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YOLOsubmarine posted:Tesla, as a company, has only ever managed to turn a profit by selling carbon credits, which means they aren’t breaking even on product. You could argue that they are aggressively reinvesting and that’s why they never show a net profit on sales despite having supposedly healthy margins, and maybe that’s true, but pretty much ever auto maker is doing heavy investment in new plant and research all the time and they still need to also turn a profit from actually selling cars. Currently Tesla is selling cars and pollution rights and it’s the pollution rights that have the great margins. And those credits are going away as the other OEMs introduce EV models because they have to due to EU regulations. I would not argue Tesla is aggressively reinvesting, their capex and R&D has been steadily declining and is dwarfed by the other manufacturers' spending. Which is strange because they're supposed to be developing the cybertruck, roadster, and semi truck as they're also building the Berlin and Texas factories, and expanding the supercharger network + doing a complete rewrite of the autopilot software. I left the Chinese factory off of this because you can basically consider it completely separate from Tesla for the foreseeable future.
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Aug 22, 2020 17:42
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Would you be able to adapt Chademo to charge from a CCS charger?
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Aug 22, 2020 17:45
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Charles posted:Would you be able to adapt Chademo to charge from a CCS charger? Nope.
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Aug 22, 2020 17:49
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FAT CURES MUSCLES posted:If ford or toyota comes out with an electric Ranger or Tacoma that can at least get comparable range as my current M3, AND has a built up network of chargers that is easily accessible ala Superchargers, I would trade in a heartbeat. That's a Model 3, not a BMW, right? Ford's supposed to come out with a new, small unibody fwd pickup next year, I know it won't get an EV variant, but man it'd be fantastic if it did. Also eagerly awaiting the big two Japanese manufacturers to be forced into making EVs.
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Aug 22, 2020 18:00
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Cardiac posted:
Zoe has CCS from model year 2019 according to this: https://support.fastned.nl/hc/en-gb/articles/360035723373-Charging-with-a-Renault-ZOE-CCS-
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Aug 22, 2020 18:14
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Elviscat posted:That's a Model 3, not a BMW, right? Yup, to be honest even an electric van would be incredibly useful as well. Something transit sized that can hot swap seats in the front behind the driver seat but enough space in the back I can load up a dirtbike or (smaller) motorcycle.
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Aug 22, 2020 18:25
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Yeah, I need to transport: Dirt bikes, kayaks, and building materials (often enough that renting is not feasible) give me something that can handle the first two, and 75% of the last one, and I can finally get rid of the Danger Ranger. The Leaf's kinda a stop-gap for me anyway, eventually I'd like a vehicle with 250+ mile range, so I can do road trips and haul fun stuff around in an all-in-one. I don't want a cyber truck or EF150 or some other monstrosity that gets awful economy and is a hassle to daily.
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Aug 22, 2020 19:01
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FAT CURES MUSCLES posted:Conveniently for you, I’ve seen tons of Superchargers attached to gas stations Also, I did an experiment with the Kia Lane Keep Assist. On an interstate with no traffic and gentle curves I set the cruise and LKA and then took my hands off the wheel. The car beeped a single beep after a few seconds, on the dash in white it said "Please put your hands on the wheel". After a few more seconds it started beeping a lot more and louder and the message turned to red. Then it turned off and stopped following the lane but kept going at the speed set on cruise control. I let it drift into the next lane just to confirm and then took the wheel. Having the CC stay on after dropping lane control seems like a bad idea, it should drop CC and have the regen brakes kick in. The jolt should wake up an inattentive or sleepy driver, or at least slow down the car before it hits something. CannonFodder fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 19:48
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. Though these are Sheetz and WaWa’s so they are more “high class” than other conventional gas stations. I’m sure other DCFC companies have built their chargers around service stations.
