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V. Illych L. posted:going to be fun times in norway if the gulf stream starts behaving erratically, though admittedly that's also the case for britain Maybe global warming and lack of gulf stream will balance each other out? 
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Jul 22, 2020 12:13
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spending members money to settle a case the party had won and apologise to those who sabotaged corbyn. quite right too since they got starmer his job
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Jul 22, 2020 12:17
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Getting to the point where basically anything I want to say about British politics is 'not quite above board' so to speak vis a vis our friendly Internet monitors
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Jul 22, 2020 12:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drYsmB-9Vbk
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Jul 22, 2020 12:24
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it's wild that they actually used the court case as a way to reward people for outright and brazenly sabotaging the party like it's completely demented
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Jul 22, 2020 12:27
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it got starmer the job he wanted
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Jul 22, 2020 12:39
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yeah loving starmer's genuinely surprising me with how lovely he is
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Jul 22, 2020 14:19
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He was the continuity 2015 candidate and the worst factions in Labour were salivating over the chance to vote for him. shame on anyone who got taken in by his transparent bullshit in the slightest
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Jul 22, 2020 14:25
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yeah but like, even blair didn't get to the point of actively rewarding outright sabotage starmer was clearly the rightmost candidate for leader, but even with the whole trilateral commission bullshit this is brazen as gently caress
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Jul 22, 2020 14:33
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The whole issue of Panorama and sabotage etc seems pretty muddy to me. I read the OpenDemocracy piece here https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failures-really-corbyns-fault/ which is persuasive, but the responses are too https://dochub.com/adam-ramsay-dp431t/Dbd3xkWVepxeXp6K49AYlz/letter-to-j-schlosberg-ware-090620-1-pdf?dt=Z4FCLgJxv7ytnT8j1bdz https://dochub.com/adam-ramsay-dp431t/dbnaAMqK9YLaEbvKGNXJm0/letter-to-j-schlosberg-matthews-090620-1-pdf?dt=on1bxf1ArYDsyqs12KXH https://dochub.com/adam-ramsay-dp431t/P0B76b3K6x2b4v1wn2y1Gg/letter-to-j-schlosberg-hogan-090620-1-pdf?dt=cdSXUkYMLGUGezg8z4xD It's a mess, and I really don't know what to think. If anyone was actively sabotaging the party and the 2017 election campaign they should be immediately dismissed from employment by the party and expelled. I can see the reasoning to settle: avoid a potentially damaging court case (which the media would have made a circus out of) and damages and legal fees, and draw a line under the whole thing. But if the party would have won (and it doesn't seem cut and dried either way), then it does look politically motivated rather than sensible. I always thought that if the removal of RLB was not political then he should have replaced her with a Corbynite, so who knows. (You, you all do, I am not sure).
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Jul 22, 2020 18:19
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therattle posted:The whole issue of Panorama and sabotage etc seems pretty muddy to me. I read the OpenDemocracy piece here peter oborne, noted conservative, has been writing fairly extensively on this, e.g. here: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failures-really-corbyns-fault/ and https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/killing-jeremy-corbyn where he draws the obvious conclusions from the available data, I.e. that the labour right with gen.sec of the party as their point man were actively sabotaging not only the party's election campaign but also the very handling of party discipline including antisemitism.
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Jul 22, 2020 18:51
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the reasoning to settle is to cement the idea of the labour left as an inherently disastrously racist group and lock down an argument against them ever being allowed close to power again
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Jul 22, 2020 18:53
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labour will never be in power again, and the opposition front bench is satisfied.
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Jul 22, 2020 19:07
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is Starmer really going to kick Corbyn out of the party, people on twitter are getting excited about it
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Jul 22, 2020 19:23
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lol it rules that the labor left negotiated a surrender in the labor civil war and the labor right immediately turned around and ramped the civil war up to 11
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Jul 22, 2020 19:27
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my hunch is no - it'd be a very good issue for a fair chunk of MPs to walk and form a new party, which while it likely wouldn't survive very long would almost certainly throw the next election - some of the most popular constituency MPs are these ageing socialist backbenchers, after all probably this is mostly just a threat to keep everyone quiet about the new regime e. that said i really didn't think they'd just outright hand a bunch if wreckers several hundred thousand pounds either so who the hell knows V. Illych L. has issued a correction as of 19:30 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 19:28
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is there a reason to assume current Labor leadership would prefer winning the next election over purging the Left.
