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8one6 posted:
If you don't think and believe that "YOU BECAME SEXUALLY AROUSED IN MY BODY" is the most hilariously read line in all of Voyager, then you are fundamentally wrong.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:26
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Those scenes where she just loving nails a Picardo impression really show how good an actress she is. I can't even articulate how the impression is so good but you're absolutely looking at the Doctor there.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:36
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:This article/blog is excellent. The popular notion of Kirk as a womanizer who charges into situations is a major pet peeve of mine. It's not only untrue but contradicted by a lot of situations in the original where Kirk used diplomacy and cunning instead of "drat the torpedoes, full speed ahead" to solve a problem. Just because he's not necessarily as philosophically deep as Picard doesn't mean he's a hothead. Even Anson Mount, who is an admitted superfan, says he's playing Pike in contrast to Kirk, the hotheaded womanizer. Meanwhile in universe the two captains probably had a lot in common, temperamentally. Part of the modern reading of Kirk could be because his relation to Picard, especially when you look at where his character was by the time TNG came on. Kirk of TOS was a hazy memory. Most recently we saw him take over the Enterprise from it's rightful Captain twice, the first time deliberately because he wanted to get back in the saddle. We were introduced to a new aspect of his personality/history with the Kobayashi Maru and his cheating on it. He struggled with his fast and loose playing with the rules in the past, growing old, becoming more mature--it was a new arc. It gave him a new dimension, but was not much related to TOS Kirk. Then he continued it stealing the Enterprise to save Spock, going back in time on a wild mission to save the world in the 20th century, and had a movie romance. Then comes Picard, who is already Kirk's age basically and looks older. He's presented as a contract to Kirk and Kirk's time, because the whole show is supposed to take place in a more enlightened era. Kirk is the frontier, the Wild West, the 19th century. Picard is modern, aspirational to a future beyond 1987. feedmyleg posted:Of course its progressive nature doesn't hold up to today's standards, it's crazy to think that it would. You've got to look at the show in the context of its time—when Pike says that he'll never get used to having a woman on the bridge, that's cringeworthy today. But at the time it was speaking directly to men who were having to adjust to the growing presence of women in the workforce and were confronted with similar attitudes in their own offices. But then you get to watch Number One go on and crush it for the rest of the episode and show that treating women like equals in the workplace is the way toward progress. It didn't get it perfect, but for its moment it was sending the right message to the audience who was viewing it. There are probably already many ways you can say TNG is racist, sexist, misogynist, transphobic, and harmful--and not just the obvious ones like Code of Honor. In 20 years TNG and the rest of 80s/90s Trek could be considered regressive shows that CHUDS watch. Lots of people grow and change their attitudes about things. If when they do so, they feel the need to judge art of the past by the better standards of the present, and reject it if it doesn't meet up to modern standards (or their new attitudes) then they won't find much acceptable in anything but new works. Maybe that's better, I dunno. I'm not sold on the idea personally.
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Jul 27, 2020 02:50
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Astroman posted:Lots of people grow and change their attitudes about things. If when they do so, they feel the need to judge art of the past by the better standards of the present, and reject it if it doesn't meet up to modern standards (or their new attitudes) then they won't find much acceptable in anything but new works. Maybe that's better, I dunno. I'm not sold on the idea personally. I don't think one necessarily has to discard works of art as they become more problematic, but it's not out of line to expect the way the work is remembered and presented to change with the times. Holding Star Trek, and especially TOS, up as some shining beacon of progressive TV runs the risk of giving people the wrong impression, and I'm afraid it might turn new viewers off the show when faced with how complicated a modern reading of the show becomes. I'm still watching it, but thus far it seems like a lot of the stuff that is progressive is spread through the show almost haphazardly, and at times the messages put forth seem contradictory. That might be because of opposing views during production; having absolute control over a production is usually impossible after all, or perhaps TOS went as far as was possible in the culture at the time, but I do wonder if Gene Roddenberry might have gotten more credit than he was always due. It's perhaps somewhat pessimistic, but could this be a William Moulton Marston, the creator of Wonder Woman, type of situation? One where the fantasies and proclivities, sexual and otherwise, help the male creator stumble onto a seemingly progressive message? I've not read a whole bunch about Gene and his vision, but my view of the man is probably somewhat colored by his influence over the early seasons of TNG always seeming to be detrimental and regressive. edit: My favorite TOS bit thus far is the dog in The Enemy Within. Very cute.
