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racist judges can already do that kinda thing with cash bail and btw the aclu doesn't oppose sb10 or prop 25, they called for additional legislation to address racism and bias in pretrial/risk assessment tools turns out they feel the same way about bail bonds H.P. Hovercraft fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 15:38
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They sure can, which is why cash bail is also bad and something that ought to be eliminated. The N. CA chapter of the ACLU is neutral on 25 but rescinded their endorsement of the proposition, S. CA ACLU endorses a No vote. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-southern-california-proposition-endorsements-2020-election
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Oct 12, 2020 15:42
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:They sure can, which is why cash bail is also bad and something that ought to be eliminated. It's an odd argument that we shouldn't vote to get rid of a known discriminatory industry just because the replacement is also potentially discriminatory just because an ideal solution isn't on the ballot. In fact, if you believe that government is an effective tool to remedy systemic discrimination, then you should be in favor of taking as much of the power out of the hands of private industry to do so. The fact that 25 has built-in measures to do self-reporting and correcting is a real plus. And a racist judge is gonna be a racist judge no matter what.
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Oct 12, 2020 15:55
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Glass of Milk posted:It's an odd argument that we shouldn't vote to get rid of a known discriminatory industry just because the replacement is also potentially discriminatory just because an ideal solution isn't on the ballot. I believe the argument is that it entrenches (new) power in the hands of probationary officers et. al. that will be harder to address. Also, there is proven public support for destroying the bail bonds industry, and none proven for taking power away from the courts and just letting people walk. It would essentially be starting the fight from scratch, and who says your allies will follow? If more people end up staying in prison because they no longer have the option to pay bail, have you really won anything at all? However, the bail bond industry will publicly and loudly proclaim victory if the prop is defeated, and one of the shittiest parts of our extremely lovely proposition system is that anything that gets shot down is inevitably seen as the people's will. It could kill momentum on the issue for a long time. On the other hand, there's no one I trust more to say "it's worth the wait" than the people who've dedicated their lives to ending the inhumane California prison system.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:06
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Consider Prop 25 as another entry on the excel sheet titled "gently caress this stupid proposition system get rid of it already gently caress"
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Oct 12, 2020 16:36
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Consider Prop 25 as another entry on the excel sheet titled "gently caress this stupid proposition system get rid of it already gently caress" 
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Oct 12, 2020 16:45
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How are things looking for Proposition 16? It makes me sad to see so much Asian-American opposition to it, but APAs are pretty vulnerable to being manipulated when it comes to opposing affirmative action.
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Oct 12, 2020 16:56
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We’re all vulnerable to manipulation, hence the trap we’re locked in, arguing around the edges while the massive, explosive issues of the state go completely unaddressed. It sucks
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Oct 12, 2020 17:05
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Prop 25: Opposed by: Pretty much every group that works on justice reform and has spend years or decades trying to end cash bail. Supported by: People who have heard cash bail is bad and who's engagement with the subject will begin and likely end with voting on this prop
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Oct 12, 2020 17:49
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Jaxyon posted:Prop 25: Supported by: https://yesoncaprop25.com/bail_reform_supporters Opposed by: https://stopprop25.com/coalition-members-2/ It's pretty clear to me that the endorsements on the Stop Prop 25's website aren't opposed to it due to their commitment to criminal justice reform.
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Oct 12, 2020 18:04
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Bodhidharma posted:Supported by: https://yesoncaprop25.com/bail_reform_supporters I'm talking about among progressives/leftists. I know why the bail industry opposed it.
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Oct 12, 2020 18:10
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Filled out my ballot, just got to walk to the local library to drop it off 
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Oct 12, 2020 18:38
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Consider Prop 25 as another entry on the excel sheet titled "gently caress this stupid proposition system get rid of it already gently caress" Not just 25, feels like half the props on the ballot are glaring examples of how useless and busted it is
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Oct 12, 2020 18:45
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Jaxyon posted:Prop 25: YEP. 100%.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:03
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I feel like a feckless centrist saying this: Re: prop 25. If it fails I feel like it will be a LONG time before there is another good opportunity to improve the system. If we can continue to chip away at the profit motive behind imprisonment I think we can have a better chance at implementing meaningful change. 'cause lol if you think the bail bond industry is going to sit on the sidelines while the perfect bill is being drafted.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:10
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It's more about not entrenching a new, just as bad system that we will be bogged down into for the next 20 years. Honestly, the elimination of cash bail and the popularity thereof is much more likely to successfully come from the election of progressive DAs ala Chesa Boudin and his ilk. It's still very new and there is a lot of fear and trepidation about it from centrists and liberals, so a grassroots movement that builds on it's successes while creating data would probably be the best method.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:13
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CopperHound posted:I feel like a feckless centrist saying this: Trust your feelings.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:14
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...says the Centrist Committee.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:19
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:...says the Centrist Committee. Not to mention all the wealthy bail-bond insurance companies who love exploiting the poor. Anyone opposing Prop. 25 is working hand in hand with those guys, whether they admit it or not. Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 19:28
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drat, could you be more loving wrong?
