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Like literally somebody is a freelance writer and saying "my income is hosed" and the responses aren't "that sucks how can we make it better" they're "well your company is exploitive" which is true but doesn't really give that guy an income
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Aug 22, 2020 00:03
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Arsenic Lupin posted:They track contributions already, but they don't have a system in place to say "Do not give Fred an assignment, he's a Californian and we've already given him 35 assignments this year." This is an actual software change, with an enormous financial penalty if you don't do it. Thank you. Freelance writers also invoice-based (as opposed to staff writers, who are salaried and just turn in a timesheet), and the turnaround time can unfortunately be months, which adds even more complexities to legal compliance with some piecework approach. It's also not uncommon for a writer's original draft to be split up and repurposed. Recently I wrote a profile, where the main piece was published (they decided to use it as the cover article actually, which was pretty cool), a tangential discussion was used as sidebar content in another section, and some more quotes were thrown into a frankensteined "roundup" article under someone else's byline. I got paid very well and all of that is ordinary so I don't mind one bit, but is that one "submission" or three? What if the article is licensed to run elsewhere, as often happens? What if it's published both in print and online? How about the subscriber app, is that counted separate from online publication? My agent has negotiated compensation for me for these scenarios but every writer's contract is different, as is their beat and the publishing patterns of the sector they write for.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:03
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Arsenic Lupin posted:They track contributions already, but they don't have a system in place to say "Do not give Fred an assignment, he's a Californian and we've already given him 35 assignments this year." This is an actual software change, with an enormous financial penalty if you don't do it. so is the problem that the quotas aren't tuned properly for the specific industry or that the imposition of any quota / test at all is an unreasonable JOB KILLING REGULATION because i'm kinda getting mixed messages here
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Aug 22, 2020 00:04
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Sorry to hear that. Maybe you should go outside and talk to those people since I haven't seen any of them in this thread. Fly Molo posted:Or we could gut all worker protections then beg for the benevolent job creators to come back, that’s fine too.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:05
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Oneiros posted:so is the problem that the quotas aren't tuned properly for the specific industry or that the imposition of any quota / test at all is an unreasonable JOB KILLING REGULATION because i'm kinda getting mixed messages here The problem is that the law was written with one industry in mind - ridesharing - and lumped in all the other industries that use 1099 without looking at how they differ or talking to any experts in those fields. The very idea that the CA leg would draft anything affecting writers without consulting the state's leading expert in the field, Foxfire_ ...honestly it's just damning proof that the bill was set up to fail.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:07
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:if you live in hurricane country it's at least an annual thing, with occasional week+ outages every few years when a big one rolls through I have always been on SCE which, apparently, while still an investor-owned utility, is just less lovely than PG&E
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Aug 22, 2020 00:08
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Oneiros posted:so is the problem that the quotas aren't tuned properly for the specific industry or that the imposition of any quota / test at all is an unreasonable JOB KILLING REGULATION because i'm kinda getting mixed messages here The problems, fundamentally, are assuming that 100% of piecemeal contract work is fundamentally exploitative, and also assuming that 100% of employers employing Californians for that kind of work would just comply with a CA law rather than bailing on the state and leaving those workers destitute. The quota is just symptomatic, since it's being used inappropriately as a proxy for the much more complicated task of determining just how much work for a single employer ought to constitute grounds for forcing a W2 basis. If you accept that some types of workers actually are fine doing nothing but contract work, then you no longer have to try to magic up a formula that determines the threshold at which they somehow become the exploited class. If you alternatively accept that some kinds of work are just easily yanked out of state, then again you can exclude those types of work and no longer have to try to magic up a threshold of ease-of-compliance that would ensure employers don't just blanket exclude Californians from consideration for work. If you have the opinion that 100% of all work ought to be on a W-2 basis, and you'd rather force them out of state than allow them to be "exploited" within California, then you're telling people like Huego that you know better what's good for them than they do and they should just  , and that's arrogant as gently caress.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:13
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Like, the new "digital gig economy" is rife with exploitation, it's gross as gently caress. But there's also been people doing work on contract basis for many employers or just one employer without being exploited and this law is loving them over. It would be really healthy and good to just accept that hey, this legislation is having severe unintended consequences and needs to be revised. That really should not be a difficult jump for anyone in this thread to make. It's baffling.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:15
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I came into this discussion wanting to improve society somewhat, but thanks to the brave communists of this thread, I now know that society is already perfect and we never need to change anything.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:16
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Oneiros posted:so is the problem that the quotas aren't tuned properly for the specific industry or that the imposition of any quota / test at all is an unreasonable JOB KILLING REGULATION because i'm kinda getting mixed messages here Huego has quite consistently been saying "The law is badly tuned for my industry".
