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Grand Fromage posted:The only possibility was if the Yupik who went back and forth across the Bering Strait had brought the old world diseases with them long enough before the Europeans arrived that the Americans were able to build up an equivalent level of immunity. (1) give the Yupik pigs and cows 10,000 years ago (2) let bacteria/viruses that jump from farm animals to humans evolve over many thousands of years in the americas (3) at the columbian contact, we both give each other insanely deadly viruses that none of us have resistances to and all die
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Jul 24, 2020 01:13
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Nessus posted:I suspect even a moderately higher level of baseline resistance to smallpox etc. would have made an immense difference. I'm not sure there would have been successful European domination in these contexts. In some regions perhaps but it seems like you would not have had a situation where Cortes knocks over an entire ancient civilization and produces giant wagonloads of silver. Yeah smallpox made it from virginia to lousiana in three years, and i think it wiped out the aztecs in a matter of months. Its crazy how fast it moves in a population with no resistance.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:22
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You might have a chance if you somehow had the smallpox vaccine prior to the colombian exchange.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:24
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Grand Fromage posted:In that case I would imagine American colonization would look more like African/Asian, a thin layer of Europeans dominating a native society. That is what American colonization looked like during the first few generations, practically all the 16th century Spanish adventurers wanted to get power with the help of their local allies, marry into local nobility (or what could pass for it, like Malintzin) and get rights to the forced labor of the local lower classes. This stopped being the ideal because most of these three groups subsequently died.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:25
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skasion posted:That is what American colonization looked like during the first few generations, practically all the 16th century Spanish adventurers wanted to get power with the help of their local allies, marry into local nobility (or what could pass for it, like Malintzin) and get rights to the forced labor of the local lower classes. This stopped being the ideal because most of these three groups subsequently died.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:31
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If Americans really did have a bunch of plague-tier diseases besides the outside possibility of syphilis, that probably would have resulted in a scenario where the old world didn't dominate the new, because we would have had 90% depopulation everywhere
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Jul 24, 2020 01:32
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Grand Fromage posted:I would imagine American colonization would look more like African/Asian, a thin layer of Europeans dominating a native society. I'm not sure if in this scenario they could manage even that. A large part of why Europeans were able to do that to Asia/Africa was because they had been able to enrich and advance themselves with the spoils of two essentially emptied continents. When Europeans came to the Americas they didn't have that kind of resource base and the industrialization it enabled. There's no way 1492 Spain could have waged a transatlantic war of conquest against native states without disease killing the whole population for them. Even if they had defeated a native state in open combat the native populations would have been too numerous to control without industrial warfare and organization from across an ocean.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:36
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Parmenides posted:
Unfortunately, you're already using that source.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:47
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Parmenides posted:If you're a Theban Sympathiser, just come out and admit it. What part of "spartan male society" do you think I'm forgetting, and why do you think Thebes is anything other than contemptible? I can discuss Thebes if people here like that city, but I had hoped to discuss the better people of Hellas rather than the very worst. it's the gay part, op
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Jul 24, 2020 01:49
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galagazombie posted:I'm not sure if in this scenario they could manage even that. A large part of why Europeans were able to do that to Asia/Africa was because they had been able to enrich and advance themselves with the spoils of two essentially emptied continents. When Europeans came to the Americas they didn't have that kind of resource base and the industrialization it enabled. There's no way 1492 Spain could have waged a transatlantic war of conquest against native states without disease killing the whole population for them. Even if they had defeated a native state in open combat the native populations would have been too numerous to control without industrial warfare and organization from across an ocean.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:51
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galagazombie posted:I'm not sure if in this scenario they could manage even that. A large part of why Europeans were able to do that to Asia/Africa was because they had been able to enrich and advance themselves with the spoils of two essentially emptied continents. When Europeans came to the Americas they didn't have that kind of resource base and the industrialization it enabled. There's no way 1492 Spain could have waged a transatlantic war of conquest against native states without disease killing the whole population for them. Even if they had defeated a native state in open combat the native populations would have been too numerous to control without industrial warfare and organization from across an ocean. Entirely possible. IIRC the Spanish managed to knock over the Incas without much help from disease, which gives them access to the silver mines. I also suspect they would have been able to bring down the Aztecs, the smallpox outbreak helped but the main reason they won was they were able to put together an alliance of all the people the Aztecs had pissed off. But certainly if the Europeans couldn't make any inroads at all in the Americas, things would've been quite different.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:53
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Jazerus posted:it's the gay part, op i would actually unironically like to ask if anyone has book recs re: thebes/the sacred band in the 4th/5th century
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Jul 24, 2020 01:53
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Parmenides posted:I am just a humble forums-goer, promoting respect for Hellenic and Chinese antiquity. Welp, I guess we’ll continue this discussion next month, you Diogenes-denying sicko. 
