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OwlFancier posted:If I was going to think of a new right wing it would not be through the vehicle of qanon because it appeals primarily to old conservatives, it's full of their values and ways of thinking and communicating, it's a political movement of deep fried facebook boomer even if it has other adherents. The younger people susceptible to qanon seem mostly interested in the part where the rich are pedophiles who exploit the vulnerable and throw them away, which feels ok to me because rich people are pedophiles who exploit the vulnerable and throw them away. The signifiers of qanon they're most interested in are the "clues" that rich old men are confessing how they rape kids, like the red shoes thing or photos of Epstein and Clinton hanging out. I feel like there's a left-wing radicalization pipeline that could work just as well as the right-wing one with that as a starting point, because they're people who are just starting to wake up to how the world doesn't feel right and to how it seems like the system is built to serve them up a raw deal while the powerful can do anything. And that's all essentially true, but qanon stuff is the closest they can come to articulating their sense of what the world is like--there's a lot of overlap with the "Epstein didn't kill himself" memes from last year. It's white supremacy and entitlement that ensure old people go right instead of left, and why they end up having to invent poo poo like qanon to explain why their lives keep getting worse. It seems easier for younger white people to wake up to the systemic factors at play.
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Sep 3, 2020 20:32
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:The younger people susceptible to qanon seem mostly interested in the part where the rich are pedophiles who exploit the vulnerable and throw them away, which feels ok to me because rich people are pedophiles who exploit the vulnerable and throw them away. The signifiers of qanon they're most interested in are the "clues" that rich old men are confessing how they rape kids, like the red shoes thing or photos of Epstein and Clinton hanging out. I feel like there's a left-wing radicalization pipeline that could work just as well as the right-wing one with that as a starting point, because they're people who are just starting to wake up to how the world doesn't feel right and to how it seems like the system is built to serve them up a raw deal while the powerful can do anything. And that's all essentially true, but qanon stuff is the closest they can come to articulating their sense of what the world is like--there's a lot of overlap with the "Epstein didn't kill himself" memes from last year. Maybe, we can but hope. I would certainly venture that being vocal about the epstein poo poo as a leftist is a good thing because it is, as you say, a very good example of how the rich literally gently caress everyone else enabled entirely by their class power. It's hard for me to imagine that qanon is the first anybody would have heard of that because literally everyone thinks epstein was murdered to cover it up, it's not a uniquely qanon thing and their take on it is exceptionally weird if you're not already necking the right wing juice. Because that's the other thing, a virulent, knee jerk rejection of any sort of left wing narrative seems very integral to the qanon reading, because the left wing explanations are far easier.
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Sep 3, 2020 20:35
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OwlFancier posted:If I was going to think of a new right wing it would not be through the vehicle of qanon because it appeals primarily to old conservatives, it's full of their values and ways of thinking and communicating, it's a political movement of deep fried facebook boomer even if it has other adherents. Hatred of elites and pedophiles is pretty hot right now, #MeToo and yeah the Epstein stuff. Frustration over covid restrictions also. But I can't disagree that current QAnon memes have sensibilities appealing more to older folks.
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Sep 3, 2020 20:51
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In the UK I think it has links to the existing far right fash who make it their day jobs to go up and down the country moaning about "muslim grooming gangs" re: large scale child abuse that's been happening in a few UK towns and cities. As far as I know the main gist of it is that the cops are dirty as gently caress and basically not doing their jobs which is why it gets that bad and also the groups who get nicked for it break along ethnic lines a lot, though that's just how a lot of the UK is generally so it'd be weird if they didn't. There's majority white groups that have done the same thing yet weirdly the fash brigade don't bring them up.
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Sep 3, 2020 20:56
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Mad Hamish posted:I just want to know if the flat earthers have an idea about what's on the reverse side of the flat earth. There is no "other side". Space, in the flat earth mythos, does not exist.