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Jul 27, 2020 10:03
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thotsky posted:I don't think one necessarily has to discard works of art as they become more problematic, but it's not out of line to expect the way the work is remembered and presented to change with the times. Holding Star Trek, and especially TOS, up as some shining beacon of progressive TV runs the risk of giving people the wrong impression, and I'm afraid it might turn new viewers off the show when faced with how complicated a modern reading of the show becomes. This came up a lot in this thread a couple of years ago, but generally: - Read The Fifty Year Mission if you are curious about the productions generally, especially the early stuff leading up to about Star Trek: The Motion Picture, after which the book gets a little more summary-level bit by bit. - Gene Coon is much more responsible for the tone and world-building established in the original show, but owing to having died in 1973 and Gene Roddenberry cultivating something of a cult of personality on the burgeoning convention scene, is much lesser known. - While Gene Roddenberry certainly was in favor of the show being idealistic, he is a terrible writer generally and his instincts about the show/what to do with the movies tended to be very bad. Gene wanted the shows to be idealistic and humanist to an absolute fault. He generally disapproved of interpersonal conflict between characters as something that wouldn't actually happen in the post-capitalist future, and TNG frequently recycled old TOS plots. He and his lawyer (who it is not entirely was acting under Gene's direction) were constantly editing scripts for the worse until he became too ill to remain as showrunner, after which the show immediately improved. - Roddenberry is an infamous horn dog and his production notes and ideas for the shows are full of weird sex poo poo that everyone else on the production did their best to ignore. His ideas for the movies, which he lost control of after TMP was a bit of a disaster, were bad and weird to the point of being hilarious. Anyway as far as Kirk Drift, TOS as a show is horny as hell and frankly as a show it's really uneven so it can be difficult to draw concrete conclusions. Maybe a third of the episodes hold up as good. Some are very silly, some (the worst) are outright boring. Essentially I agree with Astroman that the movies did a lot more to flesh out Kirk than the show ever did. Nimoy and his far more interesting character became the star of TOS, while Kirk's original ceiling was "Gene Roddenberry's idea of a sexy space sexman, man of action." So at the deep end of the bad writing you would get Kirk lamenting the dark fate of having to live as a woman, and on the shallow end you would get budget James Bond in space where Kirk uses his superior guile to woo and defeat a vile temptress. Then there's just the general plot element of Kirk getting laid on the reg and it's not much wonder how we ended up with the Futurama version of Kirk becoming ascendant. quote:There are probably already many ways you can say TNG is racist, sexist, misogynist, transphobic, and harmful--and not just the obvious ones like Code of Honor. In 20 years TNG and the rest of 80s/90s Trek could be considered regressive shows that CHUDS watch. Certainly none of the shows are perfectly progressive and 90's Trek in particular begins the trend of departing from the "better tomorrow" premise of Star Trek. Now we are suffering through an era of unremarkable pulp that tries to float on nostalgia. Name Change fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 10:48
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Grand Fromage posted:Those scenes where she just loving nails a Picardo impression really show how good an actress she is. I can't even articulate how the impression is so good but you're absolutely looking at the Doctor there. People tend to call this episode lovely because its an overused trope or something but it definitely shows Jeri Ryan acting abilities and the episode is about both bestest VOY actors. Sad they didn't have much more of those.
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Jul 27, 2020 12:47
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Just because someone is "progressive" doesn't mean they have no blind spots, and that's being charitable. Gene Roddenberry obviously had some pretty big issues with sexism even though he was ahead of his time on other things. Fortunately the franchise doesn't rest entirely on his shoulders, and many would agree that it got better the more other people got involved. ...not that the sexism exactly disappeared. Thank you Rick Berman.