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Aug 22, 2020 00:19
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Oneiros posted:so is the problem that the quotas aren't tuned properly for the specific industry or that the imposition of any quota / test at all is an unreasonable JOB KILLING REGULATION because i'm kinda getting mixed messages here I would say that the fundamental problem is that race-to-the-bottom in the presence of regulations is a thing, and there is little-to-no natural bar to moving some kinds of work to jurisdictions with fewer protections. So CA passes more labor laws, companies move work to other states, if labor laws pass federally, jobs would move to offshore, etc... I don't think that anyone's ever found a good way to deal with it except that eventually the costs of having remote workers far away from the audience and clients catch up to the savings. Not really different from sending call center or software engineer jobs to low wage countries.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:19
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Foxfire_ posted:I would say that the fundamental problem is that race-to-the-bottom in the presence of regulations is a thing, and there is little-to-no natural bar to moving some kinds of work to jurisdictions with fewer protections. So CA passes more labor laws, companies move work to other states, if labor laws pass federally, jobs would move to offshore, etc... I don't think that anyone's ever found a good way to deal with it except that eventually the costs of having remote workers far away from the audience and clients catch up to the savings. Not really different from sending call center or software engineer jobs to low wage countries. Fun shift to doom-and-gloom, publishing expert, but again this isn't a binary situation. Our choices aren't "let regulation hurt workers" or "don't regulate at all." We can improve laws. By listening to the people they affect.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:22
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Huego posted:Fun shift to doom-and-gloom, publishing expert, but again this isn't a binary situation. Our choices aren't "let regulation hurt workers" or "don't regulate at all." We can improve laws. By listening to the people they affect. What would you recommend if you were writing a law for it? From how I've understood your experience, you've found that the paperwork burden of counting # of contracts per contractor (but still concluding they are contractors, not employees) is enough to make companies shift to out-of-state, so it seems hard to find something less burdonsome.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:30
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Foxfire_ posted:What would you recommend if you were writing a law for it? From how I've understood your experience, you've found that the paperwork burden of counting # of contracts per contractor (but still concluding they are contractors, not employees) is enough to make companies shift to out-of-state, so it seems hard to find something less burdonsome. You don't understand jack poo poo and have made it very clear that you have no interest in ever listening to anyone but your own rear end, so I'll keep my recommendations to my industry labor orgs, thanks all the same. There could have been a conversation here, but your ego wouldn't stand for it,.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:34
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My wife's business dealt with this and 1099 contractors. The solution was for the independents to form their own businesses, get a business license, and open an account directly linked to that business. As a freelance writer who likely dictates their own schedule you'll probably pass the ABC test
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Aug 22, 2020 00:38
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Goodpancakes posted:My wife's business dealt with this and 1099 contractors. The solution was for the independents to form their own businesses, get a business license, and open an account directly linked to that business. How many different ways can I say "I know how my own job works" before one of you actually hears it? I know that I pass the ABC test. I know what a business license is. I also know a whole lot of editors that set up an automated rejection for every CA resident in their contacts list. Is "let's improve something" really just so unfathomable to a group of self-described progressives that you'll go to any lengths to get out of even thinking about it?