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Sep 3, 2020 21:12
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indiscriminately posted:(All of this happening organically/opportunistically rather than as a grand, planned long-running conspiracy. Which, to me, is no less scary- major political parties are geopolitical entities, which from a distance can be viewed as vast, super-intelligent amoral organisms. Much more intimidating to me than Roger Stone & Steve Bannon shaking hands or some Illuminati business.) How do you think Pizzagate happened? Captain Monkey posted:But influence isn't one Dark Lord sitting behind the scenes, pulling strings for his shadowy agenda. It's a bunch of people all doing things in service to personal goals that tend to align in a certain way. That is organic, in this context, but it's also influence, just not in the way you're saying it. How would you describe scientology? quote:It isn't a nefarious far-reaching conspiracy. How would you describe the Business Plot? VitalSigns posted:But all the meddling they're claiming Putin is doing now is all 100% legal for American oligarchs and fascists to do How would you describe Russian promotion of the anti-lock down protests? quote:The squad's victory was the election of some congresswoman, you're pitching a 'singular intelligence' that doesn't exist Sorry, do you understand the work of the Justice Democrats and the Sunrise Movement or not? Can anyone else tag in here and explain it to them please. Captain Monkey posted:I think my aggravation at string-and-corkboard conspiracy theories is that it completely ignores the actual, real, systemic issues that we need to face and change if we ever want our nation to grow past the point its at. The problems we're seeing cannot be easily laid at the feet of some evil genius, but rather they stem from a myriad of problems and issues that have existed in our society since the beginning. To devolve into conspiracy thinking and chasing ghosts like an episode of 24 is to give up any chance of ever actually affecting meaningful change, Couldn't your "myriad of problems" be described as "string-and corkboard"? Either way, that is emphatically not what I am doing. I am trying to make sure we look at it all the factors at play. While you and many others seem insistent that we not look at this one part, which is supposed to be the subject of this thread. That's it.
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Sep 4, 2020 01:24
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Bucky, it's more respectful to other people if you say what you mean rather than posing questions and asking them to work out the subtext themselves. If you say what you mean then you're demonstrating that you yourself have done the work to figure out what you mean and are committing to it by having made it concrete. You don't have to do this but it's a courtesy that other people appreciate and it keeps the discussion better in focus.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:16
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thanks, but as long as posts like this:JohnLovely posted:you bad faith lying dogshit motherfucker are going without even acknowledgement, let alone a probation, I don't think I am the one who needs lecturing about courtesy and respect. You made a statement, and I am politely engaging with that. I am not doing it by putting a strawman's words in your mouth to misrepresent you, which is what people have consistently done to me. Again, that is disrespectful. I am asking a very simple and direct question. How do you think Pizzagate happened?
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Sep 4, 2020 02:42
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1. It's not a simple and direct question though, even though it can be posed simply. It's better you say your point than I misrepresent your point, right? 2. What does what that other guy said have to do with me though? He wasn't courteous or respectful, agreed. Report his post and ignore him. 3. Not lecturing you, trying to be helpful. I want you to enjoy participating in the thread.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:06
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Bucky Fullminster posted:thanks, but as long as posts like this: Bucks, that was 4 days ago and the majority of people are trying to talk you down reasonably.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:09
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indiscriminately posted:1. It's not a simple and direct question though, even though it can be posed simply. It's better you say your point than I misrepresent your point, right? "My point" isn't the issue here, we're dealing with yours for a minute. You said "All of this happening organically/opportunistically rather than as a grand, planned long-running conspiracy. Which, to me, is no less scary- major political parties are geopolitical entities, which from a distance can be viewed as vast, super-intelligent amoral organisms. Much more intimidating to me than Roger Stone & Steve Bannon shaking hands or some Illuminati business." So, in light of that, I am asking you (for the third time now) to explain how you think something like Pizzagate happened. It's something I'm interested in and I would like your thoughts. The answer might not be simple, but it's definitely a direct question, and I think you can give it a shot. I've answered basically every question that's been directed my way. If I was going to speculate, I'd say it's a question you are reluctant to engage with, because the answer seems to contradict your assertion that "Roger Stone and Steve Bannon [more alex jones in this case, but bannon obviously wasn't far away] did not shake hands as part of a grand, planned, long-running conspiracy". And this group seems to be actively hostile to that suggestion, and people unpleasantly pile on to those who suggest it. So the questions keep getting dodged. Look, captain monkey just did it too. Instead of answering how they would describe Scientology or the Business Plot or Russian Interference, they deftly deflected away to talk about something else, because it turns out that sometimes there actually is a "Dark Lord sitting behind the scenes, pulling strings for his shadowy agenda", and that undermines their argument that such a concept is preposterous.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:59
