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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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i do not think that leftwingers have been 'allowed' much of anything, i think they've seized upon how discredited the mainstream democratic party is in certain constituencies and taken a system so used to winning my machine politics that it's got a hard time actually running for elections. a lot of these old-timer congresspeople haven't actually been in a competitive contest in forever, and in some cases they've neglected their constituencies who are generally urban poor those guys are vulnerable to being bumped off from the left; someone like pelosi, whose district is full of well-off social liberals who approve of her spectacle, is not. this is not because the democrats can 'allow' your ilhan omars a lot of stuff, it's because america does have certain democratic characteristics
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Aug 26, 2020 09:30
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Neurolimal posted:I'm pessimistic about a leftist seizure of congress; they have been permitted to take seats because they are small, inconsequential, outvoted. The moment leftist politicians make up even 1/4th of the democrats, expect many more Obama endorsements and Warren turncoats. 'Permitted'? The Dem establishment has fought (and is still fighting; ex. Pelosi endorsing Kennedy) them every step of the way, but they're often losing these fights. It's just going very slowly and there's no telling yet how big the progressive wing can get; they might remain inconsequential, but if for example AOC enters and does well in the 2024 primary things could get very interesting.
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Aug 26, 2020 09:42
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Martian posted:'Permitted'? The Dem establishment has fought (and is still fighting; ex. Pelosi endorsing Kennedy) them every step of the way, but they're often losing these fights. It's just going very slowly and there's no telling yet how big the progressive wing can get; they might remain inconsequential, but if for example AOC enters and does well in the 2024 primary things could get very interesting. They've put up some mediocre quiet opposition, to show that they disapprove without doing a trump-style "blow a foghorn about your war on leftism". The very moment left politicians threaten to be big enough to decide policy, expect them to squeeze the few popular individuals (Bill Clinton & Obama, basically) for photoshoots and endorsements for the Elliot's and Richard Neal's.
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Aug 26, 2020 10:31
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Somfin posted:If you're going to level accusations at posters including accusing them of being white, cis, hetero and wealthy Herstory Begins Now posted:They never used any of those words? Covok posted:A lot of middle class white cishet people in this thread saying it would be better in the long run if violence got worse in this country to spur direct action. I'm sorry to contradict you, but they did.
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Aug 26, 2020 10:35
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The unification of both parties into a right wing racist oligarchy is going to be worse for eveyone than anything Trump can do with four more years. All Biden will do is move today's headline issues back a few pages so liberals can ignore them. Just like they did under Obama. I don't know if a Biden loss will do anything to halt the Democrats' rightward movement, but a win definitely won't. moths fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 13:34
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Somfin posted:I'm sorry to contradict you, but they did. scrolled past that I guess, my bad. Neurolimal posted:They've put up some mediocre quiet opposition, to show that they disapprove without doing a trump-style "blow a foghorn about your war on leftism". The very moment left politicians threaten to be big enough to decide policy, expect them to squeeze the few popular individuals (Bill Clinton & Obama, basically) for photoshoots and endorsements for the Elliot's and Richard Neal's. This isn't really even close to reality. AOC unseated Pelosi's heir apparent and that was neither 'allowed' nor was the response even close to 'mediocre quiet opposition.' They were and are pissed. If AOC didn't raise 95% as much annually as Pelosi, I doubt we'd ever have seen Pelosi even minimally try to make amends. Meanwhile millions were spent this year on the primary challenger against Omar (who she beat by 15-20 iirc). Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 13:35
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Covok posted:I want more protest but trying to force it by letting things get worse is not good. Covok posted:A lot of middle class white cishet people in this thread saying it would be better in the long run if violence got worse in this country to spur direct action. Thanks for calling me cishet even after I out myself very cool and good. And my point in that post is that this violence isnt going to go away with a Biden administration. Both his record and the record of the Obama administration about this show they're not going to stem this tide You and I are going to be targets either way and thus, as i said in that post, the Biden promise of drowning with a few more gasps of air doesnt inspire me to even begin to care.
