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Elysium posted:Ok, I'm finally calling this thing done. 90% of the work took place over about 2 weekends, the other 10% over ~6 months... I would drink at this bar, what a solid build!
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Aug 11, 2020 02:45
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Just bought a house that has an attached carport that I want to get enclosed to use for my shop. Wanted to see what advice you all might have to make sure I get this done right the first time. We were renting before and fortunately had a detached garage so I used that but never put any work into accumulating bigger tools, a good dust collection system, or really setting up a permanent shop space. This is a 10'x20' space so not huge but should be able to make it work just fine. I'll actually be able to finally get a table saw, planer and jointer where before I didn't really want to deal with moving it until we had our own place, so I'm excited to be able to finally tackle more projects that I've kind of delayed until I could get to this point. Things I've considered: Electric subpanel: We actually had a good electrician at the house recently because we needed a 4 wire outlet for our stove, so he had to run a new wire from the kitchen to the panel. I asked him about running a subpanel and he said it shouldn't be a problem, and can easily access the main panel from the carport area where I could put the subpanel using the space the stove wire ran. My electric knowledge is almost zilch, so here's where I could use some help. I want to get the 3HP sawstop and be able to run it plus dust collection and planer plus dust collection, plus lights and likely music and/or TV, so what do I need to supply enough juice for everything? Outlet spacing: A shop of this size I'm sure outlets every 6 feet would be adequate, but could also go 4 feet. Is ideal height for all outlets just above bench/counter height? I also will need some 220V outlets, primarily for the Sawstop. I've read about retractable ceiling outlets that you can use for this kind of thing, since a table saw is going to be in the middle of the shop, that way you don't have a cord running along the floor, but wouldn't a ceiling outlet also obstruct your outfeed or get in the way somewhere else? Any optimal solutions for this? Dust Collection: Any special considerations for dust collection? I haven't researched it as much previously since I would just hook up a shop vac to whatever I was using but will need a proper system in place. now Any space saving tips or need to think about ductwork etc in this build process, or is that all something I'll just install after the fact? Lighting: I'm thinking 4 or 6 LED shop lights on the ceiling. Is that enough for this space? Any other lighting locations? My old garage had a single LED strip above the door as well Seems like with lighting more is better, so would like to get whatever is ideal for a 10x20 space. Thanks for any help!
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Aug 11, 2020 04:29
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It's hard to have too much lighting. 4-6 will (IMO, others are more gung-ho about lights) be sufficient for general illumination, though you might also consider where your body will cast a shadow and how that's positioned vis a vis things you need to look at like workpieces or rulers. In other words, consider angles and not just sheer quantity of lumens. Lights are pretty cheap too, and not terribly hard to install, so err on the side of more rather than fewer. If I were going to re-do the lights in my workshop I'd probably try to put more along the perimeter instead of backed off a few feet from the walls like they are now. That'd make it harder for me to shadow my work. The main thing I'd say is to sketch out a layout of the shop, considering your clearances for the different tools. Rearranging a shop is a lot of work, so it's good to have a plan in advance. For electrical load, I'd say 1 circuit for lights, 1 or 2 for 120V outlets (1 should be plenty for your current uses, 2 is to give you some room to grow for unforeseen uses), and 1 for 220V. You're never going to run both the jointer and the saw at the same time, so they can be on the same circuit. The dust collector should be able to run off of 120V. Outlets where you need to plug in and out regularly should be readily-accessible, other outlets for stationary tools/appliances can be more out-of-the-way (you don't want a lot of cables at waist height). Outlets in the ceiling are good for middle-of-the-room tools; just keep them in mind when you're coming up with your shop layout. I'm sure you can find diagrams of the 3HP Sawstop and where its power cable is. You have some leeway for exactly where the cable goes since you can e.g. put a hook in the ceiling to pull the cable out of the way a bit, then run it horizontally to the outlet.