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Aug 22, 2020 00:42
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^^ This was literally my first thought. It's not hard to incorporate and people do this all the loving time when doing 1099-style freelance work in the computer touching realm. There's some extra pain, but it's not like undoable. Maybe something uniquely stupid about the publishing industry, idk.Huego posted:Fun shift to doom-and-gloom, publishing expert, but again this isn't a binary situation. Our choices aren't "let regulation hurt workers" or "don't regulate at all." We can improve laws. By listening to the people they affect. Yea, I'd rather not. This means the chamber of commerce and homeowners write everything and *gestures outside*
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Aug 22, 2020 00:43
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Buffer posted:^^ This was literally my first thought. It's not hard to incorporate and people do this all the loving time when doing 1099-style freelance work in the computer touching realm. There's some extra pain, but it's not like undoable. Maybe something uniquely stupid about the publishing industry, idk. Holy poo poo. Ok, I'm done. If we're equating listening to workers talk about how labor laws affect them with nimby poo poo, I'm done. Have fun sucking each other off, "progressives."
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Aug 22, 2020 00:45
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I can see why this guy is a writer. Very eloquent.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:46
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Goodpancakes posted:As a freelance writer who likely dictates their own schedule you'll probably pass the ABC test Yeah but it's a lot easier for the publisher to just blanket-deny CA authors than risk having to deal with ABC testing every submitter and expose themselves to liability.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:47
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luminalflux posted:Yeah but it's a lot easier for the publisher to just blanket-deny CA authors than risk having to deal with ABC testing every submitter and expose themselves to liability. they could do this for literally any reason and it's *trivial* to have an address in another state
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Aug 22, 2020 00:49
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"I support workers" "no not like that"
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Aug 22, 2020 00:49
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Buffer posted:they could do this for literally any reason and it's *trivial* to have an address in another state also why don't they just eat beans and rice for every meal to cut their expenses c'mon guys this is the easiest poo poo imaginable
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Aug 22, 2020 00:51
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Buffer posted:they could do this for literally any reason and it's *trivial* to have an address in another state Both the employer and the state can so easily catch you doing that that there's now boilerplate about "don't do that if we catch you doing that you forfeit all your pay and we blacklist you across our entire publishing group" in every job listing and congrats for being so mindbogglingly ignorant it ruined my flounce out of the thread. Just, in general y'all need to have enough self-awareness to realize that your smug IT-guy "bing bong, so simple!" solutions are worthless literally 100% of the time. If you want to have opinions on improving a thing, start by listening to people who deal with the thing. Edit: Wait what am I saying, of course progressives can't listen to people, that way lies nimbyism.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:55
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I think its reasonable to say that AB5 might not have been written perfectly, but the ballot prop to change it would make the situation even worse. The legislature should look to make some minor tweaks, but we shouldn't be looking to throw it out. It was passed for a reason
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Aug 22, 2020 00:55
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idk California could pass that pandemic unemployment assistance extension it was talking about, or extend the eviction moratorium that’s about to expire. Both of those would go a long way toward protecting a broad swath of workers across exploited industries
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Aug 22, 2020 00:56
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That's this: Cup Runneth Over posted:e: What I DO see in this thread is people making arguments against "AB5 is evil and destroying Californian industry, it should be repealed!" I mean, do any of you have any suggestions on what could be changed about AB5 to make it better? I haven't even seen anything rise to the extremely low bar of, say, "let's raise it from 35 pieces to 50" or "here is how we could separate high-quality pieces from low-quality, high-quantity ones" If you don't provide anything constructive of course people are going to view your attitude towards AB5 as destructive and defend what they see as a necessary first step to protecting exploited contractors. Huego posted:Just, in general y'all need to have enough self-awareness to realize that your smug IT-guy "bing bong, so simple!" solutions are worthless literally 100% of the time. If you want to have opinions on improving a thing, start by listening to people who deal with the thing. You literally haven't said poo poo about improving it all you've done is bitch and moan
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Aug 22, 2020 00:57
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Cup Runneth Over posted:That's this: What I, the only person who actually works in this field, have consistently been saying is that entire concept of "pieces" is meaningless in the context of writing. Classic liberal "well if you don't take orders from me I guess you deserve poverty then," though. Seriously, chef's kiss, yass queen get their asses Mizz Pelosi.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:59
