Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Star Trek: *hits blunt* The higher, the fewerrrrrr

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
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必ずいつかつかまえる
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&

Like, the way I see it, the Federation as shown to us through the TNG-era Trek is textbook liberalism. "We've solved x and y, so all our problems are solved". I don't believe it was intended to be that way, but the material we're given forces me to view it that way.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 02:57

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# ? May 14, 2024 23:24

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

It's a liberal utopia that's accidentally communism.

I've done ridiculous effortposts on property rights in Star Trek but long story short we can infer they are not strong.

Arglebargle III posted:

There's a lot of interesting speculation on the Federation economy described in The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and to a lesser extent Voyager. To be fair to the movie and TOS era, the 90s Trek spinoffs had the benefit of all being run and written by the same people. So we can forgive Star Trek II or III for mentioning money casually in the 1980s, before the world-building juggernaut really got going.

After the 1987-2001 run when Trek was always on TV, there's a lot we can say about the Federation economy in the 2370s.

First, Federation citizens really don't have or use currency. But second, they never appear to lack currency whenever they need to buy something. No adult on DS9 was ever unable to purchase anything that they wanted, even from foreign alien markets. They all took vacations, built hobby spaceships, drank in the local watering hole seemingly every day, patronized restaurants, and used entertainment services, in a foreign market that was using currency. On a larger scale, Starfleet and the Federation were known to be generous and open-handed. The Federation offered industrial aid to both Bajor and Cardassia, in the form of high-tech capital. There was never any suggestion of the Federation trading foreign currency for this assistance, ever.

To me that suggests whatever personal finances are like, the finances of the state are superabundant. What we see on screen all points to the idea that Federation citizens have everything provided for them because the state has the resources to provide for their material needs, probably many times over. We see many isolated research outposts run by non-Starfleet people throughout the shows. Where'd they get those space stations or self-sufficient habitats on isolated worlds? I think the shows suggest they asked for and received them. For example Captain Sisko built a small spaceship as a hobby. How he was able to afford the materials is never brought up, but it seems likely that he wanted them and received them from somewhere, if he didn't just replicate them.

People have pointed out that land on Earth is still a scarce resource, though probably not so scarce as it is today considering Earth's population is cited as around 3 billion in 2373. Harry Kim has a one-bedroom apartment in San Francisco that was presumably provided for free by the state. Picard has an estate in France, that suggests some sort of property rights attaching to family. Cassidy Yates has a freighter that she seems free to fly around wherever she wants, but it's never clear who owns it. Property rights are surprisingly absent from most Star Trek character interactions. People have personal effects, but don't seem to worry about owning a home or having stuff like furniture. What we see on screen suggests that people own items of sentimental value, and little else. From the perspective of a society where a citizen can ask for and receive a space ship DIY kit or a small research station, it would seem strange to worry about your wardrobe or about buying a house. The one service we've heard of being rationed is transporter use.

Personally I suspect that every Federation citizen has an account somewhere in a computer, with a number that ticks up faster than most people could ever spend it. The whole idea of post-scarcity is that society's capital is productive enough and automated enough that the vast majority can be sustained in relative luxury by the labor of a relative few. For example we see or hear in the 90s Trek run that the communications network is highly automated, that antiproton fuel production is done mostly at huge highly automated solar power stations, and when we see shipyards they are somewhat deserted by modern standards. The Enterprise is so close to being able to run itself that the computer can and does run away with the ship on more than one occasion.

This would explain why the people on DS9 are able to buy whatever they want with foreign currency. If the Federation state is rich enough, it can simply buy latinum with whatever currency or bullion is convenient, and hand it out to citizens in need of foreign currency. Jake Sisko at 17 in DS9 can't get his hands on any latinum, but the other characters don't seem to have any trouble purchasing anything on Bajor or from Quark or the other alien services on the station.

Property rights are a more interesting question. Who owns Cassidy Yates's freighter? Why did she decide to carry freight, when presumably a great deal of cargo transport is automated? I wonder whether property rights might be more relaxed in the 24th century. After all, if the state has given you everything you ever need and most of what you want, no strings attached, from cradle to the grave, it would seem gauche to refuse to give it back when asked.

