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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s a romanticism. An attempt to make or participate in a new story where the previously believed one was broken. Unconnected to any real origin it is thus fundamentally incoherent, and that is an essential characteristic and thus lends itself to revolutionary political romanticism, e.g. fascism. That's an interesting connection to make and I think it's plausible. QAnon rewards believers with feelings of clarity and belonging. A strong and growing sense of righteousness. While you're achieving that state, which is so rare in contemporary western life, questioning it becomes ungracious and just kinda absurd and also risky, subconsciously. (Because QAnon has no anchor and is fundamentally brittle, after all.) Imagine a fellow disciple not being fully supportive- gross, quit that poo poo right now. There is only forward (look ye not even to the side!), and any imperfectly aligned force, even the semblance of such, should be set right or crushed. Both of which are gratifying. This mode of self-operation is consistent with fascism, among other things.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:16
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I mean it's consistent with literally any effective political movement, because that's how you motivate people to challenge the status quo, people need to feel like that to risk themselves by being politically active and particularly by being politically radical.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:19
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There's grace in being able to question oneself and course-correct, and in proceeding while holding uncertainty because you're doing what seems to be best even though you know it might not be. The feeling of righteousness is always a mistake because it's a biological thing not a spiritual thing. If America were emotionally well and properly educated we could understand that and then we could make actually righteous changes to policy while never feeling righteous at all. Mistakes could be forgiven because they were made in good faith, that being part of the social contract. Maybe though you're saying it's consistent empirically and that's probably true.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:12
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I mean I'm not religious so I'm kind of restricted to looking at it from a material angle, so yes I am saying that I think it is a likely material component (I originally wrote "natural material component" but "natural" is an iffy word that carries connotations of objective correctness) of political radicalism. Which is to say that the way you get radical political ideas (or a lot of ideas, for that matter) into people's heads is to tie it to emotional fulfilment. The sense that you understand the world and that this is empowering and that it can give you directions for how to act, that is a set of feelings that come from a lot of places, and I personally would describe them as pretty necessary to motivate any sort of action. Because humans are emotional beings and while mere facts can be useful to help us direct our energies, the motivation to act comes from emotion, from things we viscerally experience, either first or second hand, and from things we incorporate into our concepts of self. And so there is always a conflict between embracing that unification of self, intent, understanding, and action, ideally based on some sufficiently accurate material understanding of the world. And the risk of getting carried away with it as the emotional and unifying components can become disconnected from accurate, or useful, understandings of the world. Attached to a good understanding it can produce people who work to make the world better, attached to a bad understanding of the world it can produce people who make it worse. And while I would generally suggest that good and bad in that instance correlates pretty well with how close your understanding cleaves to like, the actual material reality of the world, I think you can also, to a degree, work backwards as well and reason that if someone is transparently making the world worse it's because they have a lovely understanding of it. I don't think a sense of righteousness is wrong or even avoidable, as long as it's actually well founded. It can be dangerous, sure, but I think if you get rid of it what you actually end up with is just passivity. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 20:23
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OwlFancier posted:I mean it's consistent with literally any effective political movement, because that's how you motivate people to challenge the status quo, people need to feel like that to risk themselves by being politically active and particularly by being politically radical. Effective political movements can also be built on unbroken origin myths rather than romantic ones attempting to replace ones broken by capitalism. Here’s a visual way to think about the difference in broken and unbroken. The images of Jon McNaughton (romantic reconstruction of broken myth) compared to Norman Rockwell (unbroken myth still being participated in) The form is the same, the content isn’t. One is empty, the other has a human content.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:40
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I'm not sure I understand the distinction given that mcnaughton is a human and probably believes what he paints, and so do the people who sincerely like his art in an unironic way. Like, reconstructed meaning is still human meaning, and it's a bit strange to me to suggest that there are good, pure, original meanings and corrupt, broken ones. Bit prelapsarian IMO, which I definitely do not subscribe to. I would characterise capitalism as harmful to the human desire for meaning but not because it breaks old forms of meaning, it has that effect on new ones too, and specifically I think the forms of meaning it creates are materially harmful to people (consumption is expensive and puts the locus of your sense of meaning and self worth outside yourself and makes it contingent upon things that can be very unstable, like your income and the continued availability of your preferred products) and the physical world (consumerism is bad for the environment, etc) but I have no quarrel with forms of meaning that are simply new, or reconstructed. I care a lot more about the effects of them than where they came from.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:54
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure I understand the distinction given that mcnaughton is a human and probably believes what he paints, and so do the people who sincerely like his art in an unironic way. Well there are two ways that think are valid to look at it here. Both of the artists are constructing an image. The stories we tell ourselves about where we come from are constructed similarly. Here we can go two ways: 1. There isn’t ultimately a difference. These are constructed myths that are ideological tools that can be used to influence us or that we can use to influence others. 2. There is a difference. We can see at least by degree, where some of these constructed myths contain the more or less of the truth, the real, or the human. Enter capitalism, liberalism, which breaks these myth constructions, using either the prophetic (stolen from religion) or the rational. In which one of those situations do we have a chance? I’d like to make something clear here, I obviously have a personal preference for 2. But the real answer is that it doesn’t matter. 1 and 2 aren’t really different situations.