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Aug 11, 2020 05:00
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Figure out what all will run at the same time to determine how many circuits you need. For example a table saw and dust collector should be on separate circuits. If you're like me you won't be running everything at once but things like air clearer, dust collector, air compressor, tool could all be running. I have been running everything off 1 outlet and the dust collector on an extension cord to an outside outlet. Last week I had my electrical box brought up to code and lines run to my garage/shop. I asked about a sub panel and they just said it'd cost more and with a 32/64 breaker box I have plenty of room to expand. I ended up having 4 circuits run, 3 120v and 1 240v. My garage is open rafters so I just had them install the 3 outlets on the rafters. The 240v is just capped in the corner for right now. I spent the weekend Daisy chaining 3 single gange outlets to two of the circuits spread out on the walls through out the shop. This gives me a total of 8 new outlets added to the single one that was originally there. The 3rd circuit is dedicated to A/C and air cleaner. The lights and dust collector are on the original outlet that was out there. The 240v will be split to run table saw (currently on 120) and jointer. Again I will never be running both at same time so no worry splitting it. For dust collection, figure where your tools will go then map out the runs. Pick a spot out of the way but still easily accessible to empty it. Harbor freight 2hp collector works great. Unless you plan to run with all gates open it is plenty. You can always upgrade to a 2 stage collector later too. I ran my dust collection 4" PVC up above the rafters and have drops down along walls and in the center to the right of my table saw. The power for table saw is dropped along with it. I have a 2.5" line branched off that drop for hand tools on the outfeed/work table which is nice. It is out of the way on the right side but I realized that prevents me from sticking a router in the wing like a lot of people do. Lighting, more is better. Any tool you do a lot over should have one above it IMO. LEDs don't draw a lot of power and are cheap so if I cast a shadow I get a new light. Since you are starting with no walls, insulation. A comfortable shop is a productive shop.
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Aug 11, 2020 05:28
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I hand planed the "core" of the stand and used a router to make the end grain flat, figured I'd stand the anvil on it and see how it fits. Pretty nice fit but I think I will add more on all sides to make it more stable.
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Aug 11, 2020 11:02
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His Divine Shadow posted:I hand planed the "core" of the stand and used a router to make the end grain flat, figured I'd stand the anvil on it and see how it fits. Pretty nice fit but I think I will add more on all sides to make it more stable. This pic makes me very uncomfortable. That anvil looks like its going to tip over and crush someones foot if I bump into it.
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Aug 11, 2020 12:27
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It's actually surprisingly stable, most of the weight distribution is in the center of the column. But like I said, not yet complete.
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Aug 11, 2020 12:36
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Please don't put stationary tools in the middle of a 10' wide space. For a 20'x8-12' shop aligning everything around the edges works much more efficiently imo. Even if you have a table saw, the right side past the fence can be up against a wall.
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Aug 11, 2020 14:23
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I’m no anvil expert but that seems way too tall? Maybe it’s just an optical illusion...
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Aug 11, 2020 14:33
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I'd hazard a guess that with anvils you want the workpiece to be roughly stomach height? You have one arm, bent, holding the piece, and the other arm hammering. Woodworking benches are comparatively low because you put your body weight into hand planing and sawing, with a piece that's clamped down. And yeah, I'd expect that block to be pretty dang stable. The more weight on the block, the harder it'll be to tip over, and anvils aren't light.
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Aug 11, 2020 14:39
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nosleep posted:
Get at least two 120V circuits if at all possible, and ideally every other outlet would be on alternate circuits so you don’t have extension chords running all over the place. It’s not hard to start tripping breakers when running shop vac + tool + fan/compressor/whatever, so spreading some of that draw out to two different circuits makes like much easier. For a smaller/narrower space like that, you‘ll probably want to put as much as you can on wheels and have it stored/used around the perimeter like GEMorris said. As others mentioned, multiple sources of light from different angles are much better for shadows than a few very bright sources. If you are going to have windows, put them on the north side if you can-natural light is great and north light is the best. Definitely spend a little time sketching things out. Think about the footprint of the tool, but also think about how much infeed/outfeed space you need while using it (always more than you think). Idk what kind of work you want to do, but bandsaws and working with solid wood are a better fit for small shops than tablesaw and using a lot of sheet goods imo. Maneuvering full sheet goods in small spaces can be pretty frustrating, especially if you only have 8’ ceilings. It’s a good time to think about how you’re going to get things in/out of the shop too. Most hobbyist machines will fit through a 3’ door, but double doors or a garage door will make getting lumber(where/how are you going to store that?) in/out much easier. It’s hard to get a 12’ board around a corner.
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Aug 11, 2020 15:16
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Elysium posted:I’m no anvil expert but that seems way too tall? Maybe it’s just an optical illusion... Knuckle height is the general idea. In the picture it is about it for me (6'2"). People doing blade smithing says they like the anvil higher up even.