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Jul 24, 2020 01:54
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Grand Fromage posted:Entirely possible. IIRC the Spanish managed to knock over the Incas without much help from disease, which gives them access to the silver mines. I also suspect they would have been able to bring down the Aztecs, the smallpox outbreak helped but the main reason they won was they were able to put together an alliance of all the people the Aztecs had pissed off. But certainly if the Europeans couldn't make any inroads at all in the Americas, things would've been quite different. The Spanish showed up in Inca territory right in the middle of a civil war/succession crisis and then a bunch of the nobles decide to throw their lot in with the Spaniards rather than the royalty. Also they still had to contend with a rump state of Inca that fought them tooth and nail for decades afterwards, and actually adopted European weapons.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:58
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skasion posted:That is what American colonization looked like during the first few generations, practically all the 16th century Spanish adventurers wanted to get power with the help of their local allies, marry into local nobility (or what could pass for it, like Malintzin) and get rights to the forced labor of the local lower classes. This stopped being the ideal because most of these three groups subsequently died. Fun fact a lot of people don't know. Montezuma's descendants are still Spanish nobility today. The Duke of Moctezuma de Tultengo just got into a public argument with the President of Mexico last year after AMLO wrote a letter to Spain and the Vatican demanding they apologize for the Spanish conquest of Mexico.
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Jul 24, 2020 02:07
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Nessus posted:Did they? I thought there was a lot less of a collapse but it may be more that when the population increased again after the crash, in central/south America it came from natives to a much greater extent than in north America. De las Casas thought so. Admittedly he was a bleeding heart and protecting Indians from Spaniards was his literal job, but he was definitely concerned that between disease and exploitation they would all die — so much so that he initially advocated the importation of black slaves to replace their labor. galagazombie posted:I'm not sure if in this scenario they could manage even that. A large part of why Europeans were able to do that to Asia/Africa was because they had been able to enrich and advance themselves with the spoils of two essentially emptied continents. When Europeans came to the Americas they didn't have that kind of resource base and the industrialization it enabled. There's no way 1492 Spain could have waged a transatlantic war of conquest against native states without disease killing the whole population for them. Even if they had defeated a native state in open combat the native populations would have been too numerous to control without industrial warfare and organization from across an ocean. Spain did not wage transatlantic wars of conquest. No Spanish army was deployed in war against any of the Indian nations until the Araucanian war, at which point the crown did not so much send an army to Chile as pay the settlers and local non-Araucanian Indians a lot of money to allow them to set up their own permanent defensive organization. The conquest of the Mexica and Inka states was carried out by private adventurers with the help of Indian allies (in the case of the Mexica, a LOT of Indian allies). These private adventurers acted in the belief that they had permission from the kings of Castile as long as they made sure to pay them part of the proceeds, which was more or less true until 1573, when Philip II banned further conquest. It’s misleading to think of the Spaniards as spreading across a whole continent denuded by disease. It is North America where European settlers didn’t start to show up in large numbers until most people were already dead, and its because they didn’t show up there for another century after the conquistadors did their thing. In Central and South America, very many Indians did die of disease, but they still enormously outnumbered the interlopers. Spaniards didn’t flock to Potosi so they could die working in mines, they flocked there so they could profit off of Indians dying working in mines. e: source on all this is Henry Kamen’s “Spain’s Road to Empire”, which is consciously super revisionist about traditional narratives of how everything that happened in the 15th-17th centuries can be ascribed to We Brave Castilians and Our Most Christian Monarch etc. skasion fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 02:17
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Also I hope you all enjoyed Agesilaus' speedrun.
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Jul 24, 2020 02:18
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turns out you do not, in fact, "gotta hand it" to sparta
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Jul 24, 2020 02:22
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I will defend the honor of Epaminondas in 30 days
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Jul 24, 2020 02:26
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Fly Molo posted:lol @ all of this, just lol. Oh for sure, declaring war on your slaves every year is surely the hallmark of an Extremely High-Tier Society. Keep posting, you’re almost there. Was that a thing? Waging war on their own slaves?