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Aug 26, 2020 13:45
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Mellow Seas posted:
Im looking forward to the upcoming post RNC pools because there is still no bump to be seen for Biden https://mobile.twitter.com/Reuters/status/1298586087338708992
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Aug 26, 2020 13:46
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Do you suppose this white nightmare will result in a bump for Trump, though? I think there just might not be post-convention bumps this time around because everyone who isn't actually headless already knows and has an opinion on Biden and Trump. Before Trump was famous for being a lovely reality star, but if you weren't into the show or NY news, it'd be easy to not really know anything about him. This round? Not possible. e:vvvv because every piece of media, social or otherwise, has had that gaping orange anus spouting poo poo for 4 years. Even Luddites know about Trump. Ershalim fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 14:03
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Why not No, i mean your argument hinges on the assumption that only new information (edit: about the candidate) creates a convention bump, but you havent shown that to be the case. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 14:10
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Ershalim posted:Do you suppose this white nightmare will result in a bump for Trump, though? I think there just might not be post-convention bumps this time around because everyone who isn't actually headless already knows and has an opinion on Biden and Trump. Before Trump was famous for being a lovely reality star, but if you weren't into the show or NY news, it'd be easy to not really know anything about him. This round? Not possible. Do you even know who the Luddites were?
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Aug 26, 2020 14:15
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Covok posted:Like did anyone consider that what you're proposing means that a lot of innocent people will have their lives ruined on the likely vain hope it will magically lead to revolution? Posts like these always implicitly treat the victims of American imperialism as worthless and expendable. There's a brief mention of kids in cages but no mention of why those kids are fleeing their countries (coups supported by democratic and republican presidents might have a little something to do with it). A mention of military rights being taken away, which again, come at the expense of murdering the gently caress out of men, women and children who have never done anything to you. A competent US government means a foreign policy dedicated to destroying millions of lives around the globe. Biden has expressed support for coups in South America, for taking a hard line in the middle East. Biden's objection with the Iran assassination wasn't that he was killed, but the way it happened. Most of America's war criminals and genocidal monsters are riding with biden, how many people are going to be murdered under a Biden foreign policy that doesn't get any pushback from the press? Joe Biden knowingly lied about WMDs to you and me so that the US would destroy a chunk of the world, what else will he lie about so people will be killed, raped and maimed for the sake of US imperialism?
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Aug 26, 2020 14:17
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Phone posted:Do you even know who the Luddites were? I was just using it in a derogatory way. Sorry if I offended any Lud-fans. My point was that the cultural awareness of Trump and Biden is at saturation, and that the conventions this year weren't likely to give anyone any news they didn't already have -- so I don't think there will be any popularity bump to either of them unlike how there normally is. If that's wrong, oh well. My bad. Ruzihm posted:No, i mean your argument hinges on the assumption that only new information creates a convention bump, but you havent shown that to be the case. That's an interesting thought. What would it be other than novelty that gets people to swing approval ratings? Is the convention bump from like a temporary solidarity because people like what's being said? I honestly don't know where it comes from, I was just guessing. If it's good feelings, why didn't Biden get a bump? I mean, I know here the DNC message wasn't popular, but wasn't it generally well-liked by the average dem? Ershalim fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 14:20
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Ershalim posted:That's an interesting thought. What would it be other than novelty that gets people to swing approval ratings? Is the convention bump from like a temporary solidarity because people like what's being said? I honestly don't know where it comes from, I was just guessing. If it's good feelings, why didn't Biden get a bump? I mean, I know here the DNC message wasn't popular, but wasn't it generally well-liked by the average dem?
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Aug 26, 2020 14:32
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I sigh, unsheathe my posting katana, and prepare to once again defend the luddites online.
