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Sachant posted:I'm just looking here at the last stream they did (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkwaYLOuw2s&t=4020s) and how unbelievably gaudy and tasteless some of them look. They look like happy meal toys. You're right about mismatched theme though. The entire game looks like they have four different art directors that have never even exchanged a word with one another. Getting strong Dark and Light vibes from that video. Not the new one, the 2006 one.
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Aug 8, 2020 12:43
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orcane posted:MMO/social interaction doesn't mean you have to "interact" with others every single second you're online, you get plenty of socializing in content where you actually have to do more than go from A to B. The problem there is when you finally come to something where you need social interaction to complete something, you don't have any preexisting contacts that you've made from bumping into people previously beforehand. This then makes the parts of the game that mandate social interaction more imposing for a lot of players because now I have to start rounding up some players to be able to run this dungeon and aww gently caress it it'd be faster to just keep grinding alone. Community and social ties are massive draws that keep people coming back to your game even in situations where the rest of your game might be kind of trash, and any sensible designer is going to structure a game to encourage and reinforce that as much as possible. orcane posted:Flying mounts are a solved problem if you want to solve it - you can simply lock them out in content where you don't want them, like raids/dungeons or even PvP areas (lore friendly excuse possible but not required), you can limit them in creative ways (eg. in Guild Wars 2 the ability of flying mounts to gain altitude at will is limited so the designers can simply create a landscape where you can't get enough momentum/height to cross certain elevations and have to take ground paths), if you want to be super elaborate you can even make them an integral part of the game if you want to bother with mounted combat somehow. Flying mounts being fine as long as you ground them most of the time is kind of telling that they're not the greatest idea. 'Mounts that fly' as a concept isn't fundamentally terrible, but they're usually associated with increased player isolation which is generally a detriment to player experience. Warframe doesn't have anything resembling flying mounts, but runs into the same sort of problems whenever the devs add game modes that further split up the player population and leave a lot of the game feeling vacant and dead. I haven't played EVE in years, but the hi-sec experience had the same thing going on too; space is huge, empty, and three-dimensional, so the only time you're ever going to run into someone is by intentionally scanning them down to steal their mission salvage or whatever.
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Aug 9, 2020 01:48
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Vanguard Warden posted:Community and social ties are massive draws that keep people coming back to your game even in situations where the rest of your game might be kind of trash, and any sensible designer is going to structure a game to encourage and reinforce that as much as possible. I agree that this used to be the case. The counterpoint is that both players and the context games are happening in make this type of design much less palatable. 1. Online communication was much less ubiquitous and games like WoW doubled as a sort of 3D chat room where you could hang out with friends. This is no longer the case. 2. Mechanics and systems that rely on having friends to accomplish things are great, and my best memories from gaming are in those contexts. But the double edged sword is that it empowers toxic community elements like gate keeping and elitism, made worse by the advent of streamers and min-maxing. 3. Nobody has the time. There’s a lot more competing for our attention these days, and social groups in particular require persistent maintenance. This is why solo progression is nice, because you don’t build obligations or commitments. Apart from a relatively small, and I’d wager fairly homogenous group of folks, most people just don’t have the time or inclination to dedicate towards living a sort of second life inside one particular video game. AoC, as it stands, looks to cater towards that small minority, blocking off features that will take substantial amounts of development work behind a wall of elitism in order to preserve exclusivity and ‘community’ at the expense of inclusivity and diversity (of both people and play styles).
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Aug 9, 2020 04:13
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I mean I've always soloed through a lot of most MMOs anyway, I was specifically talking about the issues related to flying mounts when it comes to just running into people spontaneously within the open world rather than the "40-man 5-hour raids twice a week" thing. I've honestly never enjoyed raids in MMOs myself, 5-man or whatever dungeons are neat but anything beyond that just feels like tedious cat-herding. 
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Aug 9, 2020 04:56
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a neurotic ai posted:I agree that this used to be the case. The counterpoint is that both players and the context games are happening in make this type of design much less palatable. It's less palatable to you because you're a boomer with a full time job now. People had full time jobs in 2002 and they have them now. You aren't the audience anymore. Something new isn't bad because it doesn't cater to your needs, it's bad if it genuinely is bad design. And to answer your horrible awfully thought out points: 1. You're right. Discord exists now and guess what, now more than ever can poo poo like Dungeon Finder be thrown into the trash. 2. I genuinely want you to name a game that died because of it's toxic community. I can't think of a single one. Dota2? Thriving. CSGO? League of Legends? WoW Classic?. Who loving cares. Toxicity makes the narrative of EvE Online fun. I can't even imagine how boring that game would be if people weren't toxic in it. 3. You don't have the time because you're a boomer. Go play WoW. Stop posting here just because you're not interested in playing an MMO that doesn't hand you poo poo for free. It's fine to have different things you like, but you're literally making GBS threads on stuff that isn't even made for you.
