V. Illych L. posted:attempting to dismiss the deep flaws of the contemporary british welfare state as first world problems without a very developed argument is liable to cause some frustration in areas where that is held as given I am not dismissing that there are not flaws. When you look at the system the UK has, what it offers..etc to most of the world, then relative the UK has a generous welfare state. Is it perfect? No of course not.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:55
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The UKs social welfare system currently only looks good if you squint your eyes real hard and only compare us to places like Syria. The reality is very different. It is demeaning and currently designed to dehumanise applicants and try and deny as many people as possible. IDS created the current system to punish people and keep them in poverty and force people into extreme measures just to survive. And all while being told on one hand that there is no magic money tree, and on the other throwing billions in tax breaks to the most well off. The current scandal with Jenkins barely registers on the poo poo the government tries to pull off on the regular.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:01
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didn't the whole 'magic money tree' thing get completely blown out of the water like a week later when they literally gave a billion dollars to the NI theocrats as a bribe also you're spending literal tens of billions on the american plane that barely flies
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Jul 7, 2020 14:02
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NGC773 posted:I am not dismissing that there are not flaws. When you look at the system the UK has, what it offers..etc to most of the world, then relative the UK has a generous welfare state. Is it perfect? No of course not. you're dismissing it as effectively a first-world problem, I.e. not a really serious or systemic issue a big thing about the welfare state is that it displaces by its very nature a lot of unformal networks of assistance upon which people have previously relied, especially religious and family groups. in many cases, this is a part of the welfare state's stated objective, a way to break the power of sects and clans. the problem is that when the welfare state starts withering away, those networks aren't really there anymore to soften the blow for those involved. this means that those who fall through the cracks of a welfare state are often *worse off* in objective terms than those who fall in a non-welfare state where family commitments etc are still strong. the typical example of this is dignity in elder care, but the present british welfare state hasn't got cracks so much as ravines where thousands disappear
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Jul 7, 2020 14:03
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NGC773 posted:No need for the personal insults. hyperinflation has never once been caused accidentally. It is a deliberate policy choice, as it very much was when the Weimar knowingly crushed the economy to game war-debt. Unless you have an MA in econ or readily-available papers on the matter, then you've got nothing of value to add on the subject.. You're getting insulted because you've decided to reject the lived experiences of tens of thousands of people, empirical data on both disability reforms and COVID, both basic and complex understandings of fiscal policy, and anything approaching actual knowledge of how the disability system works or the legal challenges the government has faced. I feel pretty good about it. You can take the opportunity to reflect on that, or you can keep shitstirring about left-wing echo chambers in a forum that has plenty of centre-right people who regularily contribute insightful things without dogpiling. I'm confident I can guess which. Ghost Leviathan posted:didn't the whole 'magic money tree' thing get completely blown out of the water like a week later when they literally gave a billion dollars to the NI theocrats as a bribe $1.5tn last I checked
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Jul 7, 2020 14:11
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Spangly A posted:hyperinflation has never once been caused accidentally. It is a deliberate policy choice, as it very much was when the Weimar knowingly crushed the economy to game war-debt. Unless you have an MA in econ or readily-available papers on the matter, then you've got nothing of value to add on the subject.. Yes, hyperinflation was deliberately caused. That doesn't mean that printing money is an easy way out to spend more. Printing money excessively will cause more issues than problems it solves. By your logic no one should be entitled to an opinion unless they are degree educated on a subject. Nonsense. I only said cut out the personal insults because they were that, insults. I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, I want to debate and test different topics with people. No need to no platform people with opposite views.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:16
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NGC773 posted:Agreed that the Govts response to COVID has not been good and that other EU countries have done it far better. My argument is that the easing of lockdown has to happen before the economic effect causes an even more adverse environment than COVID ever did. In the longer term, a significant percentage of people who recover from COVID are likely not gonna fully recover, and thus their ability to work will be hampered by reduced lung capacity and general fatigue, possibly nerve/brain damage too in some cases. Even without geting into the discussion of the morality of looking at things from an economic point of view - which appears to be the only criteria you care about - the lasting effects of infection will result in real permanent damage to the core of economy, instead of bullshit numbers that have no relation to reality. Going hard on a lockdown to really suppress cases followed by a slow relaxation of rules after a proper test and trace system has been implemented is the cheapest approach for anything but the immediate short term, and the one with the least human misery to boot. The only downside is showing that government and collective action can actually achieve things. *Has the UK had anything even approaching a proper lockdown? NGC773 posted:The BOE cannot continue to let the money printers go off forever. Look at what happened to Germany in the 1920s when the printers go wild. NGC773 posted:Yes, hyperinflation was deliberately caused. That doesn't mean that printing money is an easy way out to spend more. Printing money excessively will cause more issues than problems it solves. A Buttery Pastry has issued a correction as of 14:19 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 14:17
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the need to keep inflation low at all costs is also, amusingly, a core neoliberal/thatcherite dogma which in this context mainly serves to ensure that property prices increase more quickly than the rest of the economy, a policy which is currently on the brink of collapse in the most advanced countries
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Jul 7, 2020 14:22
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NGC773 posted:I am beginning to think this thread is worse than reddit for left echo chamber it appears to be. oh my god lol
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Jul 7, 2020 14:23
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of course, the classical tripartite-focussed social democrats were also very wary of inflation, but for entirely different reasons - they wanted to make annual real-term wage increases more easily achieved, which means very predictable and relatively low inflation is a priority. i do not believe that british workers have seen many real-term wage increases in recent decades, however
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Jul 7, 2020 14:26
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NGC773 posted:By your logic no one should be entitled to an opinion unless they are degree educated on a subject. Nonsense. I only said cut out the personal insults because they were that, insults. I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, I want to debate and test different topics with people. 