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Jul 24, 2020 02:32
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Grand Fromage posted:Also I hope you all enjoyed Agesilaus' speedrun. Aww come on that could have gone on for a while
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Jul 24, 2020 02:38
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Dalael posted:Was that a thing? Waging war on their own slaves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypteia Possibly
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Jul 24, 2020 02:38
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Dalael posted:Was that a thing? Waging war on their own slaves? How grounded in reality is this? How frequent were these wars in practice, how many helots did they kill? Hard to say because the Spartans did not produce much literature. Nevertheless, that's a pretty bad look. Even Athenians who thought slavery was just peachy keen and looked up to the Spartans, thought the Spartans went overboard in treating their slaves like poo poo.
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Jul 24, 2020 02:38
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Dalael posted:Was that a thing? Waging war on their own slaves? Every year, Sparta would declare war against the helots. It wasn't an actual war that was fought, but it meant that legally, a Spartan citizen could kill a helot without it being considered murder.
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Jul 24, 2020 02:39
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Grand Fromage posted:Also I hope you all enjoyed Agesilaus' speedrun. I can honestly say that I did
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Jul 24, 2020 02:49
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Never expected to see “Theban Sympathiser” used without irony in 2020, but then this has been a year for surprises.
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Jul 24, 2020 02:54
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Beefeater1980 posted:Never expected to see “Theban Sympathiser” used without irony in 2020, but then this has been a year for surprises. Still not forgiving them for what they did to Antigone!
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Jul 24, 2020 02:56
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Imagine having a conversation about greatest classical Greeks and Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch don't even get mentioned. oh wait you don't have to we just did
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Jul 24, 2020 03:48
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Grand Fromage posted:Also I hope you all enjoyed Agesilaus' speedrun. You could have let the fun go on for at least another 12 hours
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Jul 24, 2020 03:56
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Arglebargle III posted:Imagine having a conversation about greatest classical Greeks and Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch don't even get mentioned. Or Syracuse.
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Jul 24, 2020 04:02
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Is there a good podcast revolving around the greeks pre Alexander? I started the Hellenistic Age podcast but that seems to start way later than early greek history.
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Jul 24, 2020 04:03
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Ancient Greece Declassified
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Jul 24, 2020 04:08
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Arglebargle III posted:Imagine having a conversation about greatest classical Greeks and Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch don't even get mentioned. The only one of those that was a Classical Greek city was Byzantion, and it wasn''t all that important during the period, just a former Megaran colony that was controlled by Persia that made its money off the Black Sea trade. It doesn't get important until Constantine refounds it. Alexandria was established by Alexander, and Antioch by the Seleucids. Classical Greece is basically just the Persian Wars, the Peloponesian War, and the conquest of Alexander. If your curious, the time periods are Homeric Greece/Dark Ages:1100 BC-800 BC Archaic Greece: 800 BC-480 BC Classical Greece: 480 BC-320 BC Hellenistic Greece: 320 BC-30 BC Roman Greece: 30 BC-either 400 AD or 1453, depending on whether you stick the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire in the "Ancient Greek" or "Medieval Greek" category. But the whole "Is the Byzantine Empire the same as the Roman Empire or is it distinct thing is something that goes around and around and nobody ever changes their mind.
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Jul 24, 2020 04:59
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who is Agesilaus
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Jul 24, 2020 05:21
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Epicurius posted:The only one of those that was a Classical Greek city was Byzantion, and it wasn''t all that important during the period, just a former Megaran colony that was controlled by Persia that made its money off the Black Sea trade. It doesn't get important until Constantine refounds it. Alexandria was established by Alexander, and Antioch by the Seleucids. "actually the classical period lasted 160 years" nah
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Jul 24, 2020 05:26
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Miss Broccoli posted:who is Agesilaus King of Sparta
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Jul 24, 2020 05:39
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cheetah7071 posted:anyways clearly the best hellenic people were the north macedonians
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Jul 24, 2020 05:50
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skasion posted:Spain did not wage transatlantic wars of conquest. That's my point. I'm saying the ability to do that just wasn't there, and without disease killing everyone those adventurers would have absolutely needed an actual army to subdue anyone. Indeed no state at that point could wage a war like that across the ocean. All of the native allies who helped the Spanish, lets use the Tlaxcala for instance, without losing their entire populations to disease would have just turned around and strengthened their own states/empires. When the Aztec Empire fell (which given how they ran things would have happened with or without the Spanish) it would have just been replaced with a Tlaxcala or similar led polity. With a population nearly nine times larger I seriously doubt the native elite would have been accepted being second fiddle to some minuscule group of conquistadores.
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Jul 24, 2020 05:52
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Miss Broccoli posted:who is Agesilaus Cato the Dumber
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Jul 24, 2020 06:01
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galagazombie posted:With a population nearly nine times larger I seriously doubt the native elite would have been accepted being second fiddle to some minuscule group of conquistadores.
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Jul 24, 2020 06:09
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