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If you like I can answer by saying that a bunch of republicans and general nutters really liked the satanic panic and wanted to reboot it for 2016 and while it recieved poor critical reception it actually did really well on rotten tomatoes and now is getting its own expanded universe and crossovers with other big conspiracy theories.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:04
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You have to admit that they're all basically retreads of the original, though. The czar really knew what he was doing with the protocols of the elders of zion.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:12
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OwlFancier posted:If you like I can answer by saying that a bunch of republicans and general nutters really liked the satanic panic and wanted to reboot it for 2016 and while it recieved poor critical reception it actually did really well on rotten tomatoes and now is getting its own expanded universe and crossovers with other big conspiracy theories. Cool, can you give us any names and the tools they used? Did anyone create a character on 4Chan to help plant or fertilise seeds?
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Sep 4, 2020 04:12
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Yeah I'm a scrub I never saw the original and I only read about the 80's remake.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:13
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:You have to admit that they're all basically retreads of the original, though. The czar really knew what he was doing with the protocols of the elders of zion. If we're talking the real original I think we have to go back to Jacob Brafman.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:16
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Cool, can you give us any names and the tools they used? Did anyone create a character on 4Chan to help plant or fertilise seeds? No? Like my consistent position is it doesn't really matter who did what exactly. That kind of idea has been rattling around for ages, people just really seem to loving like it for some weird reason. There's like this constant... potential for some big moral war poo poo in a lot of people's psyche, I don't know what causes it because I've never really had it, probably cos I wasn't raised religious or anything, I've never even really liked it in fantasy to be honest? Like cool fantasy wars can be fun but they're fun because they're exciting and swashbuckly not because you're really rooting for one side or the other, the morality element is really more of a handwave to justify why you don't have to think about the geopolitics that lead to the heroic deeds and big swordfights etc. It doesn't even really seem to manifest in a left wing form, like yeah I'm angry about politics and I think there's moral arguments you can make but if we get down to it I think capitalism is in the way of me having a stable home and enough money to take up woodwork, which is what I want to actually do with my life. For these people it seems like the moral crusade is what they want to do with their life, that it is their hobby. Maybe that's why the right like it so much? I dunno, like I said I don't really understand how it feels to like their poo poo because I never have, but I can certainly observe that they do go really nuts for that sort of thing. It's not some weird memetic trigger planted there by some nefarious mastermind because they've been going on in one form or another for centuries, possibly millenia? It just seems to be a thing a lot of people are really into. Like someone comes out with that idea and this big mass of people all primed and ready to believe something like that just go hog wild on it. It doesn't need an intelligence behind it and critically, it can't be controlled, like there just isn't a way you can control or steer that kind of mass moral hysteria. You can let it direct you which is what a lot of politicians have done, historically, but that puts right wing politics subordinate to this repeating cycle of moralistic frenzy, not the other way around as you would put it. And looking at it that way it isn't some secretive organization of fascist masterminds doing it, it's the base impulse that produces things like fascism, like witchcraft panics, like jingoism and xenophobia, like white supremacy, like crime panics, it's that tendency asserting itself over both politicians and normal people, and the question becomes why do people think like that? Not "who specifically is involved in which role at this exact time" because the latter isn't useful, if you get rid of one another will appear, because they are both products of a material condition, some condition that makes people think this way. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 04:26
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Bucky Fullminster posted:I am asking a very simple and direct question. How do you think Pizzagate happened? I mean... have you considered the opposite? You can find the germ of this idea in books like "Nixonland" and "What's the Matter with Kansas?". At one point it was all a conspiracy, sure. People making things up to get into power and putting them out there so that other people would believe them. You might say it was most recently ignited by Joe McCarthy and fanned into a flame by Nixon, who resented his own lack of qualifications, but there's always been scuttlebutt. The thing is that all Nixon had was scuttlebutt, but nobody ever wanted to admit it, and when you keep something going for a generation there are people who grow up and that's all they have. No one ever let them in on it. And now they're in power, because they say it better and more genuinely than the people who were only pretending. The interests of Pizzagate and the Trump administration align, but is it because the Pizzagate people are being influenced by the Trump administration? Or is it because the Pizzagate people became the Trump administration?
