Wingnut Ninja posted:

So here's a thing: something that's always kind of bugged me is that I don't really buy the inevitable jump from "taking over Arrakis" to "galactic jihad". For the better part of two whole books Paul keeps going on about woe is me, there's no possible way to stop this jihad, nope, nothing I can do, fire up the death squads. But it does precious little to actually show why this is; we see Fremen fired up to overthrow the Harkonnens at the end of Dune in a way that makes Paul nervous, but all of the Fremen prophecy and mythology we see revolves around fighting off oppressors and making Arrakis a better place, not so much "and then when that's done go on and take over the galaxy". It's not implausible, certainly, but it definitely doesn't feel like it should be the only path.

Now, I realize that two major themes of the books are the trap of prescience, and how leaders are often shoehorned into a course of action due to larger forces beyond their control. In the case of Leto Sr. being coerced into giving up Caladan for Arrakis it makes a lot of sense, since he's just one player out of many and not the strongest. But Paul being king poo poo of the universe and just going along with it feels like a cop-out. And maybe that's the point, if Paul is just as much of a power hungry rear end in a top hat as everyone else and only blames "fate" as a way to appease his conscience, then that's perfect. I'm just wondering if there's something else there that I'm missing.

TL;DR the galactic jihad feels like a case of "we're doing it because it's in the script" (i.e. because Paul foresees it) rather than having any in-universe justification.

quote:

I had no intention of shooting the elephant – I had merely sent for the rifle to defend myself if necessary – and it is always unnerving to have a crowd following you.

...

But at that moment I glanced round at the crowd that had followed me. It was an immense crowd, two thousand at the least and growing every minute. It blocked the road for a long distance on either side. I looked at the sea of yellow faces above the garish clothes - faces all happy and excited over this bit of fun, all certain that the elephant was going to be shot. They were watching me as they would watch a conjurer about to perform a trick. They did not like me, but with the magical rifle in my hands I was momentarily worth watching. And suddenly I realized that I should have to shoot the elephant after all. The people expected it of me and I had got to do it; I could feel their two thousand wills pressing me forward, irresistibly. And it was at this moment, as I stood there with the rifle in my hands, that I first grasped the hollowness, the futility of the white man’s dominion in the East. Here was I, the white man with his gun, standing in front of the unarmed native crowd – seemingly the leading actor of the piece; but in reality I was only an absurd puppet pushed to and fro by the will of those yellow faces behind. I perceived in this moment that when the white man turns tyrant it is his own freedom that he destroys. He becomes a sort of hollow, posing dummy, the conventionalized figure of a sahib. For it is the condition of his rule that he shall spend his life in trying to impress the “natives,” and so in every crisis he has got to do what the “natives” expect of him. He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it.

Ror posted:

Why doesn't the goddamn box of pain have a fancy name like the Gom Jabbar does?

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Shooting an Elephant by George Orwell seems relevant reading.

Wingnut Ninja posted:

I buy that for taking over Arrakis, since that was a big part of the prophecy/expectation for Paul. It's afterwards where they're sitting around watching Shaddam being stuffed back onto his ship in disgrace, and say "well, I guess now we should go rape the universe" that seems like a stretch. Like it's missing a few intermediate steps showing them develop in that direction.

quote:

"I don’t understand you, Paul,” his mother said.
He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this—the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.

Koopa Kid posted:

He’s implied to be a failed branch of the Kwisatz Haderach program iirc, there’s a branch of time Paul sees where Fenrig kills him but he ultimately recognizes Paul’s legitimacy and does nothing.

juggalo baby coffin posted:

this is the best dune video ever made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B6jgkcANRE

juggalo baby coffin posted:

this is the best dune video ever made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B6jgkcANRE

juggalo baby coffin posted:

this is the best dune video ever made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B6jgkcANRE

Ingmar terdman posted:

I'm a victim of circumstance said the human computer/ninja/feudal heir



no dont, please, stop

yaffle posted:

Welcome, traveller, to my hall of giant veiny cocks.

juggalo baby coffin posted:

this is the best dune video ever made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B6jgkcANRE

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

You mean...Paul?

Colonel Cancer posted:

Lmao he's such a goon

Ingmar terdman posted:

Ingmar terdman posted:

Ingmar terdman posted:

niethan posted:

Is Hwi Black?

phasmid posted:

Almost everyone I've talked to seems to think that Hwi's skin color is discussed but I really don't remember the book saying one way or another.

quote:

His first view of Hwi Noree revealed a remarkable likeness to her Uncle Malky, but her grave movements and the calmness of her stride were equally remarkable in their difference from Malky. She did have that dark skin, though, the oval face with its regular features. Placid brown eyes stared back at Leto. And where Malky's hair had been gray, hers was a luminous brown.

phasmid posted:

Well I'll shut up then. Hah. I guess I was recalling one friend of mine who said she was definitely Asian. When I asked what part of Arrakis is Asia he admitted he just had a thing for Asian women? IDK nerds are weird.

Stryder posted:

FWIW, I really like Devon Cady-Lee's version of Leto II. It looks like Cady-Lee is a concept artist working for Warner Bros. so... maybe there's hope for a film yet!