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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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cda posted:I personally believe that it's probably a pretty complicated calculus outside of george w bush to determine who's the worst, a la for example this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...f125_story.html 7000 people per year is almost nothing compared to the destabilisation of entire regions, not to mention trump's "failure" to keep up the escalation that his generals wanted in Iran.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:22
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spunkshui posted:Does he still? no after he benefited from being, functionally, a virus denier, he stopped. A true hero
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Jul 27, 2020 20:25
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How are u posted:That is such a weird way of looking at everything that happened in Libya during the Arab Spring. Obama didn't topple that government or institute open-air slave markets. If something happens as a direct result of the president's actions then I have very little trouble blaming them for it. Obama killed astronomical numbers of people through his policies and actions, and I feel like downplaying it exposes some of the ugliest facets of American consciousness.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:26
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm pretty sure that vietnam was a serious blow to the american empire and caused lasting difficulties in mobilising direct military interventions for a long time How do you figure? For like...maybe five years, if even? The Vietnam War looked bad, but it didn't put a serious dent in American imperial ambitions. Direct military interventions aren't really the main tool of modern empires anyway.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:30
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:To deny the fact that Trump has caused less human suffering overall while in office than Obama, Bush 2, Clinton, or Bush 1 is absurd on its face. Well they did have 8 while trump had to squeeze all his horrors into 3.5 years. Give trump 4 more then. Seems to be the general mood of this thread.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:31
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spunkshui posted:Well they did have 8 while trump had to squeeze all his horrors into 3.5 years. Nobody here wants to give Trump four more years.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:32
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MonsieurChoc posted:Lol that's dumb as hell. I said this before, but if you take the primaries as indicative of how people view Biden, then if they all chose to not vote for him, even if you granted him Bloomberg voters, Trump would actually have a chance to win California. I know that I am not the decisive vote that matters, but voting isn't about being a hero who changes the course of history. It's about cooperating with a bunch of other people to get the best you can get. And those people aren't mindless hordes. They're human beings who also doubt and compromise. Like you do understand the bucket is made up of tiny drops right? If at the end of the day, I think a Biden presidency is a better result, why should I let other people take the responsibility of making that happen? Not voting for Biden for my own Progressive purity while crossing my fingers that he wins is cowardly even if I was in a blue state. It's also not about blame. I mean the reality is that Biden or any better candidate would be a sure bet if we could have sensible and accessible voting in America. If Biden loses, it's on Biden and the DNC for not vetting him or keeping him out of the primaries altogether. But I do dismiss the idea that choosing to not vote when you could have or voting third party when you're not doing anything else to advance that party outside of ceremonial support every four years does not help Trump. Of course it does, even if it's tiny and incremental. It doesn't make you a monster, but reality is reality. There is a Trump vote that mattered more because you did not cancel it out. If you could have voted, your decision not to or vote third party helped Trump. But if there was just really no way you were ever going to vote for Biden because you'd rather wether Trump out or because he'a a rapist or because you actually support the Green Party and do things to advance them when you're not just trying to make a point every four years, fine.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:33
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How are u posted:That is such a weird way of looking at everything that happened in Libya during the Arab Spring. Obama didn't topple that government or institute open-air slave markets. and while we're whitewashing the failures of American regime change efforts, George W. Bush did not personally found ISIS
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Jul 27, 2020 20:33
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Do Americans believe that being born in one of the countries that the American military kills countless thousands of people in is a form of privilege? That's certainly a take. Pentecoastal Elites posted:What has Trump done specifically to make life much worse for most people of lower income in america that wasn't already happening and/or generally or fully supported by the Democrats? I'll also be very impressed if you can find something that Joe Biden hasn't either intimated or directly stated that he has no plans to stop. The reason this is a privilege thing is that if you don't see the difference its cuz you're not the one getting hosed over by it. And you don't care about those who are, or you wouldn't deem them acceptable losses in your crusade against SuccDems. Out of sight, out of mind.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:34
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:7000 people per year is almost nothing compared to the destabilisation of entire regions, not to mention trump's "failure" to keep up the escalation that his generals wanted in Iran. I guess it seems to me that you can't even put any figures on this stuff at all, just a vague sense that Trump is better than previous presidents. It's not like he's been going around stabilizing poo poo. How many deaths is he responsible for in Venezuela, for instance. The world is not a markedly more stable place because of Trump's actions, and when I say that I'm not just talking about the way that he's hosed up US relations with countries or whatever, I'm talking about the literal covert actions being carried out by his government around the world with the explicit purpose of destablizing countries. Why do you think that that sort of stuff has stopped? Just because of what he says?