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Sep 4, 2020 04:30
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Bucky Fullminster posted:If I was going to speculate, I'd say it's a question you are reluctant to engage with, because the answer seems to contradict your assertion that "Roger Stone and Steve Bannon [more alex jones in this case, but bannon obviously wasn't far away] did not shake hands as part of a grand, planned, long-running conspiracy". And this group seems to be actively hostile to that suggestion, and people unpleasantly pile on to those who suggest it. So the questions keep getting dodged. I think you misunderstand what I mean about the superintelligent amoral organism. I'm sure individual villains of the style of Steve Bannon / Roger Stone / Alex Jones are shaking hands and teaming up to cause trouble. Whether they are names you recognize or not. But that's only a little scary to me, because those guys are just dudes. What's scary to me is the greater conceptual entity of which they are dumb appendages. These guys are like worker bees, drones in the self-perpetuating hive that is the actual scary thing. (Speaking metaphorically here, to be clear.) This is why it's helpful you say what you mean. You find that people kinda agree with you even if they're looking at things from a perspective other than your own.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:46
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OwlFancier posted:No? Like my consistent position is it doesn't really matter who did what exactly. That kind of idea has been rattling around for ages, people just really seem to loving like it for some weird reason. There's like this constant... potential for some big moral war poo poo in a lot of people's psyche, I don't know what causes it because I've never really had it, probably cos I wasn't raised religious or anything, I've never even really liked it in fantasy to be honest? Like cool fantasy wars can be fun but they're fun because they're exciting and swashbuckly not because you're really rooting for one side or the other, the morality element is really more of a handwave to justify why you don't have to think about the geopolitics that lead to the heroic deeds and big swordfights etc. It doesn't even really seem to manifest in a left wing form, like yeah I'm angry about politics and I think there's moral arguments you can make but if we get down to it I think capitalism is in the way of me having a stable home and enough money to take up woodwork, which is what I want to actually do with my life. For these people it seems like the moral crusade is what they want to do with their life, that it is their hobby. Fascinating. Can I just say that if there's ever a serial killer on the loose I definitely don't want Owfancier anywhere near the investigation or prosecution of the suspect. Also was your no directed at the first question, second question, or both? We know that people think like that. The point is that can be exploited, and understanding who how and why is absolutley important Glazius posted:I mean... have you considered the opposite? You can find the germ of this idea in books like "Nixonland" and "What's the Matter with Kansas?". hey look at that another one who doesn't answer the question.
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Sep 4, 2020 04:54
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Fascinating. Like, do you genuinely think there is no difference between an individual serial killer and a society wide phenomenon that predates anybody alive today and recurs over and over with different people merely filling roles? In terms of response, or mechanism of action?
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Sep 4, 2020 05:24
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:There is no "other side". Space, in the flat earth mythos, does not exist. Yeah, this makes sense. It's where they get to aquifer depletion and the finite nature of resources that they get absolutely nuts. If you ever get to "you can't know the mind of God" you've hit the "gently caress you" point. Bucky Fullminster posted:If we're talking the real original I think we have to go back to Jacob Brafman. Feels like this started at "Carthago delenda est."
