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The best news is they're loving ditching Diesel
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Oct 4, 2020 14:17
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I guess they couldn't find more proprietary nonsense to blow $8.6 million and two years on.
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Oct 4, 2020 15:20
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Payday 3 better have instagib
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Oct 4, 2020 19:40
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will payday 3 be set in other countries and you're robbing them for president bain
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Oct 4, 2020 19:43
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Is goldfarb coming back to make another Dark Souls of Heists
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Oct 4, 2020 19:53
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HebrewMagic posted:Is goldfarb coming back to make another Dark Souls of Heists I'd rather have Goldfarb over Jules.
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Oct 4, 2020 20:45
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UnknownMercenary posted:I'd rather have Goldfarb over Jules.
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Oct 4, 2020 20:51
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UnknownMercenary posted:I'd rather have Goldfarb over Jules.
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Oct 5, 2020 03:29
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The White Dragon posted:will payday 3 be set in other countries and you're robbing them for president bain That sounds genuinely fun.
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Oct 5, 2020 03:32
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maswastaken posted:I guess they couldn't find more proprietary nonsense to blow $8.6 million and two years on. Well Bo isn't around to ALLEGEDLY launder money anymore so
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Oct 5, 2020 05:10
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Im down for foreign intervention payday team I wonder if people taste good
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Oct 5, 2020 14:54
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I hope they do more for sneaky heists. Love 2 sneak
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Oct 5, 2020 16:40
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I'd like a total separation of stealth and loud. Give me two separate missions to select on the same map and two separate loadouts to keep equipped. I like partial stealth missions like Mercy Hospital or Counterfeit, but gently caress trying to coordinate a stealth/loud heist on the pubstove.
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Oct 5, 2020 18:18
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bbcisdabomb posted:I'd like a total separation of stealth and loud. Give me two separate missions to select on the same map and two separate loadouts to keep equipped. I like partial stealth missions like Mercy Hospital or Counterfeit, but gently caress trying to coordinate a stealth/loud heist on the pubstove. I think my biggest problem with stealth is how there is so little point in continuing if things go loud most of the time. Even if the level doesn't auto fail, the sneak load out is usually pretty worthless for trying to go loud on the higher difficulties. That, and give us more zip ties so I don't have to go all Mr Blonde on civilians when I am solo stealthing.
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Oct 6, 2020 21:52
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Yeah the big problem with stealth is that restarting the map isn't fun, but it's also basically the only viable option if you went in loaded for stealth unless you're on a lower difficulty. A lot of maps also have the issue of stealth progress not carrying over to loud progress, so even if you do want to just roll with it, you are functionally starting the whole heist over again anyway.
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Oct 6, 2020 23:49
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They really didn't stick the landing on the stealth/loud mixing. Which is a shame because it was clearly an intended idea from the outset and very much part of the theming they were going for. You start with a Plan A where the cops don't come, and have to shoot your way out as a "fail forward with consequences" if you cant pull it off. If they had pulled it off they'd be in good company with a ton of TTRPG and have a great movie heist simulator, but they set up the equipment and skills such that you're basically good at one or the other, and they set up the transition from stealth to loud very poorly in most missions like Cheshire Cat says. They never really got better than the Trustee Bank at this transition - at least you keep thermal drill progress. Of course nearly all of the stealth failure happens before you drill but leave that aside. One path to working on this that I would have liked to see would have been to have "dual effect" skilltrees - a lot of the problem is that because trying to mix stealth and loud setups just makes you worse at both, you're rewarded for choosing from moment 0 which way you're going and just maximizing that. Stealth and Loud are pretty binary states of existence, so having skills that have a "stealth effect" and a "loud effect" (lockpick faster AND reload faster, sense guards through walls AND damage bonus against specials) rather than having them compete with each other for a limited pool would have been pretty cool. It would absolutely require either a much shallower skill tree in general or a massive increase in available stealth skills, and it would be years too late for Payday 2 at this point, but I think it would work better at getting to what the devs seemed to be aiming at. There even are some skills that have this dual effect, the most notewortht being drill skills, since drill time is both gatekeeping and vulnerable time in a number of stealth and loud missions.