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Aug 26, 2020 14:36
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Thanks for calling me cishet even after I out myself very cool and good. Alright that was lovely of me. My first post was a lovely vague call out. I should have read your post all the way through before including it in my follow-up. I am very sorry about this. I apologize for my negligence. I was a dick. You don’t have to accept my apology. I understand that was really lovely and you have no obligation to forgive me just because I apologized. Covok fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 14:40
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negativeneil posted:Good job taking what Richard Spencer says at face value. He's been pretty consistent about his position vis a vis Trump/Biden for a while now, apparently. This doesn't change the fact that it's possible he's just doing a long(er) con, but that it's actually hard for many of us to tell for certain is pretty telling. https://twitter.com/Rich_Penney/status/1298315812953096192
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Aug 26, 2020 15:09
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Famethrowa posted:I'm just baffled by the optimism amidst the DNC hosting two Republicans (one a prolife monster the other a war criminal) at their convention. Fwiw my big push is state-convention-related (because the DNC and the state party are, mostly, ironically easier to target than county chairs lol; at-large all-democrats-vote elections are rougher than only-giant-politics-nerds-who-sign-up-vote elections, and also more vulnerable to money) and i maintain we can still do real damage to the conservative hold on the DNC in 2024. When I'm being particularly optimistic I frame it as a full takeover, which would be nice but is probably unlikely, but on the flip side we can infer from the way votes have gone that not all DNC incumbents are bad in the first place, just a substantial majority. Even just expanding the leftist presence on the DNC from 15-20% or so (iirc) to 40% would be, in the words of the next president of the United States, a Big loving Deal. Flipping 10% of squishy DNCers on some issues is easier than flipping 30%. Another chunk of my optimism as far as this being a viable path for huge dorks like me to make an outsized dent is basically anecdotal - I can state with a very high degree of confidence that The Establishment in my county party and a fairly high degree of confidence that The Establishment in my senatedistrict party is not conspiring specifically against The Left, and particularly not on any sort of conscious ideological grounds. There's still some level of establishment sticktogetherness, but in their heads it's more about valuing Putting In The Time (which favors olds, well-offs, and establishmentarians, natch) and they like to think they encourage new involvement and youth involvement. For all that the platform of a state party is much more worthless than the questionably-worthful national platform, the 2020 Texas convention has me pretty hopeful about a leftward swing in the Texas Democrats - more than one caucus experienced a significant leadership change (and caucus leadership does matter a bit, they have some resources, some endorsement punch, and some control over one DNC slot each except for the caucuses that don't get one), the platform was pretty darn progressive, and scuttlebutt is that Dennis loving Speight was reelected to his DNC at-large slot by a much smaller margin than anyone expected. If this is what we can do with no discernably organized leftist convention push in Texas, we've got a pretty good shot at eating the elected DNC slots in 2024 and also at seizing the rules-reins in 2022 for the 2024 primary and such. in my more anxious moments i theorize that red and redpurple areas are actually easier to launch a leftist insurgency in than blue areas precisely because the stakes for control of the local/state party are pettier, but even if true there's a lot of low-hanging fruit out there Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 15:30
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For what it’s worth, while I’ve articulated the “Biden will be worse than Trump in the long run” point a few times ITT, I’ve come to believe that it just doesn’t matter in terms of the left’s fate. The Democrats are efficient at keeping leftists out of elected office, but holding elected office right now doesn’t mean much when both parties are promising that nothing is going to change—and it’ll get vetoed if they even try. And because nothing will meaningfully change in a country that’s objectively awful to live in, the material conditions that are pushing people left aren’t going to change either. Will liberal Biden voters tune out and go to brunch? Absolutely. But they’re not exactly helping things by being tuned in right now; maybe there’s value in showcasing the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the establishment and their backers. GreyjoyBastard posted:Fwiw my big push is state-convention-related (because the DNC and the state party are, mostly, ironically easier to target than county chairs lol; at-large all-democrats-vote elections are rougher than only-giant-politics-nerds-who-sign-up-vote elections, and also more vulnerable to money) and i maintain we can still do real damage to the conservative hold on the DNC in 2024. I still don’t quite understand why you think the Democrats at any level would just let the left do this. It’s the fundamental flaw in the worldview of so many “progressives,” this idea that we can play by the rules and win at the game the aristocracy set up. Hopefully you prove me wrong and the Greyjoy machine takes over Texas and you turn into some kind of less problematic Huey Long or something, but I’ve grown incredibly cynical about the prospect of transforming the Dems.