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Sep 4, 2020 05:34
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Bucky Fullminster posted:hey look at that another one who doesn't answer the question. Okay, let me try again. Pizzagate is scuttlebutt. It's whispers about how rich people in power are getting away with everything because the world is unfair because they made it that way. And, yes, "if everyone in power only listened to and followed the word of God there need not be any poor among us, but the poor will be with us always". Though it doesn't feel good to think like that. It doesn't feel good to feel failed. It feels good to blame someone, to feel better than someone even when you're worse off. So, miserable people are quick to believe whispers about people in power, and the more terrible the whispers are the more likely they are to believe them. The more terrible the whispers are, the more likely it is that the miserable things in your own life are a small injustice that needs to be corrected instead of a horrendous problem that people can work on fixing for their whole lives and barely make a dent. They don't even have to be whispers about the people in power! They can be whispers about people just like you, suffering just like you, but those other people are suffering justly, and surely that means there will be justice in the world again. This is also useful to the people in power, not even on the level of conscious decision but as a recognized pattern, a part of the culture they grew up with - the more terrible the whispers are, the better the miserable people feel when the people the whispers are about suffer, because surely, it means justice is coming and they won't get burned again. Donald Trump himself has done this repeatedly! Started a business, declared bankruptcy, and then refused to pay any of the people who worked for him what they were owed because surely it must have been their fault the business failed. Donald Trump never takes responsibility for anything. Does that mean, from a logical perspective, that Donald Trump must believe that some family window-washing firm living month-to-month is more responsible for the success or failure of the fabulous Trump Casino Atlantic City than Donald Trump himself? Yes! But Donald Trump doesn't care about logic as long as he's happy, and since "happy" isn't an option, "less miserable" will have to do. Someone started Pizzagate. Someone made the first post and maybe tried to keep it going. But why does it have to be a person in power? Why can't it be a miserable person who just wanted to feel better about themselves, no matter the cost? The problem with trying to line something in Pizzagate up with something in the Trump administration is that there isn't anything in Pizzagate that must have come from the Trump administration, that miserable people couldn't think of on their own, because the Republican party in general and the Trump administration in particular have become just a body of miserable people, convinced the world is one injustice away from glory, if only they can find it. That's what you have to deal with. The vast body of human misery in its entirety, set aflame with false righteousness. Yes, in the future a question you need to ask and find accountable answers for is why it happened. But right now? If you walk up to the fire and say "Wait! Stop! This is all PG&E's fault! You started near an old power line of theirs that they never replaced, and they took the money we paid them to make it safer and gave it to their executives to buy a yacht for their yacht!" the fire doesn't go "oh, thank goodness, I understand now" and fade away. You have to put the fire out. And even if you hold PG&E to account, there's still lightning. There are still stray sparks. There won't stop being disastrous fires until we can clean away all the stuff that's burning so badly. It's a horrendous problem that people can work on fixing for their whole lives and barely make a dent, and thank you for your service. Look, I'll prove it to you. Kitty Genovese's neighbors didn't watch from their safe windows and walls down on the entrance door where Kitty Genovese screamed for help as a man with a knife assaulted and raped her. They raised a riot, and Kitty Genovese's attacker turned and ran, and Kitty Genovese came inside, and Kitty Genovese's neighbors went back to their lives. And then, moments later, Kitty Genovese screamed for help from the stairwell. The man with the knife broke in the back door to the building and assaulted her again, and Kitty Genovese's neighbors weren't safe anymore. What did they do then? Well, they didn't call 911. They couldn't. The 911 emergency line didn't exist yet, people had to call their local police station, and Kitty Genovese's neighbors weren't rooted in the neighborhood - they were poor, temporary renters just like she was. Did all of them have a working phone? Did all of them know the number to the closest police station? They didn't call an ambulance. They couldn't. Ambulance services as they are now didn't exist yet, people whose only job was to