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Just got back from a mini road trip (~850mi roundtrip) from the Seattle area to a remote cabin in Montana. Despite charging multiple times on the way there and back, we never really felt like we were waiting on the charge. It was usually done by the time we finished using the bathroom or eating. I'm not the type to try and optimize road trip miles per day, but I'm sure those folks would have an issue with it. We knew we were going to make it to and from the destination in a single day, so we weren't in any kind of rush. A few notes:
I'm realizing after typing this out that it doesn't seem to be very notable. I guess that's the message I'd want to send to people seeing if EVs can work for them. It all felt very normal, but I've definitely changed my view of normal. People who think that charging on trips is too much of an imposition should just try it. Eat your food slower or something. Give your brain a break. It's not a big deal and road trip charging breaks are not going to make up any significant portion of most peoples' ownership experience. Make the common case easy and the rare case possible.
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Aug 22, 2020 20:55
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RZA Encryption posted:It all felt very normal, but I've definitely changed my view of normal. This sums it up well and fits with my new mantra of "just how little are you willing to sacrifice?". If you decide this is the new normal, it's a very tiny adjustment. Not really a sacrifice at all. Did about 350 km in the I-Pace today:  In order to check out this new spectacular bridge built over a waterfall:  There are many things I don't like about the I-Pace, interfaces, UX, too many screens, too many menus, bings and bongs that don't tell you why they bing and bong, buggy release from fast chargers, etc. But one thing to absolutely adore is to give it some twisty back country roads. Went down a road I have done a lot on a motorcycle and while it was a bit different to be big and wide on those narrow roads, the plush, planted feeling through corners and the raw freight train torque out of them was  Made it lose traction uphill in the wet, didn't have the balls to try it on a flat bit because the speed just piles on so fast.I'd like to try it on 20s, but think I would stick with 19s unless they somehow matched the smaller ones on comfort and consumption. WHAT am I talking about I'm not buying one CLOSE YOURSELF car financing website!
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Aug 22, 2020 21:24
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Indiana_Krom posted:Can you post credible sources showing Tesla is still selling Model 3/Ys at a loss? Yes, look at their quarterly earnings report and their profit. Now subtract the amount they get from selling clean energy credits to other manufacturers. The number isn't positive.
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Aug 23, 2020 00:28
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MrLogan posted:Yes, look at their quarterly earnings report and their profit. Now subtract the amount they get from selling clean energy credits to other manufacturers. The number isn't positive. There is a bit more going on in their quarterly report for you to simply concluded that the car itself is not profitable. Money spent investing in new factories will make the number more negative, for one.
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Aug 23, 2020 00:38
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Who cares. You can earn a profit on an individual thing while still posting a loss in overall earnings, and vice versa.
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Aug 23, 2020 00:41
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Ola posted:There is a bit more going on in their quarterly report for you to simply concluded that the car itself is not profitable. Money spent investing in new factories will make the number more negative, for one. No it won't. New factories are capex and do not affect profit.
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Aug 23, 2020 01:20
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Gamesguy posted:No it won't. New factories are capex and do not affect profit. Yeah maybe I got that wrong, see above. You can just take the whole and make a claim about the part.
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Aug 23, 2020 01:26
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Gamesguy posted:No it won't. New factories are capex and do not affect profit. Capex is tied in with depreciation, which does affect profits. In some cases you can write off the capex immediatly. Annnnd getting back onto EV's, had a look at a 2020 Leaf yesterday which I kinda liked - it would be a fairly decent (and surprsingly large, I really thought it would be smaller that that) city car esp as I'm not going to find a drat thing anymore for what my use is without a CVT or a awful auto. Buuuuuuuuuut......... 55 thousand dollars -_- JFC what the hell, this is not 55K worth of car by a long shot even where cars are not cheap - this is getting into Golf R territory and well above a Hyunday i30N Performance. EV's are sensationally overpriced here, no loving wonder they arent really selling.
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Aug 23, 2020 03:04
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Capex is tied in with depreciation, which does affect profits. In some cases you can write off the capex immediatly. Are there no tax credits in Australia?