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The Glumslinger posted:I think its reasonable to say that AB5 might not have been written perfectly, but the ballot prop to change it would make the situation even worse. The legislature should look to make some minor tweaks, but we shouldn't be looking to throw it out. It was passed for a reason Uh oh this sounds like dangerously close to "maybe we should fix AB5 and help people". Yeah, lets fix AB5 and also shoot down the ballot prop
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Aug 22, 2020 00:59
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Huego posted:What I, the only person who actually works in this field, have consistently been saying is that entire concept of "pieces" is meaningless in the context of writing. Classic liberal "well if you don't take orders from me I guess you deserve poverty then," though. Seriously, chef's kiss, yass queen get their asses Mizz Pelosi. This is a good example of what I mean by "not constructive." Here you are, perhaps rightly attacking the concept of "pieces" for qualifying these workers (bear in mind that this law is needed to cover multiple industries, not simply writing, and is therefore broad by design). Did you offer any alternative? No. Are you interested in improving the law? No. You're just here to bitch. So it should come as no surprise that people aren't interested in listening to you, and are willing to defend the law against your attacks since you clearly just want to tear it down.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:01
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AB5 cannot help freelance writers, because the fact of them being 1099 workers is not what makes them exploited. Strict word rate minimums (a term I'm sure all you publishing experts understand without definition) and serious scrutiny of content mills and anyone employing overseas freelancers would do far more to help writers than any "well writing's probably just like IT work, right?" you thought leaders are scrumming up here.Cup Runneth Over posted:This is a good example of what I mean by "not constructive." I don't loving report to you. Seriously so far the suggestions you geniuses have come up with so far are "publishers should just break the law!" "writers should just break the law!" and "do not, under any circumstances, listen to people" so lmao at scolding me for being insufficiently "constructive." Leave me out of your principal/naughty schoolgirl roleplay, sweetheart. Huego fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 01:03
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you also have a 2020 reg date and uber/lyft astroturf - why the gently caress should we believe a word you say about anything?
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Aug 22, 2020 01:05
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Huego posted:AB5 cannot help freelance writers, because the fact of them being 1099 workers is not what makes them exploited. Strict word rate minimums (a term I'm sure all you publishing experts understand without definition) and serious scrutiny of content mills and anyone employing overseas freelancers would do far more to help writers than any "well writing's probably just like IT work, right?" you thought leaders are scrumming up here. OK, this is a good start. I suggest you write your local state legislators and tell them that from your experience as a freelance writer, written works should be exempt from that law and they should consider instead passing legislation aimed at eliminating content mills. As you have previously pointed out, there is nothing California can do to stop any business from just hiring outside the state, so I am uncertain what they could do to stop them from hiring overseas either.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:05
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Huego more like Fuego because this poster is heated!!!
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Aug 22, 2020 01:06
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Buffer posted:you also have a 2020 reg date and uber/lyft astroturf - why the gently caress should we believe a word you say about anything? Yeah I'm sure the rideshares are spending money to infiltrate the important wifebeater boards to complain about industries that aren't rideshares while saying "yes gently caress rideshares".
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Aug 22, 2020 01:08
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Chomp8645 posted:I can see why this guy is a writer. Very eloquent. This reminds me a lot of when I worked for a Very Big Software Company and all the software engineers knew better than the gardeners where the sprinklers should be set up.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:08
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Buffer posted:you also have a 2020 reg date and uber/lyft astroturf - why the gently caress should we believe a word you say about anything? Huego posted:I still strongly support CA fighting against the epidemic of employers misclassifying their workers, and I'll be happy to see Uber and Lyft die even though, as someone who doesn't own a car, it will have a large and immediate negative effect on my life. Oh poo poo, now on top of everything I'm gonna lose my job at the astroturf factory. Cup Runneth Over posted:OK, this is a good start. I suggest you write your local state legislators and tell them that from your experience as a freelance writer, written works should be exempt from that law and they should consider instead passing legislation aimed at eliminating content mills. I still don't loving report to you. Stop trying to moderate a discussion about an industry you don't work in and a problem it faces that you don't understand.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:08
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Huego posted:I still don't loving report to you. Stop trying to moderate a discussion about an industry you don't work in and a problem it faces that you don't understand. nice meltdown
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Aug 22, 2020 01:09
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Cup Runneth Over posted:nice meltdown
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Aug 22, 2020 01:11
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Cup Runneth Over posted:nice meltdown
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Aug 22, 2020 01:12
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