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Jul 27, 2020 13:00
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I had forgotten that Chekov attempts to rape Kang’s wife in Day of the Dove when the alien light creature is influencing him
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Jul 27, 2020 13:43
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Grand Fromage posted:Those scenes where she just loving nails a Picardo impression really show how good an actress she is. I can't even articulate how the impression is so good but you're absolutely looking at the Doctor there. Likewise Hopkins in Thor: Ragnarok playing Loki playing Odin; you just kind of forget that it's their performance and not Picardo/Hiddlestone
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Jul 27, 2020 13:58
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Yeah I'm going to call out "The Dauphin" again, particularly the scene where Wesley sees Salia in her bestial form. It's not one of the episodes usually called out as being problematic but the whole thing is basically one long trans panic metaphor and it really sucked to watch that scene, because "boyfriend realizes his girlfriend has an unfeminine quality he doesn't approve of" usually ends up with the girlfriend (me and people like me) hurt or killed. I would be surprised if the team knew that was a thing at all, since most of the remotely mainstream cultural touchpoints for it weren't around in 1988-1989, but it really hasn't aged well and is really painful to watch, even if it was unintentional. It's been a long road these past 30 years, getting from there to here in terms of marginalized people and portrayals. There's nothing wrong with saying that these movies and shows haven't aged well, we can respect what they're trying to do in context. Arivia fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 14:24
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Arivia posted:It’s been a long road these past 30 years, getting from there to here in terms of marginalized people and portrayals. There's nothing wrong with saying that these movies and shows haven't aged well, we can respect what they're trying to do in context.
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Jul 27, 2020 14:49
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FlamingLiberal posted:Was this intentional of course lol
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Jul 27, 2020 15:01
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Just making sure you don’t have a bad case of Trek Brain TNG’s greatest failing was its lack of gay characters for sure though. Trans people basically didn’t exist in media much at that point either so if Berman didn’t want to put gay characters on the show I guarantee he wouldn’t even think about trans ones Even if the whole Trill species is a potential Trans allegory
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Jul 27, 2020 15:28
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FlamingLiberal posted:Just making sure you don’t have a bad case of Trek Brain They weren't often treated well but trans folks did exist in media from a lot longer than TNG era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_film_and_television Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 15:53
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Jul 27, 2020 16:10
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 I do drink a lot of iced coffee.
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Jul 27, 2020 16:41
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FlamingLiberal posted:Just making sure you don’t have a bad case of Trek Brain right, but the point I'm making is that stories can be awkward/problematic/not have aged well for alluding to/containing those elements, even if they're not explicitly including characters of those marginalized groups. The Dauphin isn't a trans story. It's not a Trill story. It's not the one about Riker and a third gender sex slave. It's a story about Wesley's first crush and the way they punched that up with sci-fi elements for Star Trek makes it really awkward for trans people, even if they didn't mean it to. Part of talking about older cultural texts is recognizing that they often say more about the culture of the time than was really apparent at the time, so criticizing them requires putting them back in their context to situate them correctly. (new historicism bithces) It doesn't mean Star Trek is wrong or bad, it just means we need to be insightful and thoughtful about it.
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Jul 27, 2020 16:41
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Anyway as far as Kirk Drift, TOS as a show is horny as hell and frankly as a show it's really uneven so it can be difficult to draw concrete conclusions. Maybe a third of the episodes hold up as good. Some are very silly, some (the worst) are outright boring. Essentially I agree with Astroman that the movies did a lot more to flesh out Kirk than the show ever did. Nimoy and his far more interesting character became the star of TOS, while Kirk's original ceiling was "Gene Roddenberry's idea of a sexy space sexman, man of action." So at the deep end of the bad writing you would get Kirk lamenting the dark fate of having to live as a woman, and on the shallow end you would get budget James Bond in space where Kirk uses his superior guile to woo and defeat a vile temptress. Then there's just the general plot element of Kirk getting laid on the reg and it's not much wonder how we ended up with the Futurama version of Kirk becoming ascendant. Kirk doesn't get laid on the regular. Far from it; he's regularly depicted in TOS as being a career man first. From Ruth to Areel Shaw (Court Martial) to Carol Marcus, Kirk is shown to have a series of relationships that he sacrificed for his career. In fact, Kirk's famous "no beach to walk on" monologue from The Naked Time is about how Kirk is "married" to his ship and has no time in his life for meaningful relationships with women. Even if TOS is oversexed (and I don't really think it is as much as its reputation suggests), Kirk is not nearly the horndog he's made out to be.