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Aug 23, 2020 04:18
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CannonFodder posted:Are there no tax credits in Australia? I don’t know if we have any subsidies for electric cars in Australia but three friends of mine have Teslas and none of them mentioned any. We do have solar PV subsidies but overall the conservative side of politics here (our current Federal Government) are pro fossil fucks, who talk down renewables and refuse to face facts that accept that fossil fuels are on the decline. I assume they’ve all been building careers aimed at moving into cushy private sector jobs in relevant fields when they retire from politics. Last election, when the Opposition’s platform was published and included a target of 50% new vehicle sales being electrics by 2030, the Government went out and talked about how the Labor party wants to take away your weekend, you can’t tow a boat with an electric car, you can’t get an electric ute (pickup), blah blah blah. Morons ate that poo poo up, as if they were talking about confiscating fossil-powered cars or something. Ignoring the massive towing torque which would be available with electric vehicles, and the fact that increased uptake of electric vehicles will speed up the inception of an electric ute and any other number of things that don’t yet exist, as well as bring costs down so they’re not such a luxury vehicle. Nevermind the video QANTAS put out showing a Model X towing a 787 sometime before our dickhead PM went out and made those statements...
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Aug 23, 2020 05:23
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GlassEye-Boy posted:https://youtu.be/upk1S-ATV6g Apparently they got less than 500 $100 preorder deposits. It's probably going to flop hard. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Capex is tied in with depreciation, which does affect profits. In some cases you can write off the capex immediatly. Ola posted:Yeah maybe I got that wrong, see above. You can just take the whole and make a claim about the part. Per vehicle gross profit completely ignores SG&A, R&D, etc. Cars don't just teleport into homes from the factory with zero overhead or warranty. If you take out the carbon credits Tesla has never generated a profit ever. I imagine this is true for all other EVs as well. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Aug 23, 2020 |
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Aug 23, 2020 05:28
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CannonFodder posted:Are there no tax credits in Australia? No there isnt. And even if we had say a 10K subsidy, 45K for what you get in a Leaf is still not great - Thats still in with the higher end hatchbacks and performace options. You would have to be basically only buying the Leaf because it's an EV and not because it's better value or does anything better. https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/sports-cars/i30-n We have that within the price bracket. Now sure a genuine hot hatch isnt quite the same or cross shopping, but it shows that EV's are just not priced well. Even in the Hyundai dealership you look at EV's they now have, the IONIQ is still 55K or more. A Kona EV starts at 63K... which is rather off putting when he regular Kona is 20K LESS at minimum. The gap just gets more ridiculous if you scale down a few model levels. And with a 7K price difference between a base Kona EV and a Model 3 Standard Plus.... well there's really no debate, it's a Model 3 anyday. As an aside, it was noticable inventory levels in car dealers was low and there were remarkably few people even kicking tyres.
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Aug 23, 2020 06:31
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At risk of being off topic... according to this article from autoblog, it looks like Tesla just started to hit a per car profit again at the end of 2019: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/28/tesla-earnings-per-vehicle-profits/ This one from spring might be useful too since it breaks down car margins vs pollution credits https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/29/tesla-turns-q1-profit-on-cost-reductions-rising-car-margins-credits/ I can't find the source, maybe an investor meeting? but GM said earlier this year that Bolts are sold at a profit now. Ford also said that the Mustang Mach E will be profitable from day one. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2019-11-18/ford-ceo-says-electric-mustang-will-bring-instant-profit-video Is it battery supply chains coming online, I wonder? Two of those companies don't qualify for any special incentives in the US or anything.
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Aug 23, 2020 18:07
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:No there isnt. And even if we had say a 10K subsidy, 45K for what you get in a Leaf is still not great - Thats still in with the higher end hatchbacks and performace options. You would have to be basically only buying the Leaf because it's an EV and not because it's better value or does anything better. When converting Freedom Dollars to Didgeridollars those numbers are pretty close.