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Jul 7, 2020 14:28
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i say swears online posted:oh my god lol reddit, noted left wing echo chamber
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Jul 7, 2020 14:29
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oliwan posted:reddit, noted left wing echo chamber
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Jul 7, 2020 14:50
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the UK welfare state is better than most other countries and hasn't been absolutely annihilated by the tories
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Jul 7, 2020 14:59
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NGC773 posted:I am beginning to think this thread is worse than reddit for left echo chamber it appears to be. Leftism? In MY CSPAM? Can't believe it! Everything is ideological. Denying this is an ideological statement in favour of the status quo because yes, simply leaving everything as it is while 1.5m households have to use charities to afford food is an inherently political statement.
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Jul 7, 2020 15:17
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NGC773 posted:Yes, hyperinflation was deliberately caused. That doesn't mean that printing money is an easy way out to spend more. Printing money excessively will cause more issues than problems it solves. I for one am very pleased that you are posting here. It means I'm no longer the worst poster. Also, your tactical concession that the government could have done things better, or made mistakes, grossly understates the problem. They hosed up massively. That is why we are exiting lockdown later than anyone else, and in a chaotic, disorganised way. (Phased reopening my arse). Oh, with more deaths than any other country in Europe, and I think 3rd highest in the world? (I haven't checked latest figures, Brazil and US are probably ahead now). Others have already made the arguments about the government's handling of the pandemic. I did something similar to you a few weeks ago - came in guns blazing, looking for an argument, and got shot down and insulted. This is not, as I soon realised, just the politics sub-forum of D&D (which I never visit). This is a more relaxed, chattier thread/sub-forum, so you are either in the wrong place by accident, or being provocative. I had also realised prior to that (but my experience here reinforced it) that I was not getting a broad enough perspective on politics and current events. Reading a broader range of perspectives will help you. As will acknowledging facts when presented to you. Oh, one more thing! The current woeful status of the UK welfare system being a first-world problem? Yes, well, we do live in the first world.
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Jul 7, 2020 15:29
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Jose posted:the UK welfare state is better than most other countries and hasn't been absolutely annihilated by the tories They're only going to explain to you entirely in the abstract the concepts of demand, free goods and surplus income 
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Jul 7, 2020 15:31
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crispix posted:They're only going to explain to you entirely in the abstract the concepts of demand, free goods and surplus income Osborne, Cameron, IDS and every other Tory who voted for and implemented austerity have blood on their hands.
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Jul 7, 2020 15:35
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NGC773 posted:Yes, hyperinflation was deliberately caused. That doesn't mean that printing money is an easy way out to spend more. Printing money excessively will cause more issues than problems it solves. Short dated gilt yields are currently negative (2Y is -0.08%, 5Y is -0.03%); if that sort of financing was available to you personally wouldn't you take it? Can you explain what problem you think is lurking here?
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Jul 7, 2020 17:15
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NGC773 posted:Yes, hyperinflation was deliberately caused. That doesn't mean that printing money is an easy way out to spend more. Printing money excessively will cause more issues than problems it solves. The only real issue with printing money is inflation. Inflation has basically vanished for rich countries. Japan has been in deflation for decades yet it continues to print money to prop up asset prices. In this case, rather than buying shares in zombie companies, we use the money to fund the public good -- until inflation returns. Real yields, and even now nominal yields, on gilts are negative.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:26
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NGC773 posted:Seeing as the vast majority of low paid workers are in their 20s and that if you are under 50 the chances of you dying from COVID is ridiculously low no one should be worried. Wow you're either very dedicated to trolling or the actual dumbest poster I've seen all year. And I don't say that lightly! You know loving nothing about welfare systems, about testing and tracing, about how pandemics work, about the economy, the list goes on. I mean nobody accumulates this many opposite_of_reality.jpg opinions while reading any news with a critical eye but geez the commitment to the bit. "The welfare system is fine and great compared to other countries with similar wealth", "The lockdown, not the pandemic loving everything up globally, is to blame for the economic slowdown... you made a bingo card didn't you. You made a bingo card for lovely trolling and are not sharing it with the thread. For shame.
