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New Hellboy RPG from Mantic. Using 5e. I know all the reasons that makes perfect sense from their standpoint, but drat, how disappointing.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:18
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Hey, neat, that sounds- oh. Oh, no. Can we go back to Hellboy being a GURPS book, please?
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Aug 3, 2020 18:19
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EverettLO posted:New Hellboy RPG from Mantic. Idk poo poo about 5e, why is this a bad thing
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Aug 3, 2020 19:33
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Imagine a fine, strong square peg in your mind’s eye. Now imagine it being shoved violently yet ineffectually into a round hole.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:34
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FirstAidKite posted:Idk poo poo about 5e, why is this a bad thing There's nothing especially wrong with 5E, as a vehicle for delivering Dungeons and/or Dragons. But it's not really an appropriate rules sytem for doing things that are not D&D. And Hellboy is not D&D. Kind of like how D20 was not a great fit for World of Darkness (although I guess that turned into its own weird thing in Monte Cook's hands), Aberrant, Call of Cthulhu, etc etc.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:44
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EverettLO posted:New Hellboy RPG from Mantic. I love Hellboy but this is definitely a hard pass for me. What a bad mismatch.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:52
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Is it just because of the setting being so different or something else? I don't know anything about world of darkness d20 being a bad thing and I never looked at call of cthulhu. I apologize for being so difficult here, I just am super unfamiliar with a lot of these comparisons to other rule system problems so when I see someone say that it's an issue like how world of darkness d20 was an issue, I'm left thinking "this hasn't explained anything" and feeling like an rear end in a top hat for not understanding.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:54
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FirstAidKite posted:Idk poo poo about 5e, why is this a bad thing Imagine making an RPG and unlike basically every other RPG company on the planet, you actually have the resources, the staff, the reach to actually test it aggressively. You could really try and push the design of RPGs forward, explore some bold new ideas, make the game easier to GM and get all the math sorted. Instead you say gently caress that and poo poo out the most milquetoast, lazy rear end edition you possibly can and steadfastly refuse to make any new rules. Why make rules when you can shove all the work on the GM and call it “empowering the players” like a 60s parody of a workshy hippy. Imagine the biggest arsehole you know being in charge of this product, his whole plan to do the least work possible on this, to just to cover his own arse and just maintain D&D existing and coast along on his contract. Imagine it becoming a huge unimaginable success on the back of streaming and this toss pot taking endless victory laps about his genius and vision. Imagine that. That’s 5e D&D. I don’t much care for it.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:00
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... that still doesn't actually explain anything.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:04
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5e's core mechanics are designed around a very specific kind of play that doesn't really line up with what one would imagine you'd do in a hellboy game, that's really as plainly as you can put it. I am sure you could take what 5e is and make it "work" for the kind of games one would want to play with Hellboy, but I, and I'm sure lots of other people, would have prefered a system better equipped to handle those experiences.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:10
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That and the guy in charge of 5e's development used RPGPundit and Zak S. as testers because they wanted to court a more old school/OSR audience after 4e, credited them, got accusations about them being a narcissistic racist and a narcissistic sex offender/serial abuser respectively, gave the accusations to them along with info on the accusers, took them at face value when they said nope we didn't do those things and then never apologized for his role in the whole shebang. And then Hasbro has just been shuffling Mearls around like a pedophile priest while not acknowledging any of it. 5e has mechanical problems but it also has moral and ethical problems.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:13
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Hostile V posted:That and the guy in charge of 5e's development used RPGPundit and Zak S. as testers because they wanted to court a more old school/OSR audience after 4e, credited them, got accusations about them being a narcissistic racist and a narcissistic sex offender/serial abuser respectively, gave the accusations to them along with info on the accusers, took them at face value when they said nope we didn't do those things and then never apologized for his role in the whole shebang. And then Hasbro has just been shuffling Mearls around like a pedophile priest while not acknowledging any of it. Ah, that definitely helps, thank you. I didn't follow 5e much at all and only kinda-sorta followed 4e so I missed all of that.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:21
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In addition to the pants making GBS threads rapist thing, the TG as an industry thread also raised a number of issues at WOTC regarding BIPOC treatment and representation. Edit: I just wanted to remove any ambiguity that Zak S is a pants making GBS threads rapist. Edit 2: Just use Gumshoe or Night's Black Agents for Hellboy. Like most of the supernatural stuff is, at best, tied to folklore, so there's probably already a decent foundation for things. GrandpaPants fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 20:37
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Zurai posted:... that still doesn't actually explain anything. What I meant is that class/level based gameplay isn't great for Hellboy. The comics have parties with wildly varying power levels and abilities. This can be accomplished satisfactorily, notably by Cortex or FATE or other more narrative systems. A grid based combat system where the primary difference in power level is reflected by levels is going to have to be shoehorned to fit both Hellboy and a more standard BPRD agent. Additionally, the race/class thing will limit the creativity of players to make unique agents in a way an effects based system wouldn't. There honestly haven't been too many 5e attempts to really push the system like there was in 3e, so maybe they'll come out and make a 5th edition version of something like Mutants and Masterminds, but i doubt it. I expect a very high production value book that does almost nothing new to make the system work for a modern setting. Edit: additionally, 5e doesn't do much beyond straight combat all that well. The entire investigative part of Hellboy comics will be an afterthought rather than a core part of the game. EverettLO fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 21:20
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Thanks. I was actually referring to HidaO-Win's rant, but your post was quite instructional for someone who is only passingly familiar with 5E because most of the major Actual Play podcasts/streams use it. Non-combat challenges have definitely been D&D's (and successor systems') Achilles heel pretty much from the start, so that's not surprising.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:48
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GrandpaPants posted:Edit 2: Just use Gumshoe or Night's Black Agents for Hellboy. Like most of the supernatural stuff is, at best, tied to folklore, so there's probably already a decent foundation for things. Seriously, this would have been such a better approach and probably an instant buy. My guess is that they're doing it through 5e because it's open license and that's just lazier.