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Aug 11, 2020 15:27
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Get at least two 120V circuits if at all possible, and ideally every other outlet would be on alternate circuits so you don’t have extension chords running all over the place. It’s not hard to start tripping breakers when running shop vac + tool + fan/compressor/whatever, so spreading some of that draw out to two different circuits makes like much easier. Would a single 240V (Australian line voltage) 20A circuit be enough for a small-mid sized shop you think? Two 10A sockets
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Aug 11, 2020 16:07
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Depending on climate, opening a door is much less of a burden than moving a machine. What I mean by this is that at first glance putting your machines at the 10' point in a 20' shop seems the most logical option. Which means when you want to process a rip or planing operation on a board longer than 10' you must move your machine. If however you put your machine at the 8' point, biased toward the accessible door. You can process the most common (likely, can vary) 8' length of material without opening the door. You can then increase that to 12' by just opening the door. Only when you get over 12' do you need to actually move a machine. Worth considering, cant always work out, and I'd do this more with the machines that are harder to use. I wouldn't worry about it with easily movable tools like say a lunchbox planer, more with things like table saws, bandsaws, and jointers.
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Aug 11, 2020 16:16
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My 300kg table saw is easily movable and I have moved it a lot. Made a lifting system so I could lift it on casters, best shop decision I ever made.
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Aug 11, 2020 16:20
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GEMorris posted:Please don't put stationary tools in the middle of a 10' wide space. For a 20'x8-12' shop aligning everything around the edges works much more efficiently imo. Even if you have a table saw, the right side past the fence can be up against a wall. Maybe let him figure it out with a movable base? 10' is narrow, but a table saw kind of demands being center. His Divine Shadow posted:My 300kg table saw is easily movable and I have moved it a lot. Made a lifting system so I could lift it on casters, best shop decision I ever made.
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Aug 11, 2020 16:22
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Mr. Mambold posted:Maybe let him figure it out with a movable base? 10' is narrow, but a table saw kind of demands being center. Yeah, ultimately he's going to do whatever he wants. We can either couch our opinions in tons of disclaimers, or assume whatever people say in here is opinion. A space hog like a TS in the dead center of a 10' wide space is going to direct all work and thinking and movement to adapt to the table saw. Having it aligned to the wall doesn't encumber it for uses its well suited to (ripping, joinery cuts) but has the benefit of directing you towards other tools for uses where it isn't well suited (big crosscuts) where a different tool might be more appropriate (like a SCMS). If you ask for advice or share plans in a hobby thread you are going to get a ton of opinion based answers from the community, some of which will be backed up by experience and some of which wont. This is the way it has always been.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:25
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GEMorris posted:Yeah, ultimately he's going to do whatever he wants. We can either couch our opinions in tons of disclaimers, or assume whatever people say in here is opinion. It completely depends on how often you use it. If you use a table saw for the majority of your work then your shop should be centered around it. There is also the idea that even when it is not in use the top and out feed table become a large work top centered in the shop. You build the shop around the most used tool in your shop.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:42
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JEEVES420 posted:You build the shop around the most used tool in your shop. Phew, I managed to put that Bar in the right spot then.
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Aug 11, 2020 21:05
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My lathe arrived a day early today! Woot, all the way from BC. I set it up right away and turned a branch into a lovely wand. This was the first thing I ever tried to turn  . Quite the learning experience, it was both easier and harder than I expected. I should do much better with the next one.   Avada Kadabra! 
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Aug 11, 2020 22:33
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JEEVES420 posted:It completely depends on how often you use it. If you use a table saw for the majority of your work then your shop should be centered around it. There is also the idea that even when it is not in use the top and out feed table become a large work top centered in the shop. Or the context drives the use. You put a tool in the most prominent place if your shop and viola, its the thing you start to default to. When you have a hammer... Etc. Create an environment that encourages the type of work habits and biases you want to have. For me that's centering the workbench and the bandsaw.(figuratively or literally, my space isn't even 10x20 dedicated and by centering I dont mean "in the middle" here) GEMorris fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 22:37
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I'd never thought about it before, but this discussion made me realize that my bandsaw is actually in the exact center of my shop. Pretty sure some ley lines or something cross there, because I don't remember doing that consciously. It's by far the most used machine in the shop with the jointer close behind and planer after that and TS in 4th. Tape measure wins overall though, lol. I couldn't live without any of them-they're all very good at the things they do. I use the runoff table from my TS alot too, and honestly that's probably part of why I don't use the tablesaw as much-I'm a slob and I'd have to clean off the runoff table to use the machine. Rutibex posted:My lathe arrived a day early today! Woot, all the way from BC. I set it up right away and turned a branch into a lovely wand. This was the first thing I ever tried to turn Turning green wood is a bit easier and more forgiving than dry wood and can teach you some bad habits if it's all you do, but go wild and have fun-looks like you're figuring it out. What is that big drum sticking off the tailstock? Almost looks like a motor or something.