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Oct 7, 2020 13:58
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Tulip posted:They really didn't stick the landing on the stealth/loud mixing. That sort've wanted hybrid skills/builds at launch year (one of the old skills let you answer 4 pagers instead of 3 by yourself, and acing it gave you the high value target 15% damage boost outlining effect also bring back brother's keeper) and a little bit beyond with poo poo like the armor bag in every perk deck (when was the last time you saw somebody bring that?did you even know it existed) but to quote a very wise man in this thread: Prokhor Zakharov posted:The best way to fix stealth would be to take the entire mechanic and slam dunk it into a loving dumpster because it sucks an absolutely incredible amount
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Oct 7, 2020 15:30
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EorayMel posted:That sort've wanted hybrid skills/builds at launch year (one of the old skills let you answer 4 pagers instead of 3 by yourself, and acing it gave you the high value target 15% damage boost outlining effect also bring back brother's keeper) and a little bit beyond with poo poo like the armor bag in every perk deck (when was the last time you saw somebody bring that?did you even know it existed) but to quote a very wise man in this thread: As a guy who generally likes stealth games but has done probably about 10 successful stealth heists since release: 
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Oct 7, 2020 16:05
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ah, breaking feds. that... level.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:37
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:ah, breaking feds. that... level.
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Oct 7, 2020 16:45
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The Public Stealth Game series is extremely good and cool and is a must-watch for all stealth aficionados and adversaries A primer: Such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqD8zQOEitM Or even https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xXM4013DUA Especially the clip at 3:00 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwPCLpwptAo
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Oct 7, 2020 16:49
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The first step to fixing stealth is to remove the concept of a "stealth build" by integrating relevant stealth abilities into the player's default skillset. The second step is making whatever progress you make in stealth carry over to loud. The first step is easy enough, but the second would require designing every heist around it. I wonder if Payday 3 will do that.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:52
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Kith posted:The first step to fixing stealth is to remove the concept of a "stealth build" by integrating relevant stealth abilities into the player's default skillset. The second step is making whatever progress you make in stealth carry over to loud. In addition, it's a co-op game so minimizing griefing also has to be part of the discussion. Even here, plenty of people have said that they refuse to attempt stealth with pubbies - and for good reason. Right now it's a binary choice for the most part between stealth and loud, and punishing a stealth failure with a wipe is just bad design.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:56
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Kith posted:The first step to fixing stealth is to remove the concept of a "stealth build" by integrating relevant stealth abilities into the player's default skillset. The second step is making whatever progress you make in stealth carry over to loud. Yeah, mercy hospital worked well because PD1 was not cursed with stealth mechanics, and doing it properly just required planning and teamwork. If you failed, you are “punished” by having to shoot more cops on the way to the end. Stealth as an option for heists is great, but you should never auto-fail on that basis, just have to shoot more. And having loadouts have a concealment rating, forcing you to compromise, was a mistake when they don’t offer a way to rearm properly if the heist goes south. Haven’t played this game in quite a while, though, is it worth getting back into once more?
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Oct 8, 2020 00:07
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It’s still an incredible game yes.
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Oct 8, 2020 00:32
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I remember a few times at the beginning of the game where we tried to plan B with stealth loadouts and sometimes with good players it was a fun challenge. This is like pre-nerf mosconi days mind youEorayMel posted:The Public Stealth Game series is extremely good and cool and is a must-watch for all stealth aficionados and adversaries I don't remember how much it takes to get to level 30-50, but I don't think it was much. This is just a dude playing with people who don't know how to play the game and refuses to explain anything just goes  in chat everytime someone messes up.
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Oct 8, 2020 05:22
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Fellis posted:I don't remember how much it takes to get to level 30-50, but I don't think it was much. This is just a dude playing with people who don't know how to play the game and refuses to explain anything just goes
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Oct 8, 2020 09:27
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Other obstacles to stealth design include the number of players (most stealth games, if they even offer co-op at all, tend to stick with 2 players) and the game's obsession with bag relays. The former means every possible quirk in design (including netcode problems) are exacerbated greatly and the maps need to ideally be both large and intricate enough so that all four players have something to do but also not be too complicated such that you couldn't complete them solo or in a smaller group. The latter causes a lot of otherwise okay stealth maps to turn into grueling tedium because instead of objectives being one and done instead they decided you needed to sneak past the same handful of guards X number of times, which never gets more difficult, it just makes it increasingly more likely to accidentally gently caress everything up. Imagine how much less of a stupid pain in the rear end Framing Frame would be if you didn't have to shuffle around 8 whole bags of coke and then a similar number of bags of gold. And once players have progressed to that point in the heist, like hell are they gonna take risks to make it go faster (because of aforementioned "oops your progress doesn't count" problem) so every bag will get moved only under the absolutely safest of conditions and not a moment sooner. (Also let's not forget the silly and artificial way that every last guard, cop, and civilian in DC will go into panic mode if they see a random dufflebag somewhere a dufflebag isn't normally!!!  )Their design did get better as they went along, with newer heists featuring more things for people to do simultaneously, fewer bag relays, and/or just better overall maps but I don't think they ever fully nailed it. Oh and as a bonus problem I think another thing that really held stealth design back was that they were terrified at the idea of making heists where stealth was in any way, shape, or form meaningfully faster or more rewarding than going loud. Because that would upset the delicate balance of the XP system that ended up mattering a whole lot, the money system that ended up mattering a whole lot, and the loot system that ended up mattering a whole lot. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Oct 8, 2020 |
