Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

Duodecimal: Dec 28, 2012; Still stupid

Tree Bucket posted:

And that map there clearly shows a river flowing through a mountain range! That's an inexcusable error, and frankly lazy.

Know you're jesting, but it's neat to know it just means the river is older than the mountains.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 14:07

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# ? May 9, 2024 06:10

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Duodecimal posted:

Know you're jesting, but it's neat to know it just means the river is older than the mountains.

See also: all the rivers flowing W-E through the Appalachians

e: and the Appalachians are ooooooooooollllllld

# ? Sep 21, 2020 14:55

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Faramir calls Sauron "Nameless" fairly regularly, but he's also hiding out in Ithilien at the time so he might be a bit more wary.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 15:11

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Runcible Cat posted:

Another question for the loremasters: when Aragorn and co first find the bodies of Isengard orcs they're looking at their S-rune insignia and Aragorn remarks that Sauron doesn't "use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken".

Is there any more on this anywhere? Or was it just a quick literary bodge to say no no definitely not S for Sauron? Is Sauron even his "right name" considering he's previously gone by Thu and Gorthaur? What's he got against it?

The Encyclopedia of Arda tries to explain this.

quote:

In The Black Gate Opens, the Mouth of Sauron hails the Captains of the West with an introduction: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron'. This is somewhat problematic, because earlier in The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn says of Sauron that 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken...' (The Two Towers III 1, The Departure of Boromir). The Mouth of Sauron, though, uses the name several times without apparent embarrassment.

All the evidence suggests that Aragorn is simply wrong. Not only does the Mouth of Sauron use his Lord's 'right name' freely, but so does the messenger sent to Dáin in Erebor. Indeed, we hear about Dáin's messenger at the Council of Elrond, at which Aragorn was present: he must have been - to use Gandalf's word - 'inattentive' on this point.

One possible reason for Aragorn's error is that his information is out of date. For most of the Third Age, Sauron had been building his strength, in secret, at Dol Guldur. Given his need to remain hidden, it's natural that he would ban his servants from using his real name. Any detailed information that Aragorn had about him and his ways would date back to Gandalf's spying expeditions in this period.

The Tale of Years entry for the year III 2951 states 'Sauron declares himself openly...' At this point, about seventy years before the War of the Ring, Sauron no longer felt any need for secrecy, and so presumably permitted his name to be used from that point on. Aragorn, of course, would have had no way of knowing about this change, which would explain his mistake.

Did Tolkien intend all this? Probably not - it seems much more likely that Aragorn's words were a casual slip of the author's pen. The explanation given here, though, does make a certain amount of sense within the context of the story.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/mouthofsauron.html

Further complicating this is the fact that, as was mentioned above, Sauron's "right name" was Mairon, though it does make sense for a mouthpiece to introduce himself by his master's most well-known name. I believe, though I'm not sure, that no other servant of Sauron uses the name Sauron, they call him epithets like The Eye, The Master, The Biggest, etc.

So two solutions present themselves: either the EoA is correct above, and Aragorn's information is just out of date; or the Mouth and other spokespeople for Sauron have special permission to speak the name.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 16:23

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The lotr is a imperfect source with translation errors so it�s hard to say what he really said at the gate

# ? Sep 21, 2020 16:29

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

I don�t think we can say that Mairon was still his �right name�. Original, sure, but not right. There�s nothing admirable about what Sauron has become except to his fellow megalomaniacs. Hell, maybe his original name is a casualty of his inability to take �fair shape� at this point.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 16:53

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Or Tolkien just made a mistake

# ? Sep 21, 2020 16:54

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I thinks it�s clear �Sauron� is not his endonym but a name in the hated colonial language used by the colonialists

It�s makes sense he wouldn�t want his people to use it but the pro colonial translators would translate whatever the Mouth of Sauron�s name was to �Mouth of Sauron� or that the ambassador, being Numenorian, used it anyway as a relic of his heritage

Or perhaps Saurons endonym isn�t possible in Westron

# ? Sep 21, 2020 16:57

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

William Bear posted:

The Encyclopedia of Arda tries to explain this.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/mouthofsauron.html

Further complicating this is the fact that, as was mentioned above, Sauron's "right name" was Mairon, though it does make sense for a mouthpiece to introduce himself by his master's most well-known name. I believe, though I'm not sure, that no other servant of Sauron uses the name Sauron, they call him epithets like The Eye, The Master, The Biggest, etc.