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Aug 12, 2020 01:22
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Turning green wood is a bit easier and more forgiving than dry wood and can teach you some bad habits if it's all you do, but go wild and have fun-looks like you're figuring it out. What is that big drum sticking off the tailstock? Almost looks like a motor or something. These branches are old and dead I don't know how green they are. I will eventually try some wood from the hardware store, but for now I have tones of free branches. The drum on the tailstock is just the adjustment knob, for drilling the pokey bit into the wood (please forgive my lack of vocabulary ).I made two more things, another wand and a chess Rook. I'm getting a bit better:  
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Aug 12, 2020 02:48
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That's great! Welcome to the adicting world of wood turning. One thing you'll learn is that the direction of your wood grain will have a major impact on the behavior of what you are turning. Right now you are cutting across the branch and then turning so that you have a sort of radial grain which you turn around. It will behave much difference if your grain moves across your lathe tool instead of along it. Of course you need larger logs to make blanks like that, so the search begins...
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Aug 12, 2020 03:49
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Rutibex posted:My lathe arrived a day early today! Woot, all the way from BC. I set it up right away and turned a branch into a lovely wand. This was the first thing I ever tried to turn drat unboxing and project pics in the same post you're crushing it
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Aug 12, 2020 05:25
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Thanks a bunch for all the feedback. I'll definitely run at least 3 circuits and having outlets on alternating circuits is a good idea. Also will plan on more lights than I think I need, including around the perimeter. When I spoke to the contractor yesterday we talked about some 220V outlets around the perimeter and at least one retractable ceiling outlet if I do decide to go with the table saw in the middle. Right now I'm really just trying to plan light and outlet locations since that's stuff that's not as easy to modify later. As far as shop layout, I will have to sit down with sketch up, another shop planning program or just pencil/paper and map out the space to figure out what kind of layout I want to try and start with and for setting up dust collection. Actually setting up the shop will be a huge work in progress but should be fun as I love shop projects. There will be a garage door in the front and we have a big driveway, so there will be that option to use that extra space for ripping longer stock. I'm going going with the buy once cry once route and going for the professional model Sawstop with a mobile base, so if I need to move it it wouldn't be impossible. Ideally it's just in once place where you need it and always ready to go, but that's just gonna be the limitation in a smaller space. My to do list has both big and small projects so will have to give some thought to where I want place it to start. There are a lot of people out there with smaller shops that come up with good ideas for mobile bases and modular systems so I'll make everything as movable as possible. My biggest challenge will probably be my sliding miter saw. My parents surprised me with a Dewalt compound slider a couple years ago and I've gotten a lot of use out of it, and you could make the argument with a table saw, crosscut sled, and miter jigs etc you don't need one, but it's really handy and would love to keep it. Didn't know about the Bosch type saws that save a ton of space so will have to figure out how to deal with a saw with basically a 3 1/2 foot front to back footprint. I'll be coming back with more questions when it comes to actual layout time, just trying to get the actual electrical and lighting layout planned as much as I can in advance since I'm having it done by a contractor. Can't wait to actually starting posting project questions!
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Aug 12, 2020 12:51
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Rutibex posted:My lathe arrived a day early today! Woot, all the way from BC. I set it up right away and turned a branch into a lovely wand. This was the first thing I ever tried to turn Awesome. I'm very curious about these lathes. I need to upgrade and you cant beat the prices.