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Aug 4, 2020 05:06
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Well there are two ways that think are valid to look at it here. Both of the artists are constructing an image. The stories we tell ourselves about where we come from are constructed similarly. Here we can go two ways: I'm not sure that the explanatory parts of 1 and 2 actually are at odds? As in "These are constructed myths that are ideological tools that can be used to influence us or that we can use to influence others." And "We can see at least by degree, where some of these constructed myths contain the more or less of the truth, the real, or the human." Are not contradictory statements, it is possible for all emotional views of the world to be entirely human constructions and potential tools, and also for some of them to be more accurate and useful than others. And that seems to be kind of at odds with your previous post so I think there is something I am not getting.
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Aug 4, 2020 05:15
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OwlFancier posted:, and also for some of them to be more accurate and useful than others. More or less useful and or accurate is firmly within 1. OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure that the explanatory parts of 1 and 2 actually are at odds? I’m trying to frame it so that is the case, that they are not actually at odds.
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Aug 4, 2020 06:01
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text me a vag pic posted:didn't Q predict the outcome of the midterm elections, but was wildly off and no one cared? Q has guessed nothing that was right. Literally nothing. If you believe Q, you're at best an idiot, at worst a cult member. I'm not trying to be a dick, but this poo poo is loving stupid and BLATANTLY fake.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:02
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pop fly to McGillicutty posted:Q has guessed nothing that was right. Literally nothing. If you believe Q, you're at best an idiot, at worst a cult member. I'm not trying to be a dick, but this poo poo is loving stupid and BLATANTLY fake. i was just trying to think of a specific time in which Q mentioned a specific outcome. Everything else is some fortune cookie poo poo.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:21
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text me a vag pic posted:i was just trying to think of a specific time in which Q mentioned a specific outcome. Everything else is some fortune cookie poo poo. I think that Q mentioned the "red wave" once or twice in 2018, but in that obtuse way that doesn't actually come out and say anything concrete.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:31
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Crunch Buttsteak posted:I think that Q mentioned the "red wave" once or twice in 2018, but in that obtuse way that doesn't actually come out and say anything concrete. Here’s a list of Q posts by someone risking his mental health by following the cult: https://mobile.twitter.com/PokerPolitics/status/1135811817073270785
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Aug 4, 2020 17:25
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pop fly to McGillicutty posted:Q has guessed nothing that was right. Literally nothing. If you believe Q, you're at best an idiot, at worst a cult member. I'm not trying to be a dick, but this poo poo is loving stupid and BLATANTLY fake. That's the trick of hucksters of all stripes (i.e. Q, psychics, astrologers) -- if you say enough things and you make the things you're saying vague enough, the overly credulous will take something that actually did happen and take that as proof of the vague prediction. It's not stupidity, it's just poorly developed critical thinking and analytical skills. Smart people get taken in by it all the time.