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Aug 3, 2020 22:42
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Setting all the terrible behind-the-curtains poo poo aside, which is indeed numerous, it turns out that trying to hack a game to be something it isn't meant to be has diminishing returns. It's not impossible to use a game's framework to do different things, but it's the sort of thing that requires a shitload of hard work and talent and most 5E hacks of a thing have neither.
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Aug 3, 2020 22:57
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moths posted:Seriously, this would have been such a better approach and probably an instant buy. My guess is that they're doing it through 5e because it's open license and that's just lazier. I mean, Gumshoe has an open license too. I think they're just doing D&D because either nobody over there has heard of anything but D&D, or they're banking on most of their audience not having done so. (To be fair, I have no idea what the terms of either license are, maybe that's an issue.)
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Aug 3, 2020 23:23
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its 100% cause of name recognition and also to have a shot at being featured on the big streaming channels
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Aug 3, 2020 23:25
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GrandpaPants posted:Edit 2: Just use Gumshoe or Night's Black Agents for Hellboy. Like most of the supernatural stuff is, at best, tied to folklore, so there's probably already a decent foundation for things. Chill sounds like a good fit, if you can find it. If it didn't predate Supernatural by a good 20 years it would be Supernatural: the RPG with the serials filed off.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:56
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Kai Tave posted:Setting all the terrible behind-the-curtains poo poo aside, which is indeed numerous, it turns out that trying to hack a game to be something it isn't meant to be has diminishing returns. It's not impossible to use a game's framework to do different things, but it's the sort of thing that requires a shitload of hard work and talent and most 5E hacks of a thing have neither. Indeed. There's a reskin of the Fate franchise a guy wrote and published on DTRPG and while I'm tempted... it's 5E trying to do something very anime and also like $30 and also also it's 5E. So. And to the writer's credit he's been using it as a long-running campaign but that's a lot of money to throw at a supplement for a game I don't even like and have doubts about whether it can handle.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:14
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Probably the best 5E hack I've seen is the Bungie's Destiny hack which probably works because Destiny by and large is just D&D with guns anyway.
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Aug 4, 2020 04:42
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Monster of the Week would work fine for a Hellboy game
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Aug 4, 2020 12:00
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malkav11 posted:I mean, Gumshoe has an open license too. I think they're just doing D&D because either nobody over there has heard of anything but D&D, or they're banking on most of their audience not having done so. Gumshoe is under the very liberal Creative Commons Attribution licence. The OGL (which 3E and 5E were released under) has some weird barnacles -- it actually predates Creative Commons and so they didn't have a lot of prior licences to base their work on. But the main way the OGL is more restrictive than Creative Commons Attribution is by design: derivative works under the OGL have to also come under the OGL, whereas derivative works under Creative Commons Attribution can be all rights reserved. Anyway, probably more information than you needed! Just wanted to explain that they're not avoiding Gumshoe because of the licence.
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Aug 4, 2020 12:01
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Sanglorian posted:Gumshoe is under the very liberal Creative Commons Attribution licence. The OGL (which 3E and 5E were released under) has some weird barnacles -- it actually predates Creative Commons and so they didn't have a lot of prior licences to base their work on. But the main way the OGL is more restrictive than Creative Commons Attribution is by design: derivative works under the OGL have to also come under the OGL, whereas derivative works under Creative Commons Attribution can be all rights reserved. It's absolutely not a "weird barnacle", it's a fundamental descision about usage rights that was first clearly stated in 1985 related to open source software rights. It's a concept referred to these days as "Copyleft". They had almost two decades of open source licensing ideas to draw on when they wrote up the OGL. Pretty much all open source licenses are split into either copyleft or non-copyleft camps, although a small number of projects are licensed under multi licensing schemes to give the choice to the next project downstream.