Prestige is also different in this society, as illustrated by the Bashir patriarch. Bashir is considered a failure in the society of the 2360s, even though he has worked as a shuttle pilot and a landscape designer. Both of those would be fairly high status jobs in the modern day. I get the sense that he's seen as a failure because he bounced around from job to job, instead of cultivating mastery in his chosen discipline. That would jibe with Picard and Jake's lines about working to better yourself and humanity. A comfortable dilettante hasn't really applied himself to that mission.

In honor of page 69, let us all remember that there is canonically a gently caress planet where science and technology makes sure the planet is 60% white sand beaches with perfect weather every day, where nobody seems to have a job, and everyone thinks free love is far out.

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Aug 25, 2020

# ? Aug 25, 2020 04:13

Sash!: Mar 16, 2001

And the only people who ever refer to transporter credits are cadets at the Academy, making it an artificial constraint as part of an honor and discipline system.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 05:14

curiousTerminal: Sep 2, 2011; what a humorous anecdote.

It's harder to mold soldiers to your ideals if they can go home to mommy every night. A military is a military, after all, and a soldier who doesn't think the way their commanding officer does won't carry out their order.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 05:50

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

SardonicTyrant posted:

Like, the way I see it, the Federation as shown to us through the TNG-era Trek is textbook liberalism. "We've solved x and y, so all our problems are solved". I don't believe it was intended to be that way, but the material we're given forces me to view it that way.

The Prime Directive is terrible and stuff like "money isn't a thing but we trade with the Ferengi, as a joke or something" doesn't really work. That would destroy the Ferengi economy as they know it as soon as the first Ferengi figures out that the feds have infinite money or whatever.

DS9 is on the edge of Federation space and they're not supposed to have all the nice amenities or something. But they can still generate food out of thin air and people gamble with their (worthless?) money at Quark's casino.

The show is not about hard sci fi though, in the TNG era it's parable of the week format. DS9 moves away from that because really, there's only so much you can do with that and even by the end of TNG it's becoming clear all is not well in the Federation in the larger political sense.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 06:27

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Why does not Worf, as the largest officer on Deep Space Nine, simply eat all of the other senior staff?

e: It occurs to me that Trek's timeline actually seems to match the outlines of Posadism, albeit not in strong detail and with what might infer to be Vulcan characteristics that rubbed off on hewmons. You have an atomic war that devastates the planet but not to the point of completely obliterating everything back to the stone age, you have the intervention of the Space Brothers in the form of the Vulcans, you even have the dolphins. No water-birth, though.

I figure there's a lot of economic technology, so to speak, which is probably abstracted because it would be pretty loving boring. I do think in the case of Ferengi it is clear that their capitalism is not exactly what Earth would understand as capitalism, it's more of a plutonomic religion/philosophy which is dominant on Ferenginar.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Aug 25, 2020

# ? Aug 25, 2020 06:47

bull3964: Nov 18, 2000; DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.

Nessus posted:

Why does not Worf, as the largest officer on Deep Space Nine, simply eat all of the other senior staff?

He filled up on books.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 07:01

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

SardonicTyrant posted:

To me the problem is that, individual characters might hem and haw about the Federation's principles and think they could do more, but nothing actually changes on a structural level. A Federation tribunal judged that Data was a sentient being and not Federation property, but nothing seems to have changed for any other artificial beings ; the Doctor has to prove his own personhood in a later season, and nothing about that first trial is referenced.

(actually that trial with Data was profoundly hosed up, because Riker was basically blackmailed to play prosecutor or else the trial would default to judging Data as property)

It's a bunch of episodic shows. Voyager wasn't going to make a major part of its episode resolution a TNG episode, because the Voyager writers couldn't be sure people watching the episode had seen that TNG episode, and if they hadn't, it would have just alienated viewers.

Besides, I'm not sure that Star Trek fans ever want anything to change on a structural level. Whenever Star Trek tries to play with its formula, people complain.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 12:08

Angry Salami: Jul 27, 2013; Don't trust the skull.