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Jul 22, 2020 19:33
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Atrocious Joe posted:is there a reason to assume current Labor leadership would prefer winning the next election over purging the Left. There is not
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Jul 22, 2020 19:40
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Atrocious Joe posted:is there a reason to assume current Labor leadership would prefer winning the next election over purging the Left. yeah they're all ambitious and venal as any politician. they don't want to win at any cost but they'd rather be the ones handing out contracts than the tories e: also to give them great heaping dollops of unearned credit, i suspect some of them actually are motivated by a desire to do good and stop the tory murder of the poor. they just also hate the left and think some kind of soft blairism is the way to do that
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Jul 22, 2020 19:49
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Jarf posted:We're so hosed. Anybody else getting real down about this? I had a discussion about this a few days back. And the conclusion was that England is the world's revenge on the English for the Genocide Empire. Having the English do to the English what the English did to various folk unable to defend themselves has this certain symmetry to it that evokes justice while containing none. Here's hoping the Republic of Scotland and Ireland can separate themselves from the mess.
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Jul 22, 2020 19:59
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every politician wants to win, there's no exceptions to this it's many billions of pounds at one's disposal, a great many positions to distribute, important work experience for staffers and activists, an opportunity to seriously influence the world if you're in a major country it's hard to find a disciplined enough pawn of capital to be willing to forego this in order to chase off the last remnants of a defeated and fairly moderate left faction
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Jul 22, 2020 20:06
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V. Illych L. posted:every politician wants to win, there's no exceptions to this This is what federalists argued in America when it was young and abandoned by like 1800. Winning even a single seat requires dozens of people who are disciplined enough to say "I don't want to be the leader, I want this other person to be the leader." I'm not talking voters, I'm talking staffers and canvassers and organizers. Creating a party, as opposed to just a single person running a solo campaign, necessitates a whole army of people who aren't even backbenchers. All of those people are disciplined enough to forgo all those benefits you listed. Just take one of those people who happens to be comfortable being in public and presto.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:18
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a lot of those people are motivated by other things - ideology, specific issues, promise of a job as a staffer, whatever. the point is, they're mostly all interested in winning for some reason. most people who make it to the top of a major party are seriously egotistical and really want the top office in the land, because why the hell wouldn't you go for it if it's there? starmer is clearly keen on smashing what's left of the labour left, but if he goes through with forcing a split he's doing it because he reckons it won't hurt the party's chances generally i find it often makes sense to take people at their words rather than assume that the leader of the labour party is a literal tory agent - they don't have much to reward him with, and it'd be one hell of a long con
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Jul 22, 2020 21:26
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"If the Russians are spying on us, we will simply ask them to tell us who the spies are. Bing bong, so simple." https://twitter.com/business/status/1285988482096168960?s=20
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Jul 22, 2020 21:59
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Dr. Kyle Farnsworth posted:"If the Russians are spying on us, we will simply ask them to tell us who the spies are. Bing bong, so simple." I heard this on the radio. Laughable. I doubt we need more laws about this - just the will to enforce those we have.
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Jul 22, 2020 22:49
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Atrocious Joe posted:is there a reason to assume current Labor leadership would prefer winning the next election over purging the Left. Self-importance. Keir probably imagines he'd be a great Prime Minister and it'd be unfair to deprive the public of himself. I hope I'm wrong and he does lead to the Labour left loving off and taking the foot soldiers and a lot of the union financial backers with them. I'm pretty much full speed ahead accelerationist at this point. I'm too poor to gently caress off to another country, don't actually have any real qualifications, can't speak any other languages so I'm stuck here and so I don't really feel bad about going accelerationist. At some point the slow, steady decay is cruelest than just pulling the whole miserable mess down. Already at a point where food banks are a necessity for hundreds of thousands, if not more, once the government gut the NHS there's not much left to protect.
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Jul 22, 2020 23:19
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it seemed like corbyn was doing a good job of purging blairites from labour, at least given the fever pitch of their whining but I guess he was still too soft in the end.
