|
Nessus posted:The other was the fandom making it some kind of graduation exam for everyone from Starfleet where it was probably just a capstone exercise for command track personnel. But no, everybody's got their Kobayashi Maru story, and it's always some innovative way to gently caress with the system.
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 20:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 23:51 |
|
|
I can see them giving every cadet the Kobayashi Maru (and I can easily imagine there's a whole building at the academy that's nothing but holodecks running bridge simulations) as a way of determining command track suitability.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 20:58
|
|
|
More specifically, the revelation that Kirk cheated on the Kobiyashi Maru was part of a theme of Nicholas Meyer's, which is that, until the death of Spock, Kirk never was forced to deal with loss or lack of control...that he had never been not in control of a situation, and he had never had to lose anything or anyone important to him before. Hence, his cheating on the simulation, because he wasn't willing to accept a situation where he couldn't win. It's not in keeping with Kirk in TOS, who was a walking ball of grief who constantly lost everyone he cared about, but it fit with Meyer's view of the character.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 21:01
|
|
|
Like, his colony when he was a kid literally went through a genocide
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
Sash! posted:That's deep into "no poo poo" territory. It's such a non-test that it baffles me that they think it tests anything. The entire time it's presented as an engineering qualification exam. So Troi thinks there must be an engineering solution to the problem. Which there is. It only requires her to be able to order a crew member to their death to solve. What it probably tests is the ability of the officer to consider that a viable solution to a problem. Riker was about to fail her until he obliquely gives her a clue to the solution.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 21:23
|
|
|
Sash! posted:That's deep into "no poo poo" territory. It's such a non-test that it baffles me that they think it tests anything. The Federation is a future utopia where everyone is incredibly soft and has every need catered for and Picard weekly lets minor species take potshots at the Enterprise without shooting back because it's so incredibly safe. Starfleet is also a quasi-military organisation and 'Command' is clearly the more military track whereas it seems like the other disciplines have a different culture. This is a test specifically for people making the move to Command to check that they do have the ethos to make this decision, because it absolutely isn't a no-brainer. Remember Troi doesn't get the option to send Georgi to his death put in front of her to reject, the simulation requires her to actively enquire 'but what if you killed yourself'.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 21:36
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:The Federation is a future utopia where everyone is incredibly soft and has every need catered for I guess this is where I have a problem wrapping my head around it. The history of big moving objects, not even military ones, have a long history of "send someone to die" as a solution to an engineering problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 21:57
|
|
|
Sash! posted:I guess this is where I have a problem wrapping my head around it. The history of big moving objects, not even military ones, have a long history of "send someone to die" as a solution to an engineering problem. I don't even think this is a future-culture problem. I think 99% of people today would fail that test. You would unless you thought about it in the right terms. Also the moment Troi realises that her first priority needs to be the ship, the solution to the problem is obvious to her. She has always known 'send someone to die' is a solution, but she thinks the test is to try to save everyone. It wouldn't be a good B-plot for the episode if she knew the solution at the beginning, but I don't think it's unreasonable that Troi as a character doesn't see it. If you want to rationalise the test in a wider Star Trek canon then as 'ship's councillor' she's also presumably waaay off the normal track of people going for command and not the usual psychological profile. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 22:04
|
|
|
SardonicTyrant posted:The only one I'm willing to give a pass to is Nog, who in one of the novels beats it by making a deal with the enemy ships. I could see the programmers, being Federation types, wouldn't have thought of such a Ferengi approach. Scotty's versions was exploiting an obvious simulator physics glitch, because he was doing it to deliberately throw the test and get off the command track.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:Scotty's versions was exploiting an obvious simulator physics glitch, because he was doing it to deliberately throw the test and get off the command track. "That's obviously a glitch in the simulation. Fail him."