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Aug 23, 2020 20:16
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Here4DaGangBang posted:Nevermind the video QANTAS put out showing a Model X towing a 787 sometime before our dickhead PM went out and made those statements... Yeah but it didn't even have any passengers in it, and let me just say that as a typical American, my towing needs dictate that
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Aug 23, 2020 21:57
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Just got back from test driving a Kona, really liked it. Couple questions: -Most of my poking about online seemed to involve people talking about how long the wait time is, without mentioning the price. I assume if not otherwise mentioned, people are paying MSRP? All the dealerships around here (Vancouver) seem to have stock available but are asking ~$1500 above MSRP (through mandatory documentation and "safety" package add-ons), and are unresponsive when asked whether it's possible to order at MSRP and just wait. Is this super odd? Or standard practice? -Is there any charger out there that can pull power from two separate 240V 20A circuits? Running thicker gauge wire for a 40A circuit is a non-starter. With the magic/cheapness of power electronics these days, I can't imagine it would be technically too difficult, but maybe it's too much of an edge case to bother with? Kreez fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Aug 24, 2020 |
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Aug 24, 2020 01:33
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Kreez posted:-Is there any charger out there that can pull power from two separate 240V 20A circuits? Running thicker gauge wire for a 40A circuit is a non-starter. With the magic/cheapness of power electronics these days, I can't imagine it would be technically too difficult, but maybe it's too much of an edge case to bother with?
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Aug 24, 2020 02:14
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Yeah, I'd never try anything like that unless it was a proper UL listed product loaded with idiot proof electronics that only fire everything up if things are just so.
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Aug 24, 2020 02:25
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I have two EVs, installed a 14-50 outlet with a 50 amp breaker, and only ever use an old 16A bosch evse plugged into it. I could get and use a 40A one, but the 16A was free and its been fine. I really don't drive a ton, though (especially now). So running a 16A evse on the 20A breaker might be good enough for you?
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Aug 24, 2020 02:47
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Yeah, I'm sure a single 16A charger will be fine, not a deal breaker at all.
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Aug 24, 2020 03:01
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Not a breaker breaker either! 
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Aug 24, 2020 03:09
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Kreez posted:Yeah, I'm sure a single 16A charger will be fine, not a deal breaker at all. Do you actually have 2 240V 20A outlets near each other for some reason? On separate circuits?
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Aug 24, 2020 03:50
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Gamesguy posted:Instead of compromising with an EV that'll fit 100% of your situations, why not get one that's good for 99% and rent something for that other 1%? Hell man, I wasn't talking about road tripping. My commute used to be 40 miles each way and if I wanted better groceries than the local walmart I had to drive further in the other direction, and there weren't any public chargers yet. In college I put almost 130 miles per day on my car (that was back when Prius was new and interesting). However, I'm well aware that these situations don't apply to most people...they don't even apply to me anymore. Since moving, I bought a Volt and the gas engine runs every three months or so because I'm far closer to civilization. But I can see that people have different needs and wants in their transportation, and I'm sure as hell not going to argue against taking steps in the right direction just because it's inconvenient. Also I hate rental cars.
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Aug 24, 2020 04:21
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Elviscat posted:Do you actually have 2 240V 20A outlets near each other for some reason? On separate circuits? Yup, a plug is installed in each of our two spots in the garage, and there's zero reason to think we'd ever have an EV charging in each spot. Just figured it might be a common enough scenario that there was a mass produced charger out there that was designed for this use case.
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Aug 24, 2020 04:25
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Godholio posted:Hell man, I wasn't talking about road tripping. My commute used to be 40 miles each way and if I wanted better groceries than the local walmart I had to drive further in the other direction, and there weren't any public chargers yet. In college I put almost 130 miles per day on my car (that was back when Prius was new and interesting). However, I'm well aware that these situations don't apply to most people...they don't even apply to me anymore. Since moving, I bought a Volt and the gas engine runs every three months or so because I'm far closer to civilization. But I can see that people have different needs and wants in their transportation, and I'm sure as hell not going to argue against taking steps in the right direction just because it's inconvenient. Also I hate rental cars. My problem is when people argue that only Teslas are viable electric cars because no other EV can be used for a US roadtrip, or that no EV is suitable because they drive 500 miles to their grandma in Nebraska once a year. I just don't understand this mentality, I'd much rather rent than deal with trip planning an EV long distance.
