If Ben Solo were a fascist, he’d seek to finish what Anakin started.
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Jul 7, 2020 04:21
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The Little Death posted:SMG posts are fun to me, specifically because he takes these little implications left by the narrative and stitches them all together. The actual reason the movies are the way they are is obviously because no thought went into their setting at all beyond cargo cult copying of the originals or superficial level political discourse (both sides bad! resist!). But if you want to stitch together a narrative theme, looking at symbolism and imagery and subtext, you end up with something really strange. I don't know if you know anything about Neon Genesis Evangelion, but SMG's take on that over in ADTRW is the most interesting perspective on the series I've ever read. It was likewise a setting that was leaning on superficial Christian imagery while the story itself was being hastily retconned and rewritten and all explained away in-universe as, basically, conspiracy jenga. It's similar to Star Wars where the fandom has ideas about what it all means but rarely, if ever, engages with a close analysis of the text.
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Jul 7, 2020 04:56
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link me the EVA / SMG i need them
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Jul 7, 2020 05:12
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well why not posted:link me the EVA / SMG i need them Here. It's good poo poo.
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Jul 7, 2020 05:29
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Pretty classic that pages and pages of interesting effort posts (without even any SMG snark) end on a bullshit probe, lol
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Jul 7, 2020 06:24
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garycoleisgod posted:Either Lando is a lot more charming and owed more goodwill than Leia as he convinces people to help out (scene missing) or they think there is a difference between the two villain factions. I think theres something to this. Leia is hated by the Galaxy, being both the daughter of Vader, which seems to be public knowledge in the sequels, and was a figurehead/founder of a government that was utterly powerless, sucks, blows up, has no lasting impact, was neither loved or respected by its people, and was not feared by its enemies. Lando on the other hand is the Hero who blew up the Death Star, appearing to the galaxy to be literally the man who personally killed Satan (Remember per TFA the events in the throne room are not well documented public knowledge). Then he immediately vanishes from the public sphere and so unlike Leia shares none of the blame for the failure of the New Republic. Lando showing up to your planet asking for help to re-kill Satan must be like a religious experience. Like if the Archangel Michael rang your doorbell telling you he personally needs you to be his wingman for the battle of Armageddon. People were probably falling over themselves to be part of "Lando's Fleet".
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Jul 7, 2020 06:41
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I do not grasp the political situation in the sequel films, because the sequel films do not want me to grasp them. What they do want, however, is for me to deeply care about the millenium falcon and on that front they are cinematic failures.
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Jul 7, 2020 08:44
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https://twitter.com/reyloawards/status/1280255264256655365?s=21
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Jul 7, 2020 08:54
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Here. It's good poo poo. What page does he start on
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Jul 7, 2020 09:06
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Bootleg Trunks posted:What page does he start on You can just click on the upside down question mark on the very first post there, op.
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Jul 7, 2020 09:18
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What a bunch of bullshit. He is one with the force,and the force is with him.
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Jul 7, 2020 09:18
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jarjar literally calls the force horseshit and he doesn't walk it back like han's bitch rear end
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Jul 7, 2020 09:41
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:You can just click on the upside down question mark on the very first post there, op. Links to user's posts don't work in Awful.apk. The answer is page 236, op, in case you were planning on reading the thread until you found one. e: incredible Irony Be My Shield posted:At its core EoE is a very honest and personal movie. Trying to read it as a moralizing sermon leads to extremely weird takes like that one. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, yes, but the full title of the series also is something like Glowing Genesis: The New Century's Gospel. josh04 fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 10:04
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Just showed Empire to my son for the first time. He really liked it, especially the ongoing bit where Vader killed his Admirals one by one when they let him down. Something that struck me this time - what exactly went on during the brunch Vader hosted for Han and Leia? So awkward.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:11
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Here. It's good poo poo. We definitely need way more plots that can boil down to 'The Illuminati aren't actually very good at what they do.'
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Jul 7, 2020 11:50
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Do it before we lose James Earl Jones If that happens I nominate Ernie Hudson to take his place. Yes, really.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:27
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Red Rox posted:Just showed Empire to my son for the first time. He really liked it, especially the ongoing bit where Vader killed his Admirals one by one when they let him down. They probably had mimosas. I don't think anyone was planning on driving afterwards.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:35
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Vader spent like an hour talking about the decor and making horrible dad jokes
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Jul 7, 2020 12:48
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porfiria posted:What Stalinist imagery does the FO display? Hux's hat looks like kim jong-un's that's literally it
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Jul 7, 2020 13:43
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Alchenar posted:I don't think there's any comparable scene in either other trilogy that explains whats going on and what the heroes are caught up in. I think I might be the only person that believes TFA set up the status of the galaxy fairly well by showing and not telling. Only exception was when Hosnian Prime went brrrrrrrrrrrrr and Finn runs at the camera to tell us the Republic is gone! Also TLJ is unambiguous about the FO being the Nazis. It literally describes their blitzkrieg in the opening crawl.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:49
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Most people thought Starkiller Base blew up Coruscant.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:TFA‘s superweapon uses the power of work to convert the natural sun into a five-pointed red star, creating a literal Red Dawn. The image of the red star/hand is a recurring motif that links C3PO, BB8, the rathtars, the enslaved stormtroopers, and Kylo Ren. That's funny because I saw a red swastika, not a red star. Also 3PO and the enslaved stormtrooper were the good guys. quote:More generally, the ‘generic totalitarianism’ of TFA reads as a reference to 1984 - a book that leans way more into criticizing Stalin than Hitler. Well, yea, because it was written after Hitler blew his half-melted face off and Stalin was still alive. quote:On top of this, the basic plot of the trilogy is that Snoke recruited Ben Solo with the promise that they would “finish what Vader started.” As we know from extensive analysis in these threads, that means full communism. If Ben Solo were a fascist, he’d seek to finish what Anakin started. Is there actually a reason why it means full communism? Because to me and many others, he comes across as he was written: as an incel / member of the boogaloo boys.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:06
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Most people thought Starkiller Base blew up Coruscant. And I guarantee you it was written to be that way. Disney vetoed that because it would mean they had to pay Georgie.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:07
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TLJ establishese that life goes "on" under either the NR, the FO, or the Resistance. Despite all that bitter personal family drama driving things, life would be normal for everyone else with the conflict being just a blurb on the news ticker. Just either colored more black or more brown, and surprisingly unremarkable. Yeah, the SDs are scary but the militaries are always loving scary. Big whoop I'm not getting blown up when I have a job, sports and a good life, says the average citizen in VIII's climax. There's a moral there about the futility of war over understanding. A disagreement in Ben's room over his right leaning tendencies turns into a whole lot of gently caress. And that Fuckery was helpful to absolutely no one, it seems. Palpatine returning means no parties, no horse races, and none of that good old spice hustling. This is why Kylo came to kill him and it makes sense people would answer "that" call. We need "life" beyond these big drat wars. And its a sign to both sides of the war to focus on the most important things; killing space satan. And maybe future space satans! Wait.... Much like the prequels, you guys help me appreciate these disasters more. Whether that's good or bad...? 
Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 14:16
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