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Oct 8, 2020 09:46
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The bag relay stuff was tedious but you're right, I think they realized that - even as early as Big Bank they offered alternatives to speed that up. I also think the favors system was a pretty good improvement. Ultimately I think the major improvement are moving to Unreal, which is a massive improvement over Diesel. Hopefully OK learned their lessons in terms of documentation given how much of a mess it was with all of the feature/functions they added through PD2's lifecycle. Stealth needs a redesign and you're absolutely correct about 4 player stealth being a challenge - but it's not an insurmountable one. They also need some significant level rethinking given how utterly garbage the sightlines and blind corners were in some of the later stealth maps (White House, Auction) John Murdoch posted:(Also let's not forget the silly and artificial way that every last guard, cop, and civilian in DC will go into panic mode if they see a random dufflebag somewhere a dufflebag isn't normally!!! On this note, it would be very funny if they put in some kind of a stealthable airport heist where TSA agents were numerous but mostly oblivious, however they will absolutely freak the gently caress out at unattended luggage. Speaking of which, having to have your mask on and gun out to carry a bag is kinda dumb. I understand why they did it, but I feel like that's something that could be improved - however it might also make stealth too easy.
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Oct 8, 2020 13:30
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maswastaken posted:177,662 XP for level 30. About thirty solo heists on Normal doing the absolute bare minimum or like two carries on Overkill.
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Oct 8, 2020 14:25
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What's the right meme format/metaphor to properly convey how a handful of systems, most notably "click on American Police feels amazing," are managing to just power through a ton of terrible systems? I want it to be Atlas holding up the world but in that metaphor the world is a good thing. Maybe Kool Aid man busting through a wall?
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Oct 8, 2020 14:33
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it's groverhouse objectively terribly built but has brought joy to many
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Oct 8, 2020 14:46
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Tulip posted:What's the right meme format/metaphor to properly convey how a handful of systems, most notably "click on American Police feels amazing," are managing to just power through a ton of terrible systems? I want it to be Atlas holding up the world but in that metaphor the world is a good thing. Maybe Kool Aid man busting through a wall? "gamefeel"
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Oct 8, 2020 20:23
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Fellis posted:I remember a few times at the beginning of the game where we tried to plan B with stealth loadouts and sometimes with good players it was a fun challenge. This is like pre-nerf mosconi days mind you Yeah, this is mostly people clearly brand new to the concept and he never tries explaining what the matter is, even after failure. He just throws down the ellipses like every smug fifteen year old we knew back in the day.
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Oct 9, 2020 03:58
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UnknownMercenary posted:I'd rather have Goldfarb over Jules. Neither of them, please. Both were terrible for different reasons. Let's allow someone else a shot.
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Oct 17, 2020 09:33
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listen me and vox are doing our best okay
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Oct 17, 2020 11:11
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Death Vox Car Shop should make bringing sentry guns and/or armor bags a completely viable choice IMO
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Oct 18, 2020 04:09
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Total Crackdown's first playable build should be live and ready for testing in about a week.EorayMel posted:Death Vox Car Shop should make bringing sentry guns and/or armor bags a completely viable choice IMO death vox car shop's not in development yet but the current main planned change is that you have to go in the front door at first, the back spiral staircase never spawns, the manager always uses his mobile behavior, there's an extra guard on the roof, some doors start open (so that civs/guards can path through more areas), and there are more obstacles along the driving route. If you've not touched it in awhile, one of Overkill's most skilled mappers made it his personal project to fix the map before he left the company, and while it's still a weird messy stealth only map with a forced loud escape, it's infinitely more fair and possible than it used to be. (FYI at one point the heist was going to go loud, but a ton of stuff necessary to make it work loud was ripped out of it). Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 08:00
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Well, we are getting another update and more DLC, according to the developer update that just dropped. That bit at the end of the video though Who is ready to grind more infamy!? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_wbaIg-W_O8
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Oct 30, 2020 15:20
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So if I remember correctly on update 100 there was also a massive skill tree cleanup removing poo poo like Brothers Keeper and fully integrating things like Endurance and Fast Hands as default gameplay features, is there any chance they will do that again her with the new infamy poo poo? Will Vlad use (more of) his stolen nukes to help us in the canon way again????????
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Oct 30, 2020 16:01
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