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Jul 27, 2020 20:35
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spunkshui posted:Well they did have 8 while trump had to squeeze all his horrors into 3.5 years. You can measure any of them by a single term and they're still worse and more damaging than Trump. I'd honestly think it better to keep the incompetent guy in office who isn't very good at killing people rather than replacing him with a guy who will do as he's told and start a war with Iran.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:35
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spunkshui posted:Well they did have 8 while trump had to squeeze all his horrors into 3.5 years. Yup you got us, we have serious reservations about Biden and his willingness to actually address the myriad problems facing America, which means we actually think Trump is the greatest president to ever live. When people come in here and post hyperbolic things like "Trump is DESTROYING poor people!" you shouldn't act surprised when you get responses asking what they thought the conditions of the poor were pre-Trump. People are being quite patient about it, if anything. Honestly I'm usually tempted to just post that gif of Obama pretending to sip Flint water.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:35
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spunkshui posted:Well they did have 8 while trump had to squeeze all his horrors into 3.5 years. are you referring to libya? because that happened early in 2011
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Jul 27, 2020 20:36
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How are u posted:That is such a weird way of looking at everything that happened in Libya during the Arab Spring. Obama didn't topple that government or institute open-air slave markets. Get the gently caress outta here with this bullshit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI "We came, we saw, he died.... Hahahaha!" -Obama Secretary of State, some person. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/libya-isis-hillary-clinton.html The first news reports of Colonel Qaddafi’s capture and killing in October 2011 reached the secretary of state in Kabul, Afghanistan, where she had just sat down for a televised interview. “Wow!” she said, looking at an aide’s BlackBerry before cautiously noting that the report had not yet been confirmed. But Hillary Clinton seemed impatient for a conclusion to the multinational military intervention she had done so much to organize, and in a rare unguarded moment, she dropped her reserve. “We came, we saw, he died!” she exclaimed. Two days before, Mrs. Clinton had taken a triumphal tour of the Libyan capital, Tripoli, and for weeks top aides had been circulating a “ticktock” that described her starring role in the events that had led to this moment. The timeline, her top policy aide, Jake Sullivan, wrote, demonstrated Mrs. Clinton’s “leadership/ownership/stewardship of this country’s Libya policy from start to finish.” The memo’s language put her at the center of everything: “HRC announces … HRC directs … HRC travels … HRC engages,” it read.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:37
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cda posted:How do you figure? For like...maybe five years, if even? The Vietnam War looked bad, but it didn't put a serious dent in American imperial ambitions. Direct military interventions aren't really the main tool of modern empires anyway. it led to a retreat from the region and a permanent change in the military capacities of the american foreign project in the rejection of large boots-on-the-ground interventions for literal decades until afghanistan and iraq, as well as ending the draft. that style of intervention isn't the standard mode of operations for the US these days because vietnam discredited it i'm having a hard time even formulating a response to the claim 'vietnam wasn't actually a setback for the US empire'
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Jul 27, 2020 20:39
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I dunno, maybe pick literally anything Trump has done in the last 4 years, every policy change, the incompetent or irrelevant response to crisis, every destructive goblin put in charge of an agency they want to destroy? Or - and stick with me here - maybe they have been screwed by Trump and do care, which is exactly why they won't support a candidate that doesn't propose policies that will fix that. Calling someone "privileged" without bothering to grasp where they're coming from is one of the last refuges of a scoundrel.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:39
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The reason this is a privilege thing is that if you don't see the difference its cuz you're not the one getting hosed over by it. This is incredibly ironic for an American to post lol You have no loving idea what your government does to the rest of the world that we all have to live in and you don't seem to give a poo poo as long as you don't have to see a guy on TV who says the quiet part loud. You definitely don't get to call us "privileged" for it, Jesus Christ.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:40
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I dunno, maybe pick literally anything Trump has done in the last 4 years, every policy change, the incompetent or irrelevant response to crisis, every destructive goblin put in charge of an agency they want to destroy? Joe Biden voted to build a wall at the Mexican border, and threw children into dog cages on the grounds that the Mexican border required a policy of "aggressive deterrence," OP. at what point did the state violently cracking down on those viewed as a threat to its racial purity, in the hopes their suffering could be exchanged for Republican votes, go from acceptable trade-off to unacceptable tragedy in your mind. and how many picoseconds after Trump was elected was it. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 20:41
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:This is incredibly ironic for an American to post lol America is one of the worst places on earth to raise a family. Don't tell me we cant have it lovely over here. Family healthcare costs are really really really really really lovely.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:41