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Aug 26, 2020 15:59
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Timeless Appeal posted:Here's the section from his site: Thanks for finding this, by the way. I read over it and this seems to be the most relevant passage (ie: what would affect the most people): quote:The Biden Plan will equalize benefits across the income scale, so that low- and middle-income workers will also get a tax break when they put money away for retirement. Which looks like it means you can deduct a portion of your differed compensation? Money put into an IRA? Some or all of it? It's kind of a vague outline, and young people have much more pressing concerns than retirement. But it's not "he's going to gently caress with your retirement," so that's something.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:00
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Covok posted:Alright that was lovely of me. My first post was a lovely vague call out. I should have read your post all the way through before including it in my follow-up. Yes reading posts and ideas all the way through might be a good idea before replying.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:05
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moths posted:Thanks for finding this, by the way. I read over it and this seems to be the most relevant passage (ie: what would affect the most people): I wonder what happens for people who are contributing to existing Roth IRAs and Roth 401k. Those people are already paying the taxes up front in order to avoid the taxes at the back end. If he changes it so that they have to pay taxes on disbursements during retirement then they get really screwed.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:08
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moths posted:Thanks for finding this, by the way. I read over it and this seems to be the most relevant passage (ie: what would affect the most people): No. The issue is this: Currently, money you put in your traditional IRA or 401k is "tax free," because it will be taxed later. This means that the portion of your income that gets put away is not taxed. So if you make 100k, but 10k out of those 100k is deposited into an 401k, that means that you are paying taxes on 90k of your income even as your income is 100k. But for people with low incomes, their effective federal tax rate is already zero, so they get no deduction from putting money in a 401k. Their income tax liability is 0 either way. The Biden plan makes it so that instead of a tax deduction (which means that it can't go below 0), it becomes a tax credit (so you get money even if your income tax rate is 0). It is an improvement, but at the same time an improvement that is unlikely to make much of a difference overall. The reason someone making 15k a year isn't putting money away for retirement isn't because it is a suboptimal tax strategy. Nitrousoxide posted:I wonder what happens for people who are contributing to existing Roth IRAs and Roth 401k. Those people are already paying the taxes up front in order to avoid the taxes at the back end. If he changes it so that they have to pay taxes on disbursements during retirement then they get really screwed. Those are untouched, as far as I know.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:14
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Nitrousoxide posted:I wonder what happens for people who are contributing to existing Roth IRAs and Roth 401k. Those people are already paying the taxes up front in order to avoid the taxes at the back end. If he changes it so that they have to pay taxes on disbursements during retirement then they get really screwed. IMO, messing with retirement like this will be as politically treacherous as introducing the ACA, at which point youre doing something so hard you might as well introduce medicare for all, or nationalize retirement. Either way, folks are going to get whipped up in a frenzy about how Biden is taking all of your retirement money, just like death panels.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:15
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joepinetree posted:No. The issue is this: Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 16:23
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah, while it's using language of equality and leveling the playing field--and It genuinely would be a net positive--it seems likes its goal is more around incentivizing poorer folks putting money away. It's not bad in of itself, but I'm suspicious of how effective it would be. Yeah. Again, it is not bad per se. But, like a lot of these hyper targeted benefits, I suspect that the main beneficiaries would be the temporarily poor children of middle and upper classes. People who have access to the tax planning required to maximize the benefit and who can afford to set aside part of their income right now.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:37
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joepinetree posted:. Their income tax liability is 0 either way. The Biden plan makes it so that instead of a tax deduction (which means that it can't go below 0), it becomes a tax credit (so you get money even if your income tax rate is 0). That makes sense, I was reading credit and deduction interchangeable and yeah that's wrong. This couldn't have been written with anyone earning under $30k in mind. I agree that there's absolutely no way a struggling person will see the credit (and nebulous future money) as a priority over their immediate needs.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:38
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The 401k stuff is DemPolicy.txt. A lot of fiddling around the edges of policy and making bureaucratic tweaks that maybe have a net benefit overall, but it's confusing, easily miscommunicated, and it's not clear that the people you're seeking to help will actually see any real benefit. Even if they do, it will be a benefit they likely won't understand the full impact of (and that's if they even realize they're receiving a benefit in the first place - Americans aren't known for their deep understanding of their personal tax liability).
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Aug 26, 2020 17:25
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negativeneil posted:kinda cherry picking my argument here. I'm not saying Biden represents progress, I'm saying there is a lot of progress than can happen under Biden in the form of moving the party left. Actually reforming the Democratic Party will take a generation at least. Like do you think the GOP became fascist overnight? This poo poo has been building steadily for decades. Focusing everything on the Presidency is ignoring almost every possible avenue to reforming our political system. How does the DNC and Dem elites crushing the leftist 40 percent of the party then winning a presidential election move the party to the left? The squad became a thing under Trump.