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Jul 27, 2020 16:43
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Here's a (very) comprehensive list of the kind we would expect from people who answer questions on stackexchange: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/32051/how-many-alien-women-has-capt-admiral-kirk-slept-with Riker was way more of a lovely poonhound and his role as a Kirk-like foil for Picard I think has influenced perceptions of Kirk.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:09
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Kirk doesn't get laid on the regular. Far from it; he's regularly depicted in TOS as being a career man first. From Ruth to Areel Shaw (Court Martial) to Carol Marcus, Kirk is shown to have a series of relationships that he sacrificed for his career. In fact, Kirk's famous "no beach to walk on" monologue from The Naked Time is about how Kirk is "married" to his ship and has no time in his life for meaningful relationships with women. Even if TOS is oversexed (and I don't really think it is as much as its reputation suggests), Kirk is not nearly the horndog he's made out to be.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:09
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While I don't think Kirk is a truly embarrassing character, going through every episode to determine who he canonically slept with is a very "beep boop I'm a context-free robot" way to approach it. To be clear I think people have Kirk Drift problems because in TOS he's just not that interesting of a character. And Gene Roddenberry's libertine horniness is always lurking just off the page. For example Riker is also duty first but is getting laid a lot in a way you couldn't necessarily write in the 60's, sometimes in eye-rolling ways. Gene's production notes are hilariously horny and sometimes even a little gross, but like I said people would write around it because they actually wanted to get the shows to TV. Nothing about this is a crime but Zapp Brannigan wouldn't really land with people the same way if they didn't recognize something. The most Zapp Brannigan thing possible is declaring that your only love is the ship and you have no time for serious relationships (while sleeping with women).
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Jul 27, 2020 17:55
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It’s viewers projecting their horn onto Kirk. Most of the hot women in the show are there to titillate the audience, at which they (and Bill Theiss) succeeded because the folk memory of the show is quite sexed up. People have problems remembering what precisely Kirk did not because Kirk isn’t interesting, but because most people who know about Kirk probably haven’t seen most or even more than a couple episodes of the show. TOS had a pop-cultural footprint that WAY exceeded its fandom. People picked up half-truths and generalizations and ran with them rather than obtain and watch in detail 60 hours of a weird tv show from years/decades ago (something which was not entirely trivial before the turn of the century). It’s just the “beam me up Scotty” thing on a different scale.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:09
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I think Kirk and Spock might be two of the most iconic TV characters of all time; people who've never seen Star Trek can likely recognize Spock if you showed them a picture. Incredible for such an old show.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:11
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The worst Riker one is Up the Long Ladder. Irish lady is extremely down and initiates but Jesus Christ Riker you are literally on duty right now.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:11
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Here's a (very) comprehensive list of the kind we would expect from people who answer questions on stackexchange: Um, actually, I think you'll find this list omits a certain romantic rendezvous on Cestus III with the Gorn captain. A desperate search for some special powder to make sure there would be an explosive finish, lots of attention to making his barrel rigid and hard, ready to facilitate penetration. Don't get me started on the erotic grappling! And how the episode teases us! We see the Gorn captain literally get his rocks off throwing boulders, but we never know if Kirk's ersatz membrum virile will fire when the moment comes. All silhouetted against the upward thrusting majesty of the Vasquez Rocks. Truly, the most desperately passionate episode of the Original Series ever to make it to air (excepting of course Spock's Brain, about which what needs to be said?)
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Jul 27, 2020 18:13
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I think a huge part of the change in perception of Kirk's character was due to Shatner's off-screen persona. While not a horn dog as far as I know, he certainly had the ego, arrogance, and foolhardiness that has attached itself to the cultural perception of Kirk.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:27
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Admiralty Flag posted:Um, actually, I think you'll find this list omits a certain romantic rendezvous on Cestus III with the Gorn captain. A desperate search for some special powder to make sure there would be an explosive finish, lots of attention to making his barrel rigid and hard, ready to facilitate penetration. Don't get me started on the erotic grappling! And how the episode teases us! We see the Gorn captain literally get his rocks off throwing boulders, but we never know if Kirk's ersatz membrum virile will fire when the moment comes. All silhouetted against the upward thrusting majesty of the Vasquez Rocks. Truly, the most desperately passionate episode of the Original Series ever to make it to air (excepting of course Spock's Brain, about which what needs to be said?) Stop reading Tumblr. Or CineD, whichever applies. 