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spunkshui posted:America is one of the worst places on earth to raise a family. We export our shittiness, and the shittiness of our wonderful capitalist system, to the rest of the world. But as undeniably lovely as life is for us here, it's not quite the same as your wedding being droned by a president wishing to prove his "strong on terror" bona fides.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:44
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cda posted:I guess it seems to me that you can't even put any figures on this stuff at all, just a vague sense that Trump is better than previous presidents. It's not like he's been going around stabilizing poo poo. How many deaths is he responsible for in Venezuela, for instance. This is a curious example since Biden as we all know is attacking Trump for not being belligerent nor competent enough to properly destabilize Venezuela
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Jul 27, 2020 20:45
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I dunno, maybe pick literally anything Trump has done in the last 4 years, every policy change, the incompetent or irrelevant response to crisis, every destructive goblin put in charge of an agency they want to destroy? I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly naive and shortsighted view of US politics, and the reason why I keep saying that the liberal objection to Trump is entirely aesthetic. You didn't even attempt to address my point before clamoring to post about how I am a privileged leftist who doesn't care for the little people on my purity politics crusade. So, please, could you answer the question? What has Trump, specifically, done that has hosed over the "people I don't care about" that hasn't been: - either bog-standard US domestic policy or directly and very obviously on track since at least the Reagan administration - meaningfully different from even the Obama administration's cruelties to the poorest and most vulnerable in America and abroad (deportation and border internment, drone bombings, "foaming the runways" and the decimation of black wealth, etc etc) -- to say nothing of GWB! - hasn't been either fully or mostly supported by the so-called resistance democrats (massive wealth transfer, corporate relief and cuts, military and intelligence budgets, etc etc) You want to view Trump as some sort of hideous, horrifying, ahistorical demon unleashed on an otherwise nice and fine America, but Trump is just a very natural extension of where this has all been going for decades and decades. It has always been this bad, things are just coming to a head and you want to lay it at the feet of the freakin' cheeto in chief because it's very uncomfortable to admit that nice and safe Obama and kind and polite John McCain or whoever are just as culpable (and very often way more so) than freakin' donald drumpf
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Jul 27, 2020 20:46
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spunkshui posted:America is one of the worst places on earth to raise a family. You know who's got it way loving worse than you? Libya. Do you have any idea whose fault that might be? It's not Trump. Aside from that, the idea that Trump is anywhere close to being the primary reason that life in America is a nightmare is outright farcical.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:47
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spunkshui posted:America is one of the worst places on earth to raise a family. Also, maternity leave doesn't exist, our public K-12 system is a mess, and the government doesn't do much besides throws minimal tax credits at people. It doesn't make economic sense to have kids in the US even if you want them. --------------------- Btw, I don't think Trump hasn't bombed countries because of an intrinsic desire not to but in all honesty, I think that the US military is afraid of Russian/Chinese intervention at this point. It is why we never went whole hog in Syria, and probably we are only sanctioning Venezuela. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 20:48
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Ardennes posted:Also, maternity leave doesn't exist, our public K-12 system is a mess, and the government doesn't do much besides throws minimal tax credits at people. Exactly which part of this is new to the Trump administration? This has been the American establishment's exact course of action for decades.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:50
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Exactly which part of this is new to the Trump administration? This has been the American establishment's exact course of action for decades. It will just even worse under Trump (who really really doesn't give a poo poo) and I don't know if accelerationism is going to work out in the short term. It is a rock and a hard place.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:53
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:You know who's got it way loving worse than you? Libya. Do you have any idea whose fault that might be? It's not Trump. It was Muammar Ghaddafi's fault. He chose to engage in a bloody civil war and mass-murder instead of listen to the Libyan people demanding government reforms. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 27, 2020 20:55
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How are u posted:It was Muammar Ghaddafi's fault. He chose to engage in a bloody civil war and mass-murder instead of listen to the Libyan people demanding government reforms. tiberion02 posted:Get the gently caress outta here with this bullshit.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:55
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Voting green is not accelerationism, it's the only chance you have at actual progress. You need to have the courage to believe that better things are possible, and that by having actual principles and acting upon them you can make the world a better place. The Democrats are not the people you believe will ever make anything better, all you have to do is act in accordance with what you know to be true. An accelerationist would vote for Trump, which is not what anyone in this thread is saying to do.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:57
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Ardennes posted:accelerationism I'm sorry, I have to take issue with the idea that Trump is "accelerationism" and Biden is "not accelerationism". Maybe, if we're being really generous and we can somehow compare a second Trump term vs a Biden presidency we could say confidently that the latter would include perceptibly less "acceleration", but we're already on our way down the hill and we've been dismantling our breaks for the last fifty years at least.