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Aug 9, 2020 06:25
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hobocrunch posted:
As a non-WoW player that never played WoW at peak, and having freshly tried classic+retail, holy poo poo do I need dungeon finder. It's miserable when nobody is around at all for lower level content that everyone's beaten and spamming chat begging for a healer for your lovely cavern for hours and by the time you find a healer it's past the tank's bedtime and they leave. It isn't even a time thing, I spent 12 hours on classic in a day, it was just painfully awful to experience.
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Aug 9, 2020 06:39
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Biowarfare posted:As a non-WoW player that never played WoW at peak, and having freshly tried classic+retail, holy poo poo do I need dungeon finder. It's miserable when nobody is around at all for lower level content that everyone's beaten and spamming chat begging for a healer for your lovely cavern for hours and by the time you find a healer it's past the tank's bedtime and they leave. It isn't even a time thing, I spent 12 hours on classic in a day, it was just painfully awful to experience. I don't want to get into a huge argument about WoW but WoW is an entirely different game, the game is almost designed around dungeon finder at this point. The reason it's so hard to find friends is because of poo poo like flying mounts, because there's nothing to do in the world (Just world quests every day), because questing (At least at the release of BFA) was over in 2-3 days, because everything is instanced or phased, because guilds are pointless now (outside of hardcore raiding), because all the content is so easy (elites removed from the world) because crafting is completely gutted and there's no need to trade with people anymore, etc, etc, etc. Is systemically ingrained in WoW's design and playerbase at this point. It doesn't actually need to be this way. Should feel natural to find friends in an MMO, which is literally why people are so against flying mounts and all these systems. Its so forced and it's not a community anymore. And I'm not really trying to poo poo on WoW, If that's what you want, if that's genuinely what you want, like literally no interaction with other players, you've got your small handful of friends that you play with then great, that's honestly fine. But why are you making GBS threads on this game that's trying to break away from the horrible design choices over the last 13ish years. You come here being like "WoW sucks and I want change, but this game is nothing like WoW what the gently caress" ? hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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Aug 9, 2020 07:03
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hobocrunch posted:
poo poo like dungeon finder justifies development effort in other features. quote:2. I genuinely want you to name a game that died because of it's toxic community. I can't think of a single one. Dota2? Thriving. CSGO? League of Legends? WoW Classic?. Who loving cares. Toxicity makes the narrative of EvE Online fun. I can't even imagine how boring that game would be if people weren't toxic in it. I think you misapprehend me. I’m not suggesting the game will die because it’s toxic, I’m suggesting the game will be less inclusive and diverse. Social toxicity (as opposed to things like PK mechanics) is what shuts out other groups from participating in the content. EvE is great because there isn’t actually that much gate keeping. Players who don’t play that often can still gain power and compete with the big boys. In terms of actual social toxicity, EvE is much better than say, classic wow. quote:3. You don't have the time because you're a boomer. Go play WoW. Stop posting here just because you're not interested in playing an MMO that doesn't hand you poo poo for free. It's fine to have different things you like, but you're literally making GBS threads on stuff that isn't even made for you. FYI I’m in my early 20s and still play games, but don’t let that interrupt your particular fixation with advocating for certain types of game design as some sort of moral failing. I came into this thread querying whether some of the mechanics the devs are describing are even actually fun, as opposed to just sounding cool. That seems to be something others here share, so it is a valid discussion point? I am curious about who you think this game is ‘for’. What are this groups characteristics? How does one select themselves into this group?
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Aug 9, 2020 13:48
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Vanguard Warden posted:Flying mounts being fine as long as you ground them most of the time is kind of telling that they're not the greatest idea. 'Mounts that fly' as a concept isn't fundamentally terrible, but they're usually associated with increased player isolation which is generally a detriment to player experience. Warframe doesn't have anything resembling flying mounts, but runs into the same sort of problems whenever the devs add game modes that further split up the player population and leave a lot of the game feeling vacant and dead. I haven't played EVE in years, but the hi-sec experience had the same thing going on too; space is huge, empty, and three-dimensional, so the only time you're ever going to run into someone is by intentionally scanning them down to steal their mission salvage or whatever. If you give people a reason to stay outside of instances, they will meet outside of instances. It doesn't have to be "randomly met stranger while I traveled from A to B". orcane fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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Aug 9, 2020 14:36
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I feel like the assumption that AoC's flying mounts will suffer from the same problems that WoW's flying mounts do is pretty unjustified. The games have completely different core concepts and the flying mounts are implemented very differently. AoC isn't going to have flying mounts like WoW does. To what degree will the world be "designed around flying mounts" if only 10 people are going to have the things at a time? Also flying mounts are time limited and die after X days. The game will be designed around the assumption that the average player does not, and will never, have a flying mount. I'm not worried.