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 00:03
|
|
|
Wasn't the Kobayashi Maru also added because Gene Roddenberry had maliciously leaked that they were going to kill Spock in TWOK, and so his fake death at the beginning could be used to confirm this leak in an attempt to try and retain some surprise when they actually killed him?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
This shot made me oddly happy in this week's Lower Decks.   Derpball ship is canonical in the main timeline now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:59
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:This shot made me oddly happy in this week's Lower Decks. Son of a bitch, am I going to have to actually watch this now?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:03
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:Son of a bitch, am I going to have to actually watch this now? It's pretty good, OP.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:11
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:This shot made me oddly happy in this week's Lower Decks. They actually go to DS9 or what?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:It's pretty good, OP. How do you watch? I'd rather not pay CBS for their streaming service because I'm pretty broke, but I'd be willing to give Lower Decks a try.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
This "drugs are bad" PSA episode in season 1 is a hell of a thing. Tasha explaining drugs to Wesley while Worf just stands there awkwardly is sure a scene. The aliens having magic electric powers for no reason is also a strange addition. The crew just kinda stands around watching this dumb electric fight happen for a super long time too. Picard was just going to let them electric fight to the death till Yar broke it up. Also: quote:According to the background book The Worlds of the Federation, in the aftermath of the events of "Symbiosis", the Ornarans began to suffer withdrawal symptoms but did not die, finally becoming aware of their addiction to felicium and the Brekkians' exploitation of it. However, in spite of this awareness, they chose not to break their dependence on felicium and willingly continued trading with the Brekkians for it. Oh well, I'm glad we all learned that lesson.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:37
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:They actually go to DS9 or what? Oh mariner is just telling a quick story about something that happened when she was serving on the Quito. Featuring everyone's favourite uniforms! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
I like lower decks
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
Seeing an Olympic-class ship and TNG movie uniforms actually makes me kinda happy. One of the things I like about Trek is that over the decades it's developed its own sort of history for its universe. In Star Wars everything is always the same, but in Trek different shows have different aesthetics and different technologies, and over the course of the Berman era these slowly solidified into a little chronology. It eventually got to the point where you could pick a year at random and know what events were happening, what uniforms people would be wearing, what ships would be around, what technology people would have, and so on. DSC broke this chronology for me; despite the explanations given for why things looked the way they did and for why certain events were never mentioned in later shows, I could never believe that there was an unbroken line of progression from "The Cage" to DSC to "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and I felt like anyone who told me otherwise was trying to make me see five lights when there were clearly four. It just made DSC feel like a cynical reboot made by people who were too cowardly to outright call it one since they still wanted older fans to buy subscriptions and watch it. Now, seeing these references in LDS doesn't make everything all better overnight...but I am happy to see somebody cares about the old stuff.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:29
|
|
|
Lower Decks is clearly a love letter to Trek that's not afraid to also make fun of it, and I'm really appreciating it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 05:05
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:Son of a bitch, am I going to have to actually watch this now? The weakest parts of the comedy are when they shoehorn in references to past stories by having someone (usually Mariner) blurt out "This is like a [TREK CHARACTER] doing a [TREK THING] with [DIFFERENT TREK CHARACTER]!!! lolol"
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 07:47
|
|
|
In the interest of fairness it was largely agreed the previous episode was absolutely dire and the first three were nothing to write home about, so this would be the first Good episode of the show
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 08:25
|
|
|
multijoe posted:In the interest of fairness it was largely agreed the previous episode was absolutely dire and the first three were nothing to write home about, so this would be the first Good episode of the show
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 08:34
|
|
|
Okay this time I seem to be off consensus because I thought it was absolutely dire, with the main story being an entirely predictable repeat of 'yet again Mariner is a terrible person with zero consequences'. Trying to run an A plot, a B plot, and a C plot in a 25 minute episode means that none of them get any depth at all. Ironically the C plot had the only funny jokes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 08:38
|
|
|
multijoe posted:In the interest of fairness it was largely agreed the previous episode was absolutely dire and the first three were nothing to write home about, so this would be the first Good episode of the show the previous episode was super fun though previews for the next episode are looking pretty good imo
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 10:22
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:More specifically, the revelation that Kirk cheated on the Kobiyashi Maru was part of a theme of Nicholas Meyer's, which is that, until the death of Spock, Kirk never was forced to deal with loss or lack of control...that he had never been not in control of a situation, and he had never had to lose anything or anyone important to him before. Hence, his cheating on the simulation, because he wasn't willing to accept a situation where he couldn't win. It's not in keeping with Kirk in TOS, who was a walking ball of grief who constantly lost everyone he cared about, but it fit with Meyer's view of the character. 