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Jul 27, 2020 20:57
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Timeless Appeal posted:But I do dismiss the idea that choosing to not vote when you could have or voting third party when you're not doing anything else to advance that party outside of ceremonial support every four years does not help Trump. Of course it does, even if it's tiny and incremental. It doesn't make you a monster, but reality is reality. There is a Trump vote that mattered more because you did not cancel it out. If you could have voted, your decision not to or vote third party helped Trump. Dismiss the idea all you want, you're still obviously wrong. Now get over it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 27, 2020 20:57
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How are u posted:It was Muammar Ghaddafi's fault. He chose to engage in a bloody civil war and mass-murder instead of listen to the Libyan people demanding government reforms. You know that isn't the whole story. The US and the rest of NATO had everything in its power to not let everything fall apart after Ghaddfi died. Ghaddafi's heavy handed rule led to the initial conflict, but it was particularly the US that was responsible for the last 9 years of horror. Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm sorry, I have to take issue with the idea that Trump is "accelerationism" and Biden is "not accelerationism". Maybe, if we're being really generous and we can somehow compare a second Trump term vs a Biden presidency we could say confidently that the latter would include perceptibly less "acceleration", but we're already on our way down the hill and we've been dismantling our breaks for the last fifty years at least. I don't disagree, but rather that something tactically voting to buy themselves and their family some time before the entire ship sinks is at least defensible. (I wouldn't do it personally since I live in Oregon and my vote really doesn't matter beyond state issues.) Also, I am skeptical any third party in the US is going to amount to anything especially how the Democratic primary. I think we are on a set course, the only variable is the speed we get there. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 20:57
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How is Biden not accelerationism The Obama-Biden administration's devotion to enriching the rich and impoverishing the poor is how we got here
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Jul 27, 2020 20:59
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How are u posted:It was Muammar Ghaddafi's fault. He chose to engage in a bloody civil war and mass-murder instead of listen to the Libyan people demanding government reforms. sucks about that second civil war that's picked up. who do we kill now?
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Jul 27, 2020 20:59
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MonsieurChoc posted:Dismiss the idea all you want, you're still obviously wrong.
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Jul 27, 2020 21:00
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Obama pretended to drink toxic water in order to save peanuts on replacing the pipes in Flint! He used his charisma and good name to convince poor people to poison their children to save the rich a buck. He is the accelerationist.
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Jul 27, 2020 21:02
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spunkshui posted:America is one of the worst places on earth to raise a family. i really like reading these kinds of posts because it is a very good demonstration of why libs are the most detestable worms on this blighted earth. america is bad, not because of anything like exporting terror throughout the globe and murdering millions in wars over mineral rights, its because the cost of childcare personally impacts them. america is the worst place on earth to raise a family, on par with the loving congo, because pre- and post-natal care make your bank account cry, and it is actually us who are morally bankrupt because we refuse to cast a meaningless vote for the rapist that promises that nothing will change for a dipshit that cries about privilege, you sure are bereft of real loving problems if you think that its the cost of childcare that makes this rotten hellhole a poor place to live (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 27, 2020 21:02
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spunkshui posted:America is one of the worst places on earth to raise a family. This is privilege. You have no loving clue what you are talking about. Yes, being poor in the US sucks. But it sucks far less than being poor in the global south. Why do you think hundreds of thousands of Central American families are willing to make a deadly migration to the southern US border? For a chance to work in agriculture or in a chicken plant? The greatest form of privilege on earth is to think that foreign policy is a mere detail. Because you can only think that way when you know for sure that it is not going to be you getting droned, couped, sanctioned and starved to death.
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Jul 27, 2020 21:04
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Libya is basically a trolley problem where there was a million people on the tracks so we pulled the lever to divert to another track that also had a million people on the tracks.
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Jul 27, 2020 21:07
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Mellow Seas posted:Libya is basically a trolley problem where there was a million people on the tracks so we pulled the lever to divert to another track that also had a million people on the tracks. without knowing anything yet i'm going to guess that the united states is somehow involved in the lovely situation that they were in when we started blowing things up. i'm looking forward to learning about it. i'll report back asap
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Jul 27, 2020 21:09
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