So two solutions present themselves: either the EoA is correct above, and Aragorn's information is just out of date; or the Mouth and other spokespeople for Sauron have special permission to speak the name.

maybe sauron had given him the right to use the s-word

# ? Sep 21, 2020 17:33

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

Data Graham posted:

Yeah, it's really deceptively difficult to make a "realistic" map because reality isn't very plausible. I mean look at Central/South America, tell me that doesn't look like the work of a hack

buenos aires sounds like a town name from a lovely jrpg

# ? Sep 21, 2020 17:37

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Remember too that names hold power in Middle-Earth. When Frodo cries out on Weathertop the name of Elbereth holds real power to harm or frighten the Ringwraiths.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 17:56

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

Shibawanko posted:

buenos aires sounds like a town name from a lovely jrpg

"The town of Good-Air, because... the air is good? And it is the capital of Silvery-Land because they found a lot of silver there? Yeah right, get outta here you loving hack :rolleyes:

# ? Sep 21, 2020 17:57

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

System Metternich posted:

"The town of Good-Air, because... the air is good? And it is the capital of Silvery-Land because they found a lot of silver there? Yeah right, get outta here you loving hack "

the worst one is new zealand though. "north island" and "south island"

# ? Sep 21, 2020 18:06

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Data Graham posted:

Yeah, it's really deceptively difficult to make a "realistic" map because reality isn't very plausible. I mean look at Central/South America, tell me that doesn't look like the work of a hack

The world is full of places where people went "gently caress it, let's use a name again, put the word 'new' in front of it and hope nobody notices."

# ? Sep 21, 2020 18:13

Imagined: Feb 2, 2007

Or they don't even bother with that, ala Paris, TX, Miami, OK, Lebanon, KS, etc

# ? Sep 21, 2020 19:11

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

ChubbyChecker posted:

maybe sauron had given him the right to use the s-word

Either that or the beam of light Frodo and Sam saw coming from Barad-dur was Sauron noticing and deciding big mouth was getting a nice long stay in the Halls of Lamentation when he got back.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 19:11

perc2: May 16, 2020

perc2 fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 21, 2020

# ? Sep 21, 2020 19:13

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

sweet geek swag posted:

There is some interesting stuff with names in Lord of the Rings. Aragorn, for example, has four names (at least). Gandalf has a lot of names. Yet at no point are any of these names necessarily described as the true name of either Aragorn or Gandalf. Rather they use whatever name is appropriate for the time or place they happen to be in.

quote:

Then Aragorn entered first and the others followed. And there at the door were two guards in the livery of the Citadel: one tall, but the other scarce the height of a boy; and when he saw them he cried aloud in surprise and joy.

�Strider! How splendid! Do you know, I guessed it was you in the black ships. But they were all shouting corsairs and wouldn�t listen to me. How did you do it?�

Aragorn laughed, and took the hobbit by the hand. �Well met indeed!� he said. �But there is not time yet for travellers� tales.�

But Imrahil said to �omer: �Is it thus that we speak to our kings? Yet maybe he will wear his crown in some other name!�

And Aragorn hearing him, turned and said: �Verily, for in the high tongue of old I am Elessar, the Elfstone, and Envinyatar, the Renewer�: and he lifted from his breast the green stone that lay there. �But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.�
...
At the doors of the Houses many were already gathered to see Aragorn, and they followed after him; and when at last he had supped, men came and prayed that he would heal their kinsmen or their friends whose lives were in peril through hurt or wound, or who lay under the Black Shadow. And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night. And word went through the City: �The King is come again indeed.� And they named him Elfstone, because of the green stone that he wore, and so the name which it was foretold at his birth that he should bear was chosen for him by his own people.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 19:58

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Alhazred posted:

The world is full of places where people went "gently caress it, let's use a name again, put the word 'new' in front of it and hope nobody notices."

I uh, didn�t mean place names, I�m talking about shapes. Like how there�s these two gigantic thicc landmasses held together by this ridiculously tiny little umbilical cord like someone was trying to make a deliberately obtuse Risk board

# ? Sep 21, 2020 21:06

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Data Graham posted:

I uh, didn�t mean place names, I�m talking about shapes. Like how there�s these two gigantic thicc landmasses held together by this ridiculously tiny little umbilical cord like someone was trying to make a deliberately obtuse Risk board

And they didn't bother to put anything on half the globe. Just water! Couldn't they think of something to put there?