And just because you've ruled one type of artificial life is a sapient being, that doesn't mean every other type of artificial life would automatically get the same benefits, and it'd be silly if it did. Data's a completely different type of technology to the EMH; it'd make more sense to rule that if Data's a sapient being, so's the Enterprise computer.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 12:55

Worf: Sep 12, 2017; If only Seth would love me like I love him!

Angry Salami posted:

And just because you've ruled one type of artificial life is a sapient being, that doesn't mean every other type of artificial life would automatically get the same benefits, and it'd be silly if it did. Data's a completely different type of technology to the EMH; it'd make more sense to rule that if Data's a sapient being, so's the Enterprise computer.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 13:03

mossyfisk: Nov 8, 2010; FF0000

If they made starship computers people, would everyone compete for postings on the one ship willing to do weird holodeck sex stuff?

# ? Aug 25, 2020 13:18

John Wick of Dogs: Mar 4, 2017; Can't post for 57 minutes!

The computer itself wouldn't be sentient, the Software would. You could produce non sentient sex holograms

# ? Aug 25, 2020 13:36

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

(rewatching Measure of a Man. gently caress this greasy scientist guy. For gently caress's sake Jean-Luc, show a little more compassion for your bridge officer)

(Scientist guy: You read Shakespeare, but do you understand the meaning behind it? Of course not, you are a machine.
Data: I must resign from Starfleet, and I'll give you a thoughtful, considered explanation as to why
Scientist: WAAAAA, I'm going break you into parts, bitch!
)

Angry Salami posted:

And just because you've ruled one type of artificial life is a sapient being, that doesn't mean every other type of artificial life would automatically get the same benefits, and it'd be silly if it did.

If an artificial lifeform can prove it is sentient, why not?

I'd argue that the Federation's weirdly regressive view of artificial life is reminiscent of capitalism's need to reduce the value of labor. It probably wasn't intended by the writers, but that's how I see it.

quote:

Data's a completely different type of technology to the EMH;

And a Klingon is a different type of being than a Founder. One has a brain and one is a mass of liquid (and who knows how that works), but they are both considered sentient beings. How you arrive at sentience shouldn't matter, especially considering how many weird non-human lifeforms are encountered in Trek.

Like, the Enterprise-D met a weird nebula-thing, that talked to the crew and wanted to do experiments. Would it have been able to pass Data's trial? Part of Picard's argument was that Data had a sexual encounter, which a machine wouldn't be able to do; can the Nebula-thing gently caress? Does it really matter?

Angry Salami posted:

it'd make more sense to rule that if Data's a sapient being, so's the Enterprise computer.

This is a ridiculous statement. Unless I'm missing a one-off episode, the Enterprise computer never shows any kind of sentient thought or behavior. It's main function is a search engine you can talk to.

SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Aug 25, 2020

# ? Aug 25, 2020 14:31

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Nagilum absolutely fucks

# ? Aug 25, 2020 14:45

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

Having finished the episode, I'm really shocked at how poor the arguments in Measure of a Man are and how callous the non-Enterprise crew are regarding Data's personhood.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 14:49

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

The Enterprise computer is capable of producing smarter than human sapient life on request though, figure that one out

# ? Aug 25, 2020 14:51

Angry_Ed: Mar 30, 2010; Grimey Drawer

multijoe posted:

The Enterprise computer is capable of producing smarter than human sapient life on request though, figure that one out

Also seems to know exactly what kind of table people wanted :v:

SardonicTyrant posted:

Having finished the episode, I'm really shocked at how poor the arguments in Measure of a Man are and how callous the non-Enterprise crew are regarding Data's personhood.

It's not unreasonable the idea that a scientist in pursuit of the next big thing loses sight of their humanity, even in an enlightened future.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 14:54

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

multijoe posted:

The Enterprise computer is capable of producing smarter than human sapient life on request though, figure that one out

Premade templates, perhaps? You can download some machine learning and AI programs on google, but you wouldn't say google can create an ai.

Angry_Ed posted:

It's not unreasonable the idea that a scientist in pursuit of the next big thing loses sight of their humanity, even in an enlightened future.