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Aug 26, 2020 17:35
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So if Biden wins the Presidency you're just going to stop voting for progressives and sending them contributions?
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Aug 26, 2020 17:49
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Shageletic posted:How does the DNC and Dem elites crushing the leftist 40 percent of the party then winning a presidential election move the party to the left? How do you figure that leftists are 40% of dems?
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Aug 26, 2020 17:50
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Herstory Begins Now posted:How do you figure that leftists are 40% of dems? High figure of ppl who voted Bernie. negativeneil posted:So if Biden wins the Presidency you're just going to stop voting for progressives and sending them contributions? I'm saying that, for me, it doesn't matter who's president when it comes to voting in progressives. But I'd argue that a lot of the energy present in the community for "leftist" positions (labor/M4all/anti-corruption/rent relief/student relief) will dissapate if/when Biden becomes president. I saw that first hand in 08-12.
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Aug 26, 2020 17:53
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Terror Sweat posted:Most of America's war criminals and genocidal monsters are riding with biden, how many people are going to be murdered under a Biden foreign policy that doesn't get any pushback from the press? Joe Biden knowingly lied about WMDs to you and me so that the US would destroy a chunk of the world, what else will he lie about so people will be killed, raped and maimed for the sake of US imperialism? At the moment, the alternative seems to be re-electing a literal fascist psychopath who is extremely likely to kill, rape, and/or maim us. You know, accelerationist arguments always remind me of those conservative editorials about how poor people just need to spend less money. Can’t the ignorant masses see that if they just accept a decade or so of grinding misery, they’ll be able to bootstrap themselves into a better world? Apparently they can’t — so we, the enlightened few, will just have to take the choice away from them. The ones who survive will thank us.
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Aug 26, 2020 17:55
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DSPaul posted:At the moment, the alternative seems to be re-electing a literal fascist psychopath who is extremely likely to kill, rape, and/or maim us. this is explicitly the Joe Biden policy on what should be done to migrant children, op if you dance well enough for your supper, we might let some of you out of the camps!
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Aug 26, 2020 17:57
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lol https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1298586087338708992
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Aug 26, 2020 18:01
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DSPaul posted:At the moment, the alternative seems to be re-electing a literal fascist psychopath who is extremely likely to kill, rape, and/or maim us. And the alternative to this is electing someone who will at BEST make vague overtures towards improving the lives of the most at-risk and downtrodden (while still doing nothing to meaningfully impact them) and at the very least will most likely still grease the gears that continue to grind them down into paste in order to make economy number get bigger. This poo poo has been hashed out NUMEROUS times already in this thread and others, and I’m happy to eat a probe to at least point out that you (and myself for that matter) aren’t bringing any sort of fresh perspective to this discussion.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:04
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Durr Kommissar posted:And the alternative to this is electing someone who will at BEST make vague overtures towards improving the lives of the most at-risk and downtrodden (while still doing nothing to meaningfully impact them) and at the very least will most likely still grease the gears that continue to grind them down into paste in order to make economy number get bigger. This poo poo has been hashed out NUMEROUS times already in this thread and others, and I’m happy to eat a probe to at least point out that you (and myself for that matter) aren’t bringing any sort of fresh perspective to this discussion. Maybe because people aren't interested in being pawns in a game of political chess and rather live, even briefly, in a slightly better hell? Also, this ALL assumes all progressive ideals dead stops if things get better. It's not like good things EVER happened when everything wasn't burning down.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:06
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Covok posted:Maybe because people aren't interested in being pawns in a game of political chess and rather live, even briefly, in a slightly better hell? Could you explain any of this? It's just generalized cliches.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:11
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Covok posted:Maybe because people aren't interested in being pawns in a game of political chess and rather live, even briefly, in a slightly better hell? that's nice. Joe Biden told you that you shouldn't worry about coronavirus, and that it was safe to go out and vote for him. not only are you a pawn in a political game of chess, you're a pawn whose owner has already written you off.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:14
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papa horny michael posted:Could you explain any of this? It's just generalized cliches. Just that arguing we should let things get worse on the hope it gets much better later is asking a lot of people. Trump will do a lot of harm in office. He already has. Someone rallied by Trump just shot and killed protestors last night. The argument it would be better if Biden lost ignores the reality of all the people hurt in the interim. It's not like we still can't make things better if the world isn't burning down.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:14
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