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Aug 4, 2020 17:28
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I'm kind of eager to see how the Q crowd will interpret Trump pronouncing Yosemite as "Yo semites" twice today.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:29
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:That's the trick of hucksters of all stripes (i.e. Q, psychics, astrologers) -- if you say enough things and you make the things you're saying vague enough, the overly credulous will take something that actually did happen and take that as proof of the vague prediction. It's not stupidity, it's just poorly developed critical thinking and analytical skills. Smart people get taken in by it all the time. Modest Mouse has a great lyric "Good ol Nostradamus, he knew the whole drat time There'd always be an East from West And someone in there fighting" Like he wasn't magic, he saw the world for what it was and made an educated guess but people think he's prescient. Same thing.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:44
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IPlayVideoGames posted:Here’s a list of Q posts by someone risking his mental health by following the cult: What's with the Shirley Manson stuff?
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Aug 4, 2020 19:26
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TKIY posted:What's with the Shirley Manson stuff? That guy really likes Garbage, I guess
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Aug 4, 2020 19:54
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TKIY posted:What's with the Shirley Manson stuff? Bartcop was a popular blog in the ‘00s and the webmaster was a big fan of Manson. I thought he died though so I’m not sure what the connection is here.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:02
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Blue Moonlight posted:
I know that Furries and Juggalos are our comrades now but I still struggle with that fact.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:49
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CopywrightMMXI posted:Bartcop was a popular blog in the ‘00s and the webmaster was a big fan of Manson. I thought he died though so I’m not sure what the connection is here. Bartcop as Q confirmed. He faked his death to remove himself from suspicion. Someone get JFKjr on the line, he should know about this.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:54
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Incelshok Na posted:I know that Furries and Juggalos are our comrades now but I still struggle with that fact. We were taught to alienate the weird, claiming that only we were the correct kind of weird, and that's why they exist. We shouldn't be surprised when it turns out most of them are good, well-meaning folk. The username combo, despite the hate and loneliness filled community that incels are, makes me think othering is kinda your thing. In honesty, I was anti furry for a good while...maybe because it was a meme before memes...but I regret it.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:28
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Glory to Italia!
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There's some structural issues with a lot of prominent furry communities but them being genuinely hosed up is part of the reason for their prominence and certainly social isolation has never made predatory behaviour and structural rot worse in any other situation.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:40
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johnny dappertweed posted:Can you talk more about this or maybe give some pointers/keywords? If you mean Russia, then I don't really have a source for that stuff, just what my parents told me about their experiences. The country went through an almost total societal and economic collapse and due to the state keeping close tabs on churches during Soviet times there wasn't much experience with religion or religious movements. It was pretty much the perfect breeding ground for cults. A friend of my father who used to be a reasonable and normal family person with a doctorate in sciences started getting into increasingly weird poo poo ranging from pyramid schemes to wearing homemade pyramid hats and trying to collect pyramid energy from the moon at night in an open field. There were faith healers and fortune tellers with huge national followings. Shamanism made a come back. Christian cults and communes appeared, the most famous of which is probably the guy who claims to be Jesus Christ and collected a couple thousand people in his Siberian commune https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vissarion
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Aug 4, 2020 23:27
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Asking the room, would it be unethical to start up a scam Kickstarter to extract money from Qanon idiots to crowdfund sunglasses for the mole children that were rescued from Killary's Comet Pizza basement torture chamber?
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Aug 5, 2020 03:15
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Mad Hamish posted:Asking the room, would it be unethical to start up a scam Kickstarter to extract money from Qanon idiots to crowdfund sunglasses for the mole children that were rescued from Killary's Comet Pizza basement torture chamber? If you give the money to a child rescue organisation then of course not, absolutely. If you don't, then still probably not, no.
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Aug 5, 2020 03:30
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Mad Hamish posted:Asking the room, would it be unethical to start up a scam Kickstarter to extract money from Qanon idiots to crowdfund sunglasses for the mole children that were rescued from Killary's Comet Pizza basement torture chamber? Totally ethical. I wanted to start a Go Fund Me to rip off flat earthers to fund an expedition to “find the edge”. Naturally I’d use the money to travel the world. Nope, the edge isn’t in Tahiti. Off to the next location.
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Aug 5, 2020 03:34
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Who among hasn't considered getting on the Q grift train? You want to do Indiegogo though because they have no standards. The only issue is that they're all unhinged and a Qanon followers have committed acts of violence, including attacking the Canadian PM. mds2 posted:Totally ethical. I feel like flat Earthers tend to not to have too much money due to being unemployable and often banned from coming within a certain distance of school districts. Not even for being sex offenders half the time either, just harassing children to read their lovely pamphlets.