# ? Sep 21, 2020 21:21

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

antarctica is such a generic final dungeon kinda place

# ? Sep 21, 2020 21:31

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Shibawanko posted:

the worst one is new zealand though. "north island" and "south island"

Britain has The Highlands and The Midlands.

And the Lowlands/Netherlands are just over the Channel.

# ? Sep 21, 2020 21:32

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Yeah, right next to People�s Land

# ? Sep 21, 2020 21:38

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

And the North Sea. How could I forget the North Sea? Generic AF!

Runcible Cat fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Sep 21, 2020

# ? Sep 21, 2020 21:58

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

My favorite part of that map was assuming Scotland would be a naval power

# ? Sep 21, 2020 22:01

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

"Tonight, on the eve of our setting sail for Darien, I wish most fervently upon a monkey's paw that due to this great endeavour, all Scotsmen shall one day be part of the greatest naval empire in the world!"

# ? Sep 21, 2020 22:32

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Yeah but what did you all thing about Mt Doom literally being a Morgoth sacred place. Likes it�s him. The lava is him

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:06

Pham Nuwen: Oct 30, 2010

euphronius posted:

Yeah but what did you all thing about Mt Doom literally being a Morgoth sacred place. Likes it’s him. The lava is him

I don't think much of it.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:08

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

euphronius posted:

Yeah but what did you all thing about Mt Doom literally being a Morgoth sacred place. Likes it�s him. The lava is him

Eh, it's not really supported in the text. I know that part of the reason Morgoth is such a wimp at the end of the first age is that he had poured too much of himself into Middle-Earth, but I don't think that meant he became lava.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:25

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Not lava in general

Wait. No yeah maybe lava in general ??

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:31

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

And F�anor named him Moltar, the Dark Enemy of the World

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:41

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Mt Doom might have an in-dwelling spirit of some sort. Caradhras does. And I definitely agree that it was made by him, it�s right up his alley.

It�s not Morgoth himself though. He�s thrown outside of the universe and no one can commune with him directly. Sauron�s and Pharazon�s religion to him is a deliberate fraud.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:41

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

skasion posted:

Mt Doom might have an in-dwelling spirit of some sort. Caradhras does. And I definitely agree that it was made by him, it�s right up his alley.

It�s not Morgoth himself though. He�s thrown outside of the universe and no one can commune with him directly. Sauron�s and Pharazon�s religion to him is a deliberate fraud.

That's just what those Numenorian colonizers would say.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:42

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

skasion posted:

Mt Doom might have an in-dwelling spirit of some sort. Caradhras does. And I definitely agree that it was made by him, it�s right up his alley.

It�s not Morgoth himself though. He�s thrown outside of the universe and no one can commune with him directly. Sauron�s and Pharazon�s religion to him is a deliberate fraud.

His spirit is still in the world like a horcr...... Phylactery

I agree the little, scarred and burnt remains of Melkor are gone

# ? Sep 22, 2020 01:46

Blood Boils: Dec 27, 2006; Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

euphronius posted:

Yeah but what did you all thing about Mt Doom literally being a Morgoth sacred place. Likes it�s him. The lava is him

I like it

# ? Sep 22, 2020 02:14

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

euphronius posted:

His spirit is still in the world like a horcr...... Phylactery

I agree the little, scarred and burnt remains of Melkor are gone

Stick with horcrux. JK Rowling sucks, but that particular piece of her work doesn't have any unfortunate implications attached to it. Contrast that to the word phylactery, which associates a Jewish religious practice with evil and death.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 02:19

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Man, wouldn't that just piss Fëanor off that he gets trumped out of being the Spirit of Fire by a dude who's just constantly lava?

# ? Sep 22, 2020 02:20

webmeister: Jan 31, 2007; The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

skasion posted:

Mt Doom might have an in-dwelling spirit of some sort. Caradhras does. And I definitely agree that it was made by him, it�s right up his alley.

Sounds painful

# ? Sep 22, 2020 03:00

Safety Biscuits: Oct 21, 2010

ChubbyChecker posted:

maybe sauron had given him the right to use the s-word

Maybe, but why? He's a herald, not a fighter.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 03:24

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# ? May 9, 2024 06:10

Global Disorder: Jan 9, 2020

Safety Biscuits posted:

Maybe, but why? He's a herald, not a fighter.

Because the Mouth is the closest thing Sauron has to a diplomat, and that's an important job. Using the boss' name in negotiations to intimidate his enemies is different than using it among your pals during water cooler talk.

# ? Sep 22, 2020 04:08

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