womb with a view fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Sep 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 10:54
|
|
|
womb with a view posted:[timg]https://imgur.com/oNCiWXs You can’t link the imgur page, you have to link the actual image’s address.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 11:00
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:You can’t link the imgur page, you have to link the actual image’s address. Whoops, normally I catch that before posting. My bad
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 11:59
|
|
|
Star Trek II's implication to me was the test was about how you handle failure more than death. "Fear in the face of certain death" was from JJTrek. Also Spock says he never took it so it must have been only for command track cadets and maybe they force you to take it if they think you're command material?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 13:57
|
|
|
Like I said, walking ball of grief. But Meyer didn't really know or like Star Trek that much when he worked on the film, so he had his own conception of Kirk as reckless and arrogant.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 14:02
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Oh mariner is just telling a quick story about something that happened when she was serving on the Quito. Featuring everyone's favourite uniforms! Honestly a bit surprised they did this. I have a real soft spot for the First Contact/late DS9 uniform.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 14:05
|
|
|
the only Trek movie that actually counts is TMP
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 14:09
|
|
|
I like that they've introduced the California class as the 2370s version of the Oberth. Its styling is somewhere between the Galaxy and Sovereign, but it's only something like 8 decks tall and has that awkward engineering pod. They make fun of the inconsistent movie era deck numbers (Star Treks V and X looking at you) by having a fake emergency call for Deck 24 on a ship that's way too small to have a Deck 24 and the characters looking at each other in confusion. I also like they set up the Cerritos as a ship for dead-enders and screw-ups, but they've also been slowly exploring what kind of person would want to be on the Cerritos. Plum assignments are dangerous and stressful in Trek. The Vancouver looks like a Miranda-ized Sovereign. I wonder if the format of the show means that they'll just have an explosion of ship classes like we saw in Trek 2009 and Discovery. It's not like the Federation is lacking designers and shipyards. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Sep 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 15:01
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:The Vancouver looks like a Miranda-ized Sovereign. I wonder if the format of the show means that they'll just have an explosion of ship classes like we saw in Trek 2009 and Discovery. It's not like the Federation is lacking designers and shipyards. The Vancouver styling is halfway between the Galaxy and the Sovereign too, so that seems to be what they're going for with their ship designs. And yeah, I kinda suspect they will end up showing a huge number of designs. I hope they end up using more old ones that we only saw once or twice like the Olympic, too, if they want to lean in on references. Vancouver:    It actually looks quite a bit like the design used in EU stuff for Riker's ship, the Titan.   Kind of a pity they couldn't use that - it's not canonical, but it's been used for books, comic books, videogames and has had a model issued, so it's pretty well established. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Sep 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 15:22
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:I like that they've introduced the California class as the 2370s version of the Oberth. Its styling is somewhere between the Galaxy and Sovereign, but it's only something like 8 decks tall and has that awkward engineering pod.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
Bah, you guys are making want to go through the effort of pirating LDS since it hasn't been picked up by anyone in the UK. DSC and PIC may be trashy, but I watched them because they were just on Netflix and Prime Video respectively, so I didn't have to pay anything extra and didn't have to put in any effort to watch them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 15:51
|
|
|
Veotax posted:Bah, you guys are making want to go through the effort of pirating LDS since it hasn't been picked up by anyone in the UK. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 15:54
|
|
|
multijoe posted:In the interest of fairness it was largely agreed the previous episode was absolutely dire and the first three were nothing to write home about, so this would be the first Good episode of the show This was not "largely agreed" at all, ya big dumbo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 16:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 23:51 |
|
|
It's worth it because the show is actually good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 16:13
|
|