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Aug 5, 2020 03:46
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These people suck but they are victims.
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Aug 5, 2020 03:47
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Get them banned from their service providers so they can’t keep poisoning themselves, then do the same for the rest of us
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Aug 5, 2020 03:57
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Who among hasn't considered getting on the Q grift train? You want to do Indiegogo though because they have no standards. The continued inexplicable existence of Dear Richard’s Patreon suggests that’s the platform to run with.
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Aug 5, 2020 04:40
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Blue Moonlight posted:The continued inexplicable existence of Dear Richard’s Patreon suggests that’s the platform to run with. It’s all just goons who died at home without families, their bank accounts remaining active via $single 1.00 monthly donations.
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Aug 5, 2020 05:14
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Wait wait wait wait. Hackenwrench? I thought it was just Hackwrench. Am I getting Berenstenn'd?
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Aug 5, 2020 05:18
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I'm not trying to shame or denigrate any person here, but me personally, I can't morally justify grifting someone, even if I think they might 'deserve' it. It's not like I'm some paragon of virtue or I never lied or anything. It's just if I think about doing something like that, whatever it is in my brain just rejects it, like if I were to drink sour milk or something.
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Aug 5, 2020 05:25
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ashpanash posted:I'm not trying to shame or denigrate any person here, but me personally, I can't morally justify grifting someone, even if I think they might 'deserve' it. I mean, q people are paying you for the service of feeling like they're playing along with their favorite fantasy drama. They don't care what happens to the money any more than they care about the reality of the tunnel tots or the executed clones. It's not like that money is going to end up in the hands of the kids or grandkids who haven't visited or called in the last five years.
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Aug 5, 2020 05:32
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:It’s all just goons who died at home without families, their bank accounts remaining active via $single 1.00 monthly donations. Leave it to Lowtax to take their  even in death.Alien Arcana posted:Wait wait wait wait. I don’t know that it’s a good thing you’re so familiar with this obscure bit of trivia from a 90s cartoon, but according to this Wiki that includes an entire loving page devoted to fanfic explorations of her love life, you’re correct! Congratulations!
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Aug 5, 2020 05:33
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I mean, q people are paying you for the service of feeling like they're playing along with their favorite fantasy drama. They don't care what happens to the money any more than they care about the reality of the tunnel tots or the executed clones. Yeah, I know. It's not even that I've been scammed like that (as far as I know, I haven't.) I just...can't. I remember vividly when my friend suggested we join up with a service called "eternal earthbound pets" that charged evangelical nutters a monthly fee to assure them that, as atheists, we would take care of their pets after they got raptured. I mean, I laughed. But he was serious about doing it, and I couldn't bring myself to do it. It just felt wrong to take advantage of someone like that. I dunno.
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Aug 5, 2020 05:40
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Blue Moonlight posted:I don’t know that it’s a good thing you’re so familiar with this obscure bit of trivia from a 90s cartoon, but according to this Wiki that includes an entire loving page devoted to fanfic explorations of her love life, you’re correct! Congratulations! ...well when you put it that way, maybe it would've been better if I'd been wrong. Alien Arcana fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Aug 5, 2020 |
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Aug 5, 2020 06:17
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mds2 posted:Totally ethical. There's definitely room. If you believe his PR manager's statements then Mike Hughes never believed any of the Flat Earth stuff that he used to fundraise his rockets that were supposed to prove that the Earth was flat. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/otilliasteadman/mad-mike-hughes-rocket-death-flat-earth PR Guy posted:On Saturday, a public relations representative disputed Hughes' flat Earth beliefs, telling BuzzFeed News that the argument had helped him raise money but that he didn't actually believe it. Now it didn't work out too well for him, but before the fatal crash he'd managed to fund a few rockets and he used the attention to get on a Science Channel show about "Homemade Astronauts." But yeah, pesky ethics and morals really hurt my ability to get in on the easy money.
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Aug 5, 2020 07:26
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A new conspiracy rises! The Trust! Seems like a new version of the "Marine Law/Fringed Flag" stuff. https://twitter.com/janiszewski_q/status/1289163066173722624?s=20 (I don't know what's with writing out posts and highlighting the words you like. Seems new but who knows.)
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Aug 5, 2020 09:34
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