take the sick and injured to hospitals. If you wanted that, you called the police or perhaps the fire department, but see above. Some of Kitty Genovese's neighbors worked up their courage and climbed out their windows and around the building, because the hallways weren't safe, trying to put together the pieces of who had a phone and who knew what number to call. Some of Kitty Genovese's neighbors worked up their courage and went out into the hallways, even though it wasn't safe, and they were with Kitty Genovese until help finally came. But it didn't come in time. For a lot of people back then, help didn't come in time. And people got sick of it and worked to change it. The 911 emergency line came out of people who didn't get help in time because nobody knew how, and now all you have to know is three numbers and you can get in touch with somebody whose job it is to know how. The ambulance service came out of people who the cops didn't come to help in time, and now there are people whose job it is to get you to the hospital. Kitty Genovese has been dead for 55 years now. How many people "know what Kitty Genovese's neighbors did" right now, with the same iron certainty that some people "know Comet Ping Pong Pizza has a basement and Hillary Clinton ate a child's face there"? Is there really a conspiracy that's been focusing on maligning a dead girl's neighbors for two generations to its own unknowable end? Or is it just human misery, burning and burning? "If we lived back in the times of the prophets, surely we would not have shed their blood." Glazius fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 06:40
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People have been saying that to Bucky since they first kramered into the thread. When pushed on their actual point they equivocate, shift goal posts, and try to turn the argument back on the person doubting them instead of ever answering. They both want to lead you to the idea that there’s some specific person/group leading qanon, etc. around but also are still angry posting that I called it a shadowy figure pulling the strings. They’re bringing up weak slams from other goons posted 4 or 5 days ago to prove how put upon they are. There’s a reason 85% of the thread is people telling them to log off and go outside for a couple hours.
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Sep 4, 2020 07:20
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It's an interesting real-time demonstration of how people fall into this insane conspiracy stuff, at least.
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Sep 4, 2020 07:31
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packetmantis posted:It's an interesting real-time demonstration of how people fall into this insane conspiracy stuff, at least. It is. Also, Glazius I didn’t mean to sound dismissive with my post. That was eloquent and a good, hopeful read. Thanks for posting it.
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Sep 4, 2020 07:39
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OwlFancier posted:Like, do you genuinely think there is no difference between an individual serial killer and a society wide phenomenon that predates anybody alive today and recurs over and over with different people merely filling roles? In terms of response, or mechanism of action? Imagine a bunch of people die in a town. Owlfancier believes that death is perfectly natural, and murders have been happening for millennia, and what we need to do is look at the underlying sociological phenomena that led to death and/or homicide. Which is all absolutely true. No argument there. But there does seem to be a pattern. Arguably even a pretty clear one. Certainly a means and a motive, at least. Some people notice a connection between the way certain deaths happen, especially in people who would not have otherwise been naturally predisposed to supporting Trump I mean dying. So they start to suggest that there might actually be some kind of design to it, and perhaps that should be investigated. Owlfancier insists that such an exercise is pointless and futile and stupidly conspiratorial. There is no connection, and even if there is, it literally doesn't matter. Let's say we do figure out who this murderer is, there'll still be other murders, so who cares? packetmantis posted:It's an interesting real-time demonstration of how people fall into this insane conspiracy stuff, at least. You seem to be using "conspiracy" as short hand for "something which is by definition not true". I hope you can see how that does not constitute an argument in this context. Glazius posted:Okay, let me try again. Pizzagate is scuttlebutt. It's whispers about how rich people in power are getting away with everything because the world is unfair because they made it that way. And, yes, "if everyone in power only listened to and followed the word of God there need not be any poor among us, but the poor will be with us always". It isn't though. It is very specifically that Clinton's campaign manager is trafficking and torturing children, and it emerged one week before