He's not even a good scientist, though ; Data points out multiple times that he doesn't understand some fundamental parts of the technology used to make Data, and that his plan could easily leave him permanently inoperable. Despite this, he is easily able to get order to take possession of him, because the Federation wants to create more Soong androids. This sorta gets back to what I was saying with regards to devaluing labor ; in this case, making more androids like Data, who can then be used to staff Federation ships, but are still legally property of Starfleet.

SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Aug 25, 2020

# ? Aug 25, 2020 14:56

Angry Salami: Jul 27, 2013; Don't trust the skull.

SardonicTyrant posted:

I'd argue that the Federation's weirdly regressive view of artificial life is reminiscent of capitalism's need to reduce the value of labor. It probably wasn't intended by the writers, but that's how I see it.

Picard posted:

"You're talking about slavery... that's a truth we have obscured behind a comfortable, easy euphemism. Property."

Well done, you managed to pay attention to the episode.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 16:04

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

Guinan's "I think that's a little harsh" is such an excellent line, both in-universe and out-.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 16:09

Admiralty Flag: Jun 7, 2007; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

bull3964 posted:

He filled up on books.

This has been sitting there a while but I just wanted to say both this callback and you are appreciated

# ? Aug 25, 2020 16:37

Sash!: Mar 16, 2001

I'll never agree with the idea. They're machines. Smart machines, but machines. They possess no free will, even if they can mimic free will very well.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 16:38

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

Sash! posted:

I'll never agree with the idea. They're machines. Smart machines, but machines. They possess no free will, even if they can mimic free will very well.

Humans do not possess free will either, even if they can mimic it very well

# ? Aug 25, 2020 16:41

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Mimic free will sounds like a rationalization. Sure they have free will, but the lovely kind

# ? Aug 25, 2020 16:41

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

multijoe posted:

Humans do not possess free will either, even if they can mimic it very well

I'm pretty sure the only beings with actual free will are the Q, since they aren't constrained by all that nasty 'electrochemical and electromagnetic interactions' stuff.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 17:04

Sash!: Mar 16, 2001

multijoe posted:

Humans do not possess free will either, even if they can mimic it very well

You know good and well what I mean.

No one can come up to me and plug a module into me that says "being a slave is awesome," but I can do that to any old hologram.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 17:05

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

multijoe posted:

The Enterprise computer is capable of producing smarter than human sapient life on request though, figure that one out

Reimagining that episode as Moriarty doing a Neo.

Also they definitely skip over the fact that the character is explicitly a supervillain.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 17:06

thexerox123: Aug 17, 2007

Sash! posted:

No one can come up to me and plug a module into me that says "being a slave is awesome," but I can do that to any old hologram.

Except in real life, neither of those things are possible, and in Star Trek, both are possible.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 17:12

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

Sash! posted:

You know good and well what I mean.

No one can come up to me and plug a module into me that says "being a slave is awesome," but I can do that to any old hologram.

And if you could, using some future neuroscience tech?

Alchenar posted:

Reimagining that episode as Moriarty doing a Neo.

Also they definitely skip over the fact that the character is explicitly a supervillain.

His character is a supervillain, but it's pretty explicit that he breaks out of that mold as he gains his selfhood. The only reason he threatens the Enterprise at all is because he cannot figure out why the people who gave him life refuse to allow him to experience it the same as them

# ? Aug 25, 2020 17:16

Barry Foster: Dec 24, 2007; What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)

Sash! posted:

You know good and well what I mean.

No one can come up to me and plug a module into me that says "being a slave is awesome," but I can do that to any old hologram.

lol ever heard of fox news? People are eminently programmable

# ? Aug 25, 2020 18:01

evilmiera: Dec 14, 2009; Status: Ravenously Rambunctious

Sash! posted:

You know good and well what I mean.

No one can come up to me and plug a module into me that says "being a slave is awesome," but I can do that to any old hologram.

No no, reprogramming is done with quadlight technology these days.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 19:27

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

evilmiera posted:

No no, reprogramming is done with quintlight technology these days.

fixed

# ? Aug 25, 2020 19:38

Sash!: Mar 16, 2001

Barry Foster posted:

lol ever heard of fox news? People are eminently programmable

That's equally moronic, because that's not the same at all.