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Jul 27, 2020 18:35
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START reading tumblr tbh.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:37
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Its literally only Star Trek 3 where Kirk stops being extremely straight-laced. Cheating at the Kobiashi Maru gets retconned into his character in 2, but he only starts breaking rules on-stage quite late.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:38
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John Wick of Dogs posted:The worst Riker one is Up the Long Ladder. That is his duty. To get that booty.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:40
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I think some of the change in perception of Kirk is the movies, specifically Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock. This isn't so much true for the womanizing (although they give Kirk a son from a previous relationship), but things like Kirk cheating on the Kobiyashi Maru, the idea that Kirk never suffered loss before or knew what it was like to suffer (when, in the show, the best way to die was to show up in a single episode as an old friend, relative, or lover of Kirk), and the fact that he violated all sorts of orders to bring Spock back to life, sort of made the popular perception of character this devil-may-care rogue who never took anything seriously, led with his fists and didn't believe in rules. While, of course, in the series, Kirk was cautious, cerebral, believed in talking enemies down, and tended to be pretty by the book and strict.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:54
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The Undiscovered Country even embraced the horndog rep, with kissing the alien shapeshifter in Rura Penthe and Bones' line "What is it with you?"
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Jul 27, 2020 19:02
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I like this page in the section of abandoned designs of the Enterprise Officer's Manual (1980) OBSOLETE
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Jul 27, 2020 19:16
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Epicurius posted:I think some of the change in perception of Kirk is the movies, specifically Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock. This isn't so much true for the womanizing (although they give Kirk a son from a previous relationship), but things like Kirk cheating on the Kobiyashi Maru, the idea that Kirk never suffered loss before or knew what it was like to suffer (when, in the show, the best way to die was to show up in a single episode as an old friend, relative, or lover of Kirk), and the fact that he violated all sorts of orders to bring Spock back to life, sort of made the popular perception of character this devil-may-care rogue who never took anything seriously, led with his fists and didn't believe in rules. While, of course, in the series, Kirk was cautious, cerebral, believed in talking enemies down, and tended to be pretty by the book and strict. Its because the films are about old men at the end of their careers (well, Kirk and McCoy) so it makes absolute sense that Kirk stops giving a gently caress in order to do what he wants.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:22
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Alchenar posted:Its because the films are about old men at the end of their careers (well, Kirk and McCoy) so it makes absolute sense that Kirk stops giving a gently caress in order to do what he wants. Sure. It's also about how Kirk's friendship with Spock is so powerful he's willing to break the rules and ruin his career for the chance of saving him. But for people who's first experience to Star Trek was the movies, it colors the way you see the character.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:39
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John Wick of Dogs posted:The worst Riker one is Up the Long Ladder.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:53
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Epicurius posted:Sure. It's also about how Kirk's friendship with Spock is so powerful he's willing to break the rules and ruin his career for the chance of saving him. But for people who's first experience to Star Trek was the movies, it colors the way you see the character. One thing I thought was kind of interesting about TUC is how much it seemed like Kirk and Spock had finally drifted apart a good bit, at the beginning of the movie. It was an interesting change in dynamic.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:53
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John Wick of Dogs posted:The worst Riker one is Up the Long Ladder. FlamingLiberal posted:I really try not to think of that episode Put all the episodes into a ranked list, from best to worst. Then, you start at the top... and work your way down. 
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Jul 27, 2020 20:07
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You can easily make the case that Up the Long Ladder is the worst episode of the series
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Jul 27, 2020 20:50
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:This article/blog is excellent. The popular notion of Kirk as a womanizer who charges into situations is a major pet peeve of mine. It's not only untrue but contradicted by a lot of situations in the original where Kirk used diplomacy and cunning instead of "drat the torpedoes, full speed ahead" to solve a problem. Just because he's not necessarily as philosophically deep as Picard doesn't mean he's a hothead. Funny. Kirk was a philosophy professor and Picard was a jock during their respective times at the academy.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:55
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