the election. On the very day that a tape of Trump bragging about sexual assault was released. To answer your question, as I do, yes, of course I have considered the opposite. That it was a "miserable person who just wanted to feel better about themselves". I could believe that Stone's professional dedication to the task was matched by a member of the public. I have not been able to reconcile that with the evidence that it was someone who knew that more leaks were coming, and was in on the strategy of using "code words" to make them sinister. My very first post in this thread was "who is Q?" And the question was met with a bafflement which has not relented. What do you mean who? We're just here to point and laugh. There is no orchestration. You lunatic. Go outside. For going on 3 years people have been patiently explaining that this is more sophisticated and sinister than it appears. And in spite of its obvious absurdity it's still here and stronger than ever. It's like trying to explain the behaviour of scientologists without L Ron Hubbard. That is an overly simplistic analogy, it is not "one person on a boat". But people are literally being brainwashed, it's destroying families, energising voters, and it is significantly increasing the level of support for a fascist candidate and their chances of reelection. If I sound crazy or annoying, fine, whatever, that’s my cross to bear and ya’ll aren’t the first to hate me. Please don’t let that distract you from the evidence in front of you. People are being manipulated, in new, dangerous, and devastatingly effective ways. That has potentially catastrophic consequences. I know that people have been manipulated before. I know many of them were awful to begin with. Please do not let that stop you from considering the scope and the implications of the manipulation.
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Sep 4, 2020 11:09
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I mean do you just flat out disagree with the idea that some things are a public health issue rather than an individual moral one? Like yes I literally do think that many kinds of crime are not really helped by focusing on prosecuting the people who do them and in fact that doing so may even actually be counterproductive and produce worse outcomes. This isn't a wild idea?
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Sep 4, 2020 11:10
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Did you miss the part where I said that was absolutely true and there was no argument there or what This is the Qanon thread. I’d love to discuss all your ideas for solving the rest of the worlds woes in another forum
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Sep 4, 2020 11:23
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So who's the big secret mastermind here? Is it Voldemort? Is that why you can't say who it is?
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Sep 4, 2020 11:30
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Nessus posted:So who's the big secret mastermind here? Is it Voldemort? Is that why you can't say who it is? I mean ultimately this whole thing is about how some people think it started with a couple trolls while Bucky thinks it has to be a greater project though hes not sure exactly who.
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Sep 4, 2020 11:49
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Nessus posted:So who's the big secret mastermind here? Is it Voldemort? Is that why you can't say who it is? If you really want a simple answer, it's almost certainly Roger Stone, but I don't particularly want to say that, firstly because it gives him the notoriety he desperately craves but doesn't necessarily deserve, but more because it is definitely not that simple. Joel Zammel is an Australian guy who started Psy Group etc. Look them up. I think it's most likely to be their baby. Parscale (again, begrudgingly) and everyone else on the campaign deserves his own credit. And of course Bannon and all his shenanigans. Beyond that, gently caress man I don't know, that's the point, help me fill in the gaps please
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Sep 4, 2020 11:55
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Beyond that, gently caress man I don't know, that's the point, help me fill in the gaps please Youve been so violently resistant to people trying to help you so far
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Sep 4, 2020 12:23
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If you learned who was behind it, had it all laid out -- the authors of the Q drops, their contacts and backers etc -- what then? The reason it's not too interesting to me is the knowledge doesn't fix anything I care about. Even if we were able to send those guys to jail/treatment eventually. We're still stuck with the social milieu that (a) makes some of us susceptible to dumb conspiratorial beliefs and (b) produces villains and distressed psychotics who originate and post these conspiratorial beliefs. What will you do with your answers once you have them?