Repeatedly hearing a mistruth until you think "yeah, ok" is nothing like having your code re-written on the fly.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 19:54

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Still don't understand why my players chose this deathtrap when I was perfectly happy offering them an Ambassador up front.

Canonical fates of the Oberth class:

Blasted By Doc Brown Klingon
Exposed to Vacuum by crew drunk with the gently caress Virus
Destroyed by failing to understand a gravitational anomaly
Fused into a space boulder by an experimental cloaking device

# ? Aug 25, 2020 20:02

McSpanky: Jan 16, 2005

multijoe posted:

And if you could, using some future neuroscience tech?

Future, hell

# ? Aug 25, 2020 20:24

Lemniscate Blue: Apr 21, 2006; Here we go again.

Sash! posted:

You know good and well what I mean.

No one can come up to me and plug a module into me that says "being a slave is awesome," but I can do that to any old hologram.

Can you? How? Details, please.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 21:00

Mr. Prokosch: Feb 14, 2012; Behold My Magnificence!

Owlbear Camus posted:

Still don't understand why my players chose this deathtrap when I was perfectly happy offering them an Ambassador up front.

Is it because the Oberth is a joke and they thought it would be funny? Have you decided how they get between the two hulls? Turbolift in the tiny arms? Transporters within the shield? Tiny shuttles? Spacewalk?

# ? Aug 25, 2020 21:07

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Mr. Prokosch posted:

Is it because the Oberth is a joke and they thought it would be funny? Have you decided how they get between the two hulls? Turbolift in the tiny arms? Transporters within the shield? Tiny shuttles? Spacewalk?

You have forgotten the ultimate joke answer: The Secondary Hull people are the Morlocks who are just stuck there indefinitely.

# ? Aug 25, 2020 21:10

Lemniscate Blue: Apr 21, 2006; Here we go again.

Mr. Prokosch posted:

Is it because the Oberth is a joke and they thought it would be funny? Have you decided how they get between the two hulls? Turbolift in the tiny arms? Transporters within the shield? Tiny shuttles? Spacewalk?

# ? Aug 25, 2020 21:10

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# ? May 14, 2024 23:24

Angry_Ed: Mar 30, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Owlbear Camus posted:

You have forgotten the ultimate joke answer: The Secondary Hull people are the Morlocks who are just stuck there indefinitely.

WH40k-styled gangs of engineers with conflicting ideologies and scientific methods, at least one group insistently referring to the ship's computer as "The Machine Spirit"

SardonicTyrant posted:

He's not even a good scientist, though ; Data points out multiple times that he doesn't understand some fundamental parts of the technology used to make Data, and that his plan could easily leave him permanently inoperable. Despite this, he is easily able to get order to take possession of him, because the Federation wants to create more Soong androids. This sorta gets back to what I was saying with regards to devaluing labor ; in this case, making more androids like Data, who can then be used to staff Federation ships, but are still legally property of Starfleet.

Well part of this is that Soong literally was years ahead of the curve on positronic brain tech. Data even says at the end to Maddox that his ideas show promise so it's clear that Maddox could get there eventually but Data does not wish to be subjected to potentially life-ending experimentation when Maddox doesn't have the full picture (and was also kind of a prick to Data in opposing Data going to Starfleet Academy in the first place)

As to the Federation wanting more Soong androids I just point to the fact that 95% of all the Starfleet Admirals are inherently corrupt and I can imagine Maddox finding some Admiral to just sign off on his "Data is now directly under my command deal with it" order because I imagine the appeal of less human casualties by having a ready force of androids is appealing for a lot of reasons but of course has the obvious ethical problem of enslaving sapient beings which if it's not the crux of the episode is at least one of the major points.

Of course ultimately even that wasn't enough to force Data to acquiesce since the judgement by the JAG office said he has the right to choose and no Admiral suddenly went "well actually"

Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Aug 25, 2020

# ? Aug 25, 2020 21:20

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