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Jul 22, 2020 23:20
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Dreylad posted:it seemed like corbyn was doing a good job of purging blairites from labour, at least given the fever pitch of their whining but I guess he was still too soft in the end. Nah he did a poo poo job, absolutely his greatest failing as leader. He even bailed out loving Tom Watson when Lansman finally gathered the nerve to take a shot at him last year
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Jul 22, 2020 23:25
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Dreylad posted:it seemed like corbyn was doing a good job of purging blairites from labour, at least given the fever pitch of their whining but I guess he was still too soft in the end. Nah, Corbyn shat it hardcore and I deeply resent him for squandering the best chance the left has had in this hell country ever because he was too nice and soft. He did gently caress all to purge anyone and more's the pity
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Jul 22, 2020 23:33
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multijoe posted:Nah he did a poo poo job, absolutely his greatest failing as leader. He even bailed out loving Tom Watson when Lansman finally gathered the nerve to take a shot at him last year Yeah as an outsider watching UK politics that's becoming pretty clear now. These old socialist politicians seem to be overall pretty decent people but that's a liability, you cannot give these people a loving inch. You'd think after how many leadership votes Corbyn went through that he or someone on his staff would have picked up on that.
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Jul 22, 2020 23:34
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There's a bit of a side lesson with Corbyn - the guy who's spent decades diligently on the back bench isn't going to respond with appropriate force when his old allies gently caress him.V. Illych L. posted:a lot of those people are motivated by other things - ideology, specific issues, promise of a job as a staffer, whatever. the point is, they're mostly all interested in winning for some reason. most people who make it to the top of a major party are seriously egotistical and really want the top office in the land, because why the hell wouldn't you go for it if it's there? So, again, I think it's shortsighted to assume that electoral politicians are rational, single-priority powermongers, based on history and the fact that it's a worse route to power than through business. But for fun, let's assume Starmer is driven towards power rather than policies. Why would he spend energy on internal purgers over winning elections? 1. Believes that he can't win if the working class has a voice inside Labour. Not an irrational belief - he was, in very recent memory, the beneficiary of internal politics derailing electoralism to put him in power. It'd be weird for him to forget his own source of power. 2. Believes that he can't win, period. This would be a little odder but who knows how the gently caress he's doing calculations. 3. Believes that he can win, but if he doesn't purge the working class representation, he won't be able to actually exercise that power. So he'd rather clean house first. And these are just the extreme versions - softer versions are totally justifiable. He thinks his chances of winning after purging the party are higher, for example.
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Jul 22, 2020 23:59
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I think focusing exclusively on Starmer can mean missing other factors too. Do the staffers that helped sabotage Corbyn's leadership want to continue a purge of the Left? That group can obviously operate independent of elected leadership. I think the other big factor are groups outside Labour that still want Corbyn out of politics, it's possible they can keep pushing the issue.
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Jul 23, 2020 00:12
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Starmer and the current leadership clearly believe that the only way to win is through the media and so are being ruthless about any element that might kick up a fuss and cause bad press (e.g the left talking about defending the police) They also want to be the competent rulers of the capitalist state compared to the Tories and so want to purge the left to prove to business they aren't a threat (right after Starmer got elected shadow ministers were touring the City telling them Labour was under new management and they don't need to worry)
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Jul 23, 2020 00:46
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hah imagine if corbyn had done what bojo did and kicked out all the melts and stood candidates against them in 2017 though it seemed like the internal party structure is totally hosed too and as always nobody knows who is responsible for it there are multiple layers of redundancies to prevent anything being done
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Jul 23, 2020 03:20
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So the House of Commons twitter account deleted this:
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Jul 23, 2020 16:52
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Captain Splendid posted:So the House of Commons twitter account deleted this: I want to get off this ride 
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Jul 23, 2020 19:39
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endlessmonotony posted:I had a discussion about this a few days back. Doesn't seem fair, I never got to do any empire but I have to live with this poo poo
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Jul 23, 2020 19:42
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Continuity RCP posted:Doesn't seem fair, I never got to do any empire but I have to live with this poo poo I did say it evokes justice but contains none.
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Jul 23, 2020 20:17
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gently caress it, I'm going to colonise something
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Jul 23, 2020 21:28
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I am quite literally lost for loving words. I read this whole thread and it's basically 'The US and the UK are the two leading nations in the fight against Covid-19'. This is something you would expect from the mouth of Bojo or Trump when the handlers are distracted. I haven't even read the replies yet. https://twitter.com/i/events/1286288768002072577
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Jul 23, 2020 23:02
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