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Aug 9, 2020 21:02
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orcane posted:That doesn't have anything to do with them not being "the greatest idea" and everything with limiting them to what you want them to be - travel items (if you want them off the ground more often you're probably making a game with aerial combat or where they're part of the toolset for vertical exploration). And there's nothing wrong if games add them as means of transportation because in those games ~player isolation~ is a thing they address by having hubs or public events or whatever (E: and yes, dungeon finders), not by making the act of going somewhere as annoying or as tedious as possible - because it's not 1990 anymore and we're not grouping up to move through dangerous territory to set up our next 12 hour farming session (I realize a lot of old school MMO players have a super hard time letting go of the past and will never accept this, though). I mean when we all talk about "flying mounts" we're talking about full three-dimensional freedom of movement in general exploration and movement, typically because of experiences with WoW and because that's what they seem to be in the game this thread is about. If you make them gliding mounts or just really fast ground mounts then they're not really 'flying' mounts anymore and it's not really the same subject. Even if you choose to be dismissively flippant about ~*~player isolation~*~, there's a reason developers make you walk from point A to point B beyond some irrational desire to annoy their players. If you could teleport from the entrance of a theme park to the roller coaster, you wouldn't have to walk past the other rides or merch booths on the way there. MMOs are a big box of disparate activities often covered in shiny scenery, and you always need to find ways to introduce your players to new stuff to keep them from ultimately burning out. For a lot of games, this already is the way to keep players engaged outside of instances, so I don't see why it's a better idea to come up with something else entirely for that and cut down travel like crazy. It works out fine in Warframe, sure, but that's not an open-world game. I get that there are a lot of people who get super reactionary about modern WoW or whatever to the point where they start calling for all addons to be banned or something, but veering towards the territory of "nobody had fun playing MMOs in the early aughts, please ignore the launch of classic WoW or all the old MMOs that are getting new unofficial servers that people are flocking to like City of Heroes" seems equally silly.
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Aug 9, 2020 23:19
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Why are people taking this thing seriously?
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Aug 9, 2020 23:49
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Jackard posted:Why are people taking this thing seriously? some rich guy is financing it by himself and he recently did interviews with some big name streamers to spread the game further
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Aug 9, 2020 23:56
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People shitbashing Dugneon Finder while advocating for the presence of a casual playerbase in this game fundamentally misunderstand what casual players actually want in a game (or don't actually care, because rather than viewing casuals as a different segment of players with their own valid wants and desires they view them as a necessary evil NPCs for them, "the hardcore gamerz", the real protagonists to lord over). Which ironically enough is exactly the kind of player this game is made to appeal too, and is also exactly why none of the design decisions will actually ever attract a casual player base.
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Aug 10, 2020 00:24
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Jackard posted:Why are people taking this thing seriously?
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Aug 10, 2020 00:39
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Because all indicators point to it actually being made as opposed to basically every other Kickstarter MMO that is just in a perpetual state of alpha for 5+ years.
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Aug 10, 2020 00:42
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^^not directed at you SweetBro Welcome to MMO HMO. You may be new here. Most MMOs in “development” now will never release. This game will release, so we are talking about it in the sub forum about MMOs. Hth
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Aug 10, 2020 01:07
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SweetBro posted:People shitbashing Dugneon Finder while advocating for the presence of a casual playerbase in this game fundamentally misunderstand what casual players actually want in a game (or don't actually care, because rather than viewing casuals as a different segment of players with their own valid wants and desires they view them as a necessary evil NPCs for them, "the hardcore gamerz", the real protagonists to lord over). Which ironically enough is exactly the kind of player this game is made to appeal too, and is also exactly why none of the design decisions will actually ever attract a casual player base. It truly hurts my brain when folks bash Dungeon Finder. It was the peak of social interaction spamming general chat in whatever major hub for 30 minutes to make a group for a dungeon that takes the same amount of time to clear.