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Aug 24, 2020 11:26
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Westy543 posted:At risk of being off topic... according to this article from autoblog, it looks like Tesla just started to hit a per car profit again at the end of 2019: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/01/28/tesla-earnings-per-vehicle-profits/ Again, these profit numbers are unit profit not program profit. Unit profitability (and really all profitability other than complete company wide numbers) is easily adjusted. If you want to make a vehicle look profitable, you shift discounts, SG&A, logistics, etc out of the cost and you look at pure production costs. That's labor, purchases from suppliers, and cost of any internally manufactured parts. If you aren't making a marginal unit profit, you are hosed because selling more cars = more losses. It is generally pretty hard to manufacture cars at a unit loss and this should be a transitory step if you must do. So Mach E ought to be unit profitable, and Bolt drat well better be unit profitable by now. However, when you talk about program profit (eg did Bolt make money for GM), you now need to account for all the depreciation on capex for setting up plants, some R&D numbers (particularly large for EVs), SG&A, etc. Quick rule of thumb is that a new vehicle program for a conventional ICE car costs about half a billion dollars in cash. Figure an EV program is probably more expensive at this point.
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Aug 24, 2020 12:39
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Gamesguy posted:My problem is when people argue that only Teslas are viable electric cars because no other EV can be used for a US roadtrip, or that no EV is suitable because they drive 500 miles to their grandma in Nebraska once a year. You are vastly underestimating the number of people who like to take a 200 mile trip without having to plan ahead. Won't have a charging station at the big crowded parking lot, and you're already trying to cram the whole trip into a single weekend or a single day so spending a half hour each direction kinda sucks. Going from Denver to a ski area and back . Going from Detroit MI to Traverse City MI for a winery tour. Or from Columbus OH to Bardstown KY for the distilleries. Going from Montgomery AL to the gulf coast. Going to Cedar Point or Six Flags. Or going to a concert in another city. These are all things that you might just suddenly decide to do on Thursday or Friday, so no time to set up a rental for the next day.
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Aug 24, 2020 17:11
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Speleothing posted:You are vastly underestimating the number of people who like to take a 200 mile trip without having to plan ahead. Won't have a charging station at the big crowded parking lot, and you're already trying to cram the whole trip into a single weekend or a single day so spending a half hour each direction kinda sucks. Comfortably within opportunity for most current EVs in environments where there is a certain charging infrastructure, which is bound to be commonplace sooner or later - obviously in EV hotspots like Norway, the Netherlands and California first.
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Aug 24, 2020 17:51
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I have to agree that renting a car last minute (ie anywhere under a week in advance), even in America, land of cheap and plentiful car rentals, is really not a workable solution. However, a few minutes of looking where the charge points are on your route, should you need one, is really all the planning you need to do. My work colleague did a few thousand km's road trip on his Bolt from Quebec down through the eastern seaboard of the US and back, and he didn't need to go out of his way for anything. If you do something like regularly day trip to a ski hill that you know has no chargers, and there are none enroute, and getting there and back on a charge is a dicy proposition, definitely a hybrid is going to be a better vehicle. Last minute get out of town for the weekend stuff doesn't really need any much more time planning than looking at a map and an app, and factoring maybe and extra half an hour - 45 minutes on the journey (which, living where I live, could just as easily be eaten up by traffic and construction in any vehicle so you kind of always factor it in anyway).
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Aug 24, 2020 18:05
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Apparently some of the August Model 3s are being spotted with new trunk struts, a deeper frunk (but smaller, it's the model Y one I think), and different headlights. I wonder if they're making way for a powered trunk and a heat pump? This is among Tesla rumor sites, but the consistent one is the different frunk and several people on Reddit said they had that frunk on their car. I'm honestly surprised they haven't added a powered trunk yet. Heat pump is probably next though. Curious what they have in store at battery day this year.
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Aug 24, 2020 18:09
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There also is a regional divide in mentality on driving distances. If you live in the Midwest, you may well drive six hours to go anywhere significant that isn't where you live. Meanwhile Manhattan to Boston is like 200 miles.
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Aug 24, 2020 18:39
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Westy543 posted:Apparently some of the August Model 3s are being spotted with new trunk struts, a deeper frunk (but smaller, it's the model Y one I think), and different headlights. I wonder if they're making way for a powered trunk and a heat pump? This is among Tesla rumor sites, but the consistent one is the different frunk and several people on Reddit said they had that frunk on their car.
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Aug 24, 2020 19:03
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