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Aug 12, 2020 13:39
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nosleep posted:My biggest challenge will probably be my sliding miter saw. My parents surprised me with a Dewalt compound slider a couple years ago and I've gotten a lot of use out of it, and you could make the argument with a table saw, crosscut sled, and miter jigs etc you don't need one, but it's really handy and would love to keep it. I dont think I would say that personally and absolutely would keep it
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Aug 12, 2020 15:33
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I still keep my scms for house projects even though it no longer has a permanent spot in my shop (i have a track saw cutoff station as I wasn't happy with the crosscut quality from the slider). Absolutely useful tool worth keeping (but articulated or "rails-forward" versions do save a ton of space)
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Aug 12, 2020 17:54
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I have the Makita rails-front slider and honestly unless you're happy having the front hang off you still end up needing nearly 3' of depth. I would plan on 4' for that Dewalt, that's what I figured on when I was considering it, it's not very practical for an against the wall mount. Regarding your electrical. If they recommend putting a circuit breaker for the subpanel for under 100 amps due to your expected load, fine, but tell them to run large enough cable for 100 amps anyways. The cost difference should be negligible since it sounds like this is a short run, vs the labor cost. Similarly, if you're running a dedicated circuit for your dust collector let them know you may want to convert it to 240v in the future. 120v is limiting for a DC but since they're just 3 wire 240v you can convert the circuit over to 240v easily enough, long as your panel has the extra capacity. You may want to consider whether or not you're going to want an air compressor for the shop and how big of one, if you want to use a DA sander or paint gun you can find yourself looking at 240v compressors very quickly. My house has a basement subpanel that by the time I moved in was completely inadequate, arguably for the existing loads and definitely for circuits I needed to add for a few other uses including a woodshop. Unfortunately despite the panel being a 125 amp panel they only ran a 50 amp cable which meant I had to completely replace the run which involved cutting drywall over 2 floors following the entire 30 foot path. Ponying up an extra $100 on a multi-thousand dollar job would've meant I didn't have to spend weeks, including drywall repairs, redoing it.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:42
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GEMorris posted:Yeah, ultimately he's going to do whatever he wants. We can either couch our opinions in tons of disclaimers, or assume whatever people say in here is opinion. I've never doubted your experience, and I appreciated your posts several years ago and stayed out of the pissing matches you got yourself into....but the sanctimonious tone you still take about a thing like a tool arrangement preference is what's irksome. I'd go with Jeeves' opinion that the most used tool takes center stage. If you've got a table saw for boutique reason, don't even. And I suppose hobbyists fall somewhere between green and professional, so there's that.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:46
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I have the Delta Cruzer miter saw and it sits pretty cleanly on a 24" countertop. If I ever need to, for some reason, get a car in that side of my garage, I can tilt it to 60 degrees and it only hangs over the edge of the counter by like 1" or so e: and why the hell do miter saws have laser guides when the overhead LED-shadow setup is so much better and you don't need to loving dial it in ever
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Aug 12, 2020 19:27
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Well the Dewalt 780 costs like twice as much as the 779 and the only difference is the 780 has the shadow line thing, so either they somehow cost a fuckton or they're just hoping the rip people the gently caress off. If it's the latter though, then I don't know why every other miter saw manufacturer doesn't just cut the floor out on them with their several hundred dollar cheaper shadow line saws.
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Aug 12, 2020 19:59
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Elysium posted:Well the Dewalt 780 costs like twice as much as the 779 and the only difference is the 780 has the shadow line thing, so either they somehow cost a fuckton or they're just hoping the rip people the gently caress off. If it's the latter though, then I don't know why every other miter saw manufacturer doesn't just cut the floor out on them with their several hundred dollar cheaper shadow line saws. It's literally just an LED mounted above the blade. You can DIY one for like $2 Dewalt is definitely gouging people
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Aug 12, 2020 20:02
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Sockser posted:I have the Delta Cruzer miter saw and it sits pretty cleanly on a 24" countertop. If I ever need to, for some reason, get a car in that side of my garage, I can tilt it to 60 degrees and it only hangs over the edge of the counter by like 1" or so Because lasers are cool, and having a high cool factor is important for
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Aug 12, 2020 20:02
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It takes 2 seconds to drop the blade (while off) and make sure the tooth lines up with the mark. Solution to a problem that doesn't exist if you ask me.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:14
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Yah, I'll turn on my laser but really I rely more on dropping the blade and a zero clearance insert to like up cuts than the laser.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:17
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Just throw on your laser show projector and some good beats and hope for the best really
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Aug 12, 2020 20:20
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Harry Potter on Ice posted:Just throw on your laser show projector and some good beats and hope for the best really This how I hang things on the wall.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:23
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Mr. Mambold posted:I've never doubted your experience, and I appreciated your posts several years ago and stayed out of the pissing matches you got yourself into....but the sanctimonious tone you still take about a thing like a tool arrangement preference is what's irksome. I don't understand what is sanctimonious about responding to statements of opinion, and critiques of opinion, with acknowledgement that they are opinions. Mr. Mambold posted:I'd go with Jeeves' opinion that the most used tool takes center stage. If you've got a table saw for boutique reason, don't even. And I suppose hobbyists fall somewhere between green and professional, so there's that. I agree. I'm saying think about what you want your work to center around and create a layout based on those goals, rather than just accepting conventional wisdom like "table saw goes in the middle". In reality with a 10' wide shop having the TS dead center is going to make even moving around it difficult and can significantly constrain placement of other tools. Most likely this thing will get right-aligned to a wall regardless, either initially or later out of frustration. I work in a 10'x8' dedicated space within a larger garage (where I can use additional space for outfeed, but not for tool placement) and at 8' or 10' in width, centrally locating large tools does not leave much extra room for movement around the tool. Aligning tools to the edge of the space and keeping the middle for movement has worked much better in my experience.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:28
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