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Aug 10, 2020 06:31
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I dont think anyone is claiming that forming groups prior to LFR was a particularly good or interesting series of social interactions. Its the dynamics of the group once you get into the instance that was changed pretty drastically by LFR. Prior to LFR people in the group had invested the time to get into a group, run over to the dungeon and whatever other organization was required before they even set foot in the instances. This provided at least some incentive to not bail the moment things went wrong. To do stuff like coordinating crowd control, explaining to newbies how mechanics worked, etc etc. Now with LFR the amount of organization/time required to get into an instance is so low that people would rather bail than explain boss mechanics, or even worse mark mobs for CC if the group is struggling. I think anyone who has played WoW over the last few years has experienced the super weird feeling of running instances via LFG where it seems like you are playing with bots. No one talks, the expectation is that everyone already knows the instance without actually communicating that, and if theres a wipe people bail without so much as a word being spoken. Its weird, not very challenging and also not very fun. Its a drastically different experience than what came before.
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Aug 10, 2020 07:45
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Honestly the biggest thing to social interaction with strangers for me is frictionless meetups with some downtime. Public events in most games or fates are where I'll see a player, maybe chat cause it's not super high impact, and remember them if we meet again. I remember in GW2 or FFXIV noting players when we did multiple fates/public events together
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Aug 10, 2020 08:12
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^ I was totally typing up something similar as Dapper's post dropped but yeah, my experiences have been similar. Any dungeon run or other game mode that effectively becomes a matchmaking queue becomes really low-investment and everybody's level of patience drops. If you tell people you're new up front and don't know the ropes, they drop and re-queue. It's also kind of disingenuous to compare ideal conditions for dungeon finder with 30 minutes of spamming LFG without it. My best experiences without dungeon finder have been doing the Westfall quest lines leading to the Deadmines which culminates in the zone-wide group event for the Defias Messenger directly outside of the instance, then immediately grouping up with the people who gathered for it and running the dungeon right then. My worst experiences with dungeon finder have been waiting for nearly half an hour for a group to finally pop for Scarlet Monastery, being teleported across the map to the instance when it did form, and then having two of the people immediately drop out so I was stranded in a hostile faction zone.
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Aug 10, 2020 08:16
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A big component of the group finder problem is cross realm play. Being put in a random group wouldn't be so bad maybe if the people were at least people you might see again, but with cross realm as soon as the group is done those people are gone forever, you'll never meet them in the open world.
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Aug 10, 2020 08:24
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frajaq posted:some rich guy is financing it by himself and he recently did interviews with some big name streamers to spread the game further he is the rich guy behind that lowtax Xango mango-steen energy drink mlm scam, thats how he got rich. https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/68tk1l/why_the_ashes_of_creation_referral_program_is_not/dh1912j/ but yeah this is bit too obvious to even warn about. I do think it the game will come out which is surprising.
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Aug 10, 2020 08:49
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I think group finder is very good in the games it's currently in, there's no real way to naturally get a group smoothly for weeklies or dailies without spamming a channel. I do think there is a game design where dungeon groups could form more naturally. Imagine one where you unlocked the dungeon doing some public event or whatever, so naturally people would group there (lik the defians messenger example above) and then group together to go in. That's... a lot of design work ensuring players are encouraged to come do the thing though. You would need to constantly push players out to do things to meet people, which I think is an interesting design but it's a hard one, and one that is likely to be circumvented if possible (for efficiency) Stormgale fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 08:58
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I mean, this game doesn’t seem like it wants to have much in the way of instanced content so the group finder thing is kinda moot. I think that could be cool, just not sure how it’s going to work. I liked the world bosses in guild wars 2.
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Aug 10, 2020 10:43
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Common complaints about dungeon finder are less of a dungeon finder issue and mostly an adage of the usual: "Given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of anything." Even though SWTOR had a dungeon finder on release, the instances experience was far better than even pre-dungeon finder WoW, since there was no wiki to guide people through the dungeon, we bashed our heads and worked together to figure out dungeon mechanics even if it meant wiping on the same boss for hours on end. I suspect that even if modern games were to remove features like dungeon finder, the sterility of PUGs wouldn't change. The only thing that would change is that most people would stop running low-level dungeons with PUGs, and that at higher levels you'll just be thrown a link to the wiki and be told to read-it before being booted from the group, since by that point you're invested enough in the game that you're expected to at least skim a guide. You know, like how it was with WoW right before the DF got introduced. Which mind you, WoW was still the best case environment for a DF free world due to its massive player count. Pretty much any other game had introduced solo mode for lower level dungeons since it was basically impossible to find a group for them. You find people with this unforgiving "you should already know what you're supposed to be doing even if its your first time" attitude in basically every multiplayer game (especially the competitive ones) with their so 'helpful advice' being "go read a guide" or "go watch a youtube video". DF is just accelerated the poo poo that was happening in MMO communities, but it also brought a lot upsides. Primarily being able to engage people who would normally not even bother doing dungeons because they found the prospect of finding a party too tedious and/or were not interested in the rewards from said dungeons by removing that barrier to entry.