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Aug 4, 2020 12:41
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It is also the crux of “have I accidentally given my stuff away” because of clause 8 and the frequency with which it is not followed: 8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content. Because that clear indication is vital in the definitions: (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; Without clear identifier you open a lot of doors to what is or is not allowed to be copied.
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Aug 4, 2020 13:00
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Super Ultimate Werewolf Extreme Hyper Turbo Championship II Edition just launched I loving adore Werewolf/Mafia, but man Blood on the Clock Tower is still the bigger draw for me if/when I ever picked up a box version of the format. One Night Ultimate is just as good for small groups as well. ---------------------- Also remember kiddies Wyrmwood Modular Table allegedly launches today, so slam the preorder button and worry about accessories afterwards. Maybe next year for me  But that's only cause the pledge managers for a bunch of poo poo I kickstarted launched in the last week and I've finalised payments 
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Aug 4, 2020 14:27
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quote:It's absolutely not a "weird barnacle", it's a fundamental descision about usage rights that was first clearly stated in 1985 related to open source software rights. It's a concept referred to these days as "Copyleft". They had almost two decades of open source licensing ideas to draw on when they wrote up the OGL. Good to clarify. I had tried to communicate that by saying that the main way the OGL is more restrictive is by design. The barnacles I am thinking of are: * The possibility for an ever-growing Section 15, with each derivative work having to include an entry for each work that any work it is derived from was derived from * The effective ban on attribution of source works, except through clumsy Section 15 entries * Product Identity as a kind of pseudo-trademark, potentially much more extensive than trademarks but not tested in the courts as far as I'm aware of EDIT: They did have two decades of free software/open source licences, but they didn't have many examples of free culture licences. Even in software, there also weren't many flagship products that I'm aware of that were released under free software licences after having gotten big. Netscape (now Firefox) would be one of the rare examples. Some of the odd features of the OGL that aren't present in other licences probably reflect the worries of a big company that is risking its flagship product. Sanglorian fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 14:30
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Jesus Christ, Werewolf! You don't need 5,000 bits of info on the card. Or a 200 page strategy guide!
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Aug 4, 2020 14:33
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Echophonic posted:Jesus Christ, Werewolf! You don't need 5,000 bits of info on the card. Or a 200 page strategy guide! Confusing! That's the word I was looking for! It's late =_=
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Aug 4, 2020 14:35
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Sanglorian posted:Good to clarify. I had tried to communicate that by saying that the main way the OGL is more restrictive is by design. The barnacles I am thinking of are: Yeah fair enough, I think the section 15 list should be manageable by ammending the section 15 list from the works you're deriving from. They might be declared wrong, but you have no real way to determine that. The product identity issue was just touched upon well above. I will add though that it is an important clause, because it lets WotC open source the rules framework without also giving away the settings. I can't imagine that a games license which didn't have a clause allowing for that distinction would make it very far.
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Aug 4, 2020 14:37
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Tarnop posted:Monster of the Week would work fine for a Hellboy game It has a playbook that's pretty explicitly Hellboy, even.
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Aug 4, 2020 14:59
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Echophonic posted:Jesus Christ, Werewolf! You don't need 5,000 bits of info on the card. Or a 200 page strategy guide! werewolf strategy: -gently caress you nick -everyone on the couch votes as a block
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Aug 4, 2020 15:36
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My Werewolf strategy is to role play as Warren Zevon songs made flesh.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:40
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The pro-Mafia strategy is going "haha that's crrrrazy" whenever someone accuses you of being non-Town. Also playing Mafia online and having a 'meta' alignments that players will constantly accuse you of taking. "They only play like this when they are scum" It's just the worst. Gaslight your friends irl, it's funnier seeing their reactions once you successfully hide the while game. Werewolf/Mafia is best at 6-7+ from all the times I've played. Helps you blend into the crowd.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:50
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Mors Rattus posted:My Werewolf strategy is to role play as Warren Zevon songs made flesh. Excitable Boy, I'll Sleep When I'm Dead, or My poo poo's hosed Up?
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Aug 4, 2020 15:53
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The Wanderhome Kickstarter is nearly funded and there are still some Early Bird pledges available, if you want five bucks off what looks to be a gorgeous art-laden book.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:06
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Speaking of gorgeous, Avalon is up https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2012515236/quest-avalon-deluxe Reworked art for Avalon+Coup
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Aug 4, 2020 16:27
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Infinitum posted:Speaking of gorgeous, Avalon is up Yeah, now this I'm into. My copy of Avalon is fuuucked and a fancy new edition for when we can do in-person gaming again will be nice. Wish I liked Coup more than I do. the Brazilian art is really sharp.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:37
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I hope the component quality is better than Avalon's since those tokens fade really drat quickly.
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Aug 4, 2020 17:23
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