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Jul 7, 2020 23:59
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"The odds for you to die are low and let's not speak of the people for whom this isn't true, or the economic impact of a demand crash." "People have to work to live even if there's a massive unemployment spike." "Lifting lockdown while the situation is all hosed up is the same as lifting lockdown when you have proper controls in place." "SA is worse than Reddit." "Tories will sort their poo poo out in time for the election." "Let's just ignore all the long term effects for the hell of it." "The UK is actually the best in the world and the evidence shouldn't enter into it." "Just Google to find out how I'm right." "We have hosed up but too late to fix anything now." "Something Something Communism" (free space) (alab) "If the system has failed the government/free market can surely fix it." "I don't read clickbait/twitter/newspapers" "I'm just hated because I have the wrong ideology not because I'm acting like a dipshit." "National Credit Card!" "Stop insulting me and debate my nebulous, undefended points." We need ten more to figure out his entire bingo card.
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Jul 8, 2020 00:08
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NGC773 posted:I am beginning to think this thread is worse than reddit for left echo chamber it appears to be. Every single time I share one of my opinions, people tell me I'm wrong, explain using examples why I'm chatting poo poo, and call me stupid?? Hmm. It must be a case of ideology
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Jul 8, 2020 00:08
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therattle posted:I for one am very pleased that you are posting here. Bad posting isn't a zero sum game lad
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Jul 8, 2020 00:12
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Crane Fist posted:Every single time I share one of my opinions, people tell me I'm wrong, explain using examples why I'm chatting poo poo, and call me stupid?? Hmm. It must be a case of ideology It is a case of ideology, they're only wrong about who has it.
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Jul 8, 2020 00:17
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Crane Fist posted:Bad posting isn't a zero sum game lad Therattle has displayed the capacity to be slightly better which this other poster hasn't
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Jul 8, 2020 00:30
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Continuity RCP posted:Therattle has displayed the capacity to be slightly better which this other poster hasn't If we only seek to be better than the worst how can we ever become the best
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Jul 8, 2020 00:43
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this is a dying gay webforum still owned by an incredibly dubious character, best was never really on the table
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Jul 8, 2020 00:46
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Crane Fist posted:If we only seek to be better than the worst how can we ever become the best Got to start somewhere
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Jul 8, 2020 00:55
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Therattle asked for things to read to improve their knowledge which is way more than most libs are willing to do
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Jul 8, 2020 00:57
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NGC, I know lots of people are calling you stupid, but it’s only because you’re posting stupid nonsense constantly
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Jul 8, 2020 02:52
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sorry quick question. i haven't read up on anything about boris since he left the hospital after being treated for covid. is he completely 100% healthy again?
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Jul 8, 2020 03:03
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Mr Interweb posted:sorry quick question. i haven't read up on anything about boris since he left the hospital after being treated for covid. is he completely 100% healthy again? He was healthy 1 week after he was 'nearly dead' in the ICU.
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Jul 8, 2020 03:05
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Regarde Aduck posted:He was healthy 1 week after he was 'nearly dead' in the ICU. aw man. not even a LITTLE bit of long term damage?
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Jul 8, 2020 03:25
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because it was fake.
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Jul 8, 2020 04:18
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Mr Interweb posted:sorry quick question. i haven't read up on anything about boris since he left the hospital after being treated for covid. is he completely 100% healthy again? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/19/chaos-and-a-car-crash-tories-begin-to-fear-boris-johnson-has-lost-his-vim I guess some Tory MPs are concerned that he's not the same as previously but no real details here.
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Jul 8, 2020 08:04
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I do seem to remember that he looked measurably more like poo poo after coming out of the hospital, and it never really went away (despite his high baseline of looking like poo poo).
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Jul 8, 2020 08:08
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We definitely have had inflation in the past few years, its just been in property values & rent
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Jul 8, 2020 08:51
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Mr Interweb posted:sorry quick question. i haven't read up on anything about boris since he left the hospital after being treated for covid. is he completely 100% healthy again? He's doing pushups now. Well, at least one pushup for a photo op.
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Jul 8, 2020 09:01
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MikeCrotch posted:We definitely have had inflation in the past few years, its just been in property values & rent Combined with close to zero pay increases for the public sector and close to stagnant increases in the private. I am about 10k worse off purchase power since 2010.
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Jul 8, 2020 09:02
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