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Aug 10, 2020 10:58
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WoW also put the guide in game. You can bring up the dungeon journal and it'll give you a helpful little blurb based on your role as to what you need to watch out for on the boss. Oh, you've never tanked this boss before? Kite the guy through fire and then under the hammers to break his armor. DPS? Be sure that you all group up for his big slam attack because it divides the damage by the number of players it hits so your tank doesn't get one shot. It lets them put fights that aren't completely braindead tank and spank fights into non-raid encounters without expecting you to go watch a youtube walkthrough.
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Aug 10, 2020 15:16
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Dark Off posted:he is the rich guy behind that lowtax Xango mango-steen energy drink mlm scam, thats how he got rich.
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Aug 10, 2020 17:01
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Sachant posted:Did I mention this game was skeevy as all hell? Also listening to interviews with devs talking about him it sounds like some cult following. I feel that all the studios with large figureheads resemble that like Blizzard with Metzen. Also EU publisher didn’t allow that disgusting referral program (which is my.com making this even funnier).
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Aug 11, 2020 05:12
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Hy_C posted:I feel that all the studios with large figureheads resemble that like Blizzard with Metzen. My.com is Russian right?
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Aug 11, 2020 06:32
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SweetBro posted:My.com is Russian right? Yes
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Aug 11, 2020 13:17
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I can’t believe an MMO is engaging in predatory tactics!!!
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Aug 11, 2020 13:22
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Vincent Valentine posted:
the most casual people i know in ffxiv are in it for fashion and housing. sure you cant beat the raid on its hardest mode but guess what theres an easy mode with almost identical looks and if you prefer the dye scheme of the hard mode one you can do that poo poo when its made easier by the buff added in the next patch when its no longer new content. you can also get more decorations and people change the house based on seasons. ffxiv is such a great game at getting you to log in once or twice a week to get you to work towards your next goal. i seriously played for an entire month doing nothing but loving around breeding my race chocobo which is literally nothing but a mini game used to farm a currency i had already maxed out because i wanted a max stat pink one. casual players keep games going but so do hard core ones you need to engage them both and the only game ive seen do it really well is ffxiv. wow does it pretty well to but its lopsided to hell with the hardcore being alot bigger then the casual crowd. not that im one to talk i went back to everquest for the 10th time and is why im lurking this thread i was actually really excited for everquest next because all of the non voxel stuff sounded cool. I want to see this game do well snergle fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 20:19
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SweetBro posted:If you think this game is going to attract a casual audience, you're pretty delusional. The population is going to be largely be sperglords who have too much time on their hands, with a rotating 30% population of core players who just wanna try something different before eventually moving onto something else. The game will allow random PvP but the consequence for some guy killing your PvE character for fun are pretty severe, including being flagged as a bad guy, having their skills reduced and having their corpse drop items if they die. The idea is that PvP generally involves guild wars, node wars (eg city vs city) and battles for castles, much of which you can avoid. I guess if the neighbouring city decides to go to war with yours then you might be a potential target. But even though the entire map is a PvP area it doesn't mean you're always in danger of being attacked.
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Aug 24, 2020 23:25
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And I'm sure like every other MMO that came before and tried this, there will be a lot "punished" sperglord alts around.
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Aug 25, 2020 05:57
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Came across this video today and am now hyped for the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s82xJnx1EY Looks like the anti-thesis for Final Fantasy XIV (a game I adore). Would love to try it out and see if it provides a great contrast experience.
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Aug 25, 2020 07:21
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Where does Ashes of Creation stand right now in development?
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Aug 25, 2020 17:15
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It was at "Never going to be released", but they've put in a lot of time and effort and progressed to "Never going to be released".
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Aug 26, 2020 02:48
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Wasn't there supposed to be a no-NDA alpha in August? Or was that just "Fall 2020".
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Aug 26, 2020 17:06
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Cardboard Fox posted:Wasn't there supposed to be a no-NDA alpha in August? Or was that just "Fall 2020". Not sure but we'll probably hear about it tomorrow- https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46119/next-live-stream-q-a-submission-friday-august-28-2020-at-11am-pdt/p1
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Aug 28, 2020 01:09
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