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Sep 4, 2020 14:07
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Can someone please tell RA to leave me alone, I’ve asked them nicely already, but they keep going and just used the word violentNessus posted:So who's the big secret mastermind here? Is it Voldemort? Is that why you can't say who it is? But also, yeah, the exact name isn't actually the point so much, the point is that it looks very much like the ‘save the children’ thing came from the same place as Q, and whoever that is, that’s a loving problem, because it has been extremely effective. That's really all I'm trying to say. They have an extremely powerful manipulation machine and disinformation disseminator, and at the moment there doesn't appear to be much of any way to counter it. Plus they have the executive branch and significant chunks of the rest. Things also appear to be becoming increasingly militarised. While he's openly saying he won't accept the election. So stay safe I guess. indiscriminately posted:If you learned who was behind it, had it all laid out -- the authors of the Q drops, their contacts and backers etc -- what then? Speculating about the rest is at least as interesting as a fictional TV show, surely. Or history. And I would have thought it was on topic for this thread, but if you think it doesn't really matter because we're still stuck with the social milieu, that's fine too. But also.. America (and the world) is under attack, and you don't see any value in investigating who is doing it and how?
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Sep 4, 2020 14:58
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No dude. As people have explained to you, even if your random guess were true, it doesn’t do anything for anyone. I’ll ask you again - what’s your next step now that you have this sacred knowledge only you could divine?
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Sep 4, 2020 15:35
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If you don't want to hear from RagnarokAngel anymore you can put them on your ignore list.Bucky Fullminster posted:Speculating about the rest is at least as interesting as a fictional TV show, surely. Or history. And I would have thought it was on topic for this thread, but if you think it doesn't really matter because we're still stuck with the social milieu, that's fine too. Well, there's value in some investigative body with governmental imprimatur doing that investigation. I can't demand that an ISP or website show me its logs, or arrest anyone, but an investigative body can. G-men have legal tools (and salaries). I like thinking about problems that help me better understand the world. I was blown away that QAnon had grown so much, I wanted to understand how, so I read about it and thought about it and now in the thread I hypothesize along with the other folks. I think it's fine that you're interested in hypothesizing about the villains, I agree this is the thread for it. When I tell you I'm less interested in it than you are that doesn't mean I think you're wrong for being interested in it. (And I'm sorry you get dogpiled sometimes in this thread. I think you bring it on yourself by the way you communicate but I don't think you do it on purpose. And I think you bring value to the thread.)
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Sep 4, 2020 15:49
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I, personally, wouldn't mind Bucky's posts at all if they were done in the same speculative manner as other theory mongering. That's why I read this thread, after all. It's the radical insistence that their interpretation must be correct, paired with being unable to take even the most milquetoast form of criticism or disagreement without acting like a soccer player taking a dive. 'RA used the word violent! ban this filth!' *infinite jerkoff motion*
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Sep 4, 2020 15:55
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Bucky, I think you’ve got some interesting ideas, but they’re getting lost in your rhetoric. Your goal seems to be to help people avoid falling into the trap of this conspiracy, which is noble, but when you consider the average literacy level of adults in the US is that of a middle schooler, there’s got to be a little more focus. I don’t want to say “write us a five paragraph essay explaining your position,” because that seems demeaning, but I honestly think that sort of exercise might help you get across what you want to say in a way that is going to be less frustrating for you to defend and for other posters to engage with.
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Sep 4, 2020 16:57
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Bucky Fullminster posted:If I sound crazy or annoying, fine, whatever, that’s my cross to bear and ya’ll aren’t the first to hate me. Please don’t let that distract you from the evidence in front of you. People are being manipulated, in new, dangerous, and devastatingly effective ways. That has potentially catastrophic consequences. I know that people have been manipulated before. I know many of them were awful to begin with. Please do not let that stop you from considering the scope and the implications of the manipulation. You have not actually provided any compelling evidence that your interpretation is more plausible than the alternatives. Bucky Fullminster posted:If you really want a simple answer, it's almost certainly Roger Stone, but I don't particularly want to say that, firstly because it gives him the notoriety he desperately craves but doesn't necessarily deserve, but more because it is definitely not that simple. How about you explain how you reached these conclusions? Or alternatively stop posting in the thread. I think at this point those are your two options moving forward because at this point you're monopolizing the thread without really contributing to it.
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Sep 4, 2020 17:25
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