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Oct 12, 2020 19:32
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:YEP. 100%. Yep, noted shill and former Black Panther activist Barbara Lee falls into this category. 100%.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:34
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I mean sure the millions spent in opposition to Prop. 25 has been funded entirely by the bail bonds industry, which correctly identifies the initiative as a death knell to the industry and a massive boon to the people of California, but maybe they're secret progressives and actually we need accelerationism?
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Oct 12, 2020 19:40
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Kaal posted:I mean sure the millions spent in opposition to Prop. 25 has been funded entirely by the bail bonds industry, which correctly identifies the initiative as a death knell to the industry and a massive boon to the people of California, but maybe they're secret progressives and actually we need accelerationism? I'm sure the criminal justice reform groups are secretly big fans of bail bond industry and have been lying for years about wanting to end it. The important part is we don't discuss whether or not more minorities will end up in jail, because the very important thing here is not the results, but whether or not we engage in surface level discussion of ballot propositions.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:45
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No one here is arguing for accelerationism. As a long time prison abolition activist, the daughter of/former paralegal of a civil rights attorney and future civil rights attorney myself (gonna free all my people and burn the prisons down) I'm saying prop 25 swaps a bad system for another bad system that will be entrenched and puts power into the hands of already broken mechanisms of said bad system is a bad fuckin' idea, and Leftist and abolitionist groups agree with me. Hell, even the DSA agrees, at least in their LA guide.
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Oct 12, 2020 19:49
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Maybe I'm PMSing but this got me a lil teary https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/With-a-love-that-is-filial-It-s-2020-and-15639607.php
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Oct 12, 2020 19:51
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prop 25 is a lovely question where both options you're given permission to vote for are terrible. this isn't uncommon in the usa
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Oct 12, 2020 19:52
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Shear Modulus posted:prop 25 is a lovely question where both options you're given permission to vote for are terrible. this isn't uncommon in the usa Maybe if we let the worse outcome happen jail reform will happen quicker!
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Oct 12, 2020 20:02
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The thing that bothers me about the no on 25 arguments from the left is that they don't seem to propose any alternative. They don't want case-by-case discretionary decisions since judges are racist. But they also don't want broad mechanical decisions since the judicial council might choose a process that is racist. What is left? Restructuring society and abolishing prison is a fine goal, but isn't going to happen on any rapid timescale
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Oct 12, 2020 20:04
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I still haven't got my ballot and it was mailed out 2 weeks ago 
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Oct 12, 2020 20:06
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I'm so torn on Prop 25, it really feels like a lose-lose proposition. I've been trying to educate myself on pre-trial risk assessment tools (PRATs) in general, as I understand that using these tools is not a new concept in CA and the rest of the US. On the one hand, it appears that the majority of CA counties already use PRATs today (https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/pretrial-risk-assessment-in-california.pdf), so I'm not sure how much the passage of 25 would change current practice in the majority of CA jurisdictions? I.e. is it really a choice between No Cash Bail & Yes PRATs (Yes on 25) vs. Yes Cash Bail & No PRATs (No on 25)? For the majority of CA that's already using PRATs, that might be a misleading way to frame the proposition. On the other hand, the more I read about PRATs (links below), the more I understand why so many criminal justice reform groups are against them and against Prop 25, despite the benefit of ending cash bail. It seems like there's no strong evidence that PRATs actually reduce pre-trial incarceration rates overall and at least in some cases it seems that pre-trial incarceration actually has increased after adoption of PRATs, which IMO is a huge failure. https://theappeal.org/new-data-suggests-risk-assessment-tools-have-little-impact-on-pretrial-incarceration/ https://www.pretrial.org/wp-content/uploads/Risk-Statement-PJI-2020.pdf https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-46921-001.html https://theintercept.com/2020/07/12/risk-assessment-tools-bail-reform/ http://news.rice.edu/2018/06/06/study-risk-assessment-tools-may-increase-incarcerations-rates/ https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/1/eaao5580 https://pretrialrisk.com/the-impact/do-they-impact-pretrial-populations/pretrial-populations/ I'm still leaning towards a No on 25 vote, mostly out of deference to the criminal justice reform groups that are coming out against it. Sucks to be on the same side as the bail industry, but that ALONE shouldn't be the driving force behind anyone's vote. My thinking is that with the rising influence of leftists on CA politics, a No on 25 vote won't seen as an endorsement of cash bail and that more equitable reforms will be achievable in the near future, but I'm also admittedly not an expert on CA politics so if others have a strong case why this isn't likely, I'm all ears.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:16
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I'm going to vote yes on 25 because the racist spreadsheet is still going to be less racist than complete judicial fiat PLUS massive for-profit bail bonds intersecting with poverty to both keep people in jail and gently caress them over financially. That chart from Virginia last page was obviously biased, but the end result is still most people who aren't charged with a violent felony getting out on bail, and even the ones who are charged with violent crimes get out on bail if they aren't checking almost every box on the list. And when they get out, they aren't being made homeless by charging them thousands of dollars in bail bonds. It's an improvement.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:16
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:and replaces cash bail system (also bad) with wide discretion for racist judges and inherently racially biased "crime preventing algorithms" to keep poor and brown people in prison in perpetuity, which is why the NAACP, ACLU, Human Rights Watch and SF Public Defenders oppose it. The racist judges can already gently caress over prisoners, my man. Getting rid of cash bail, an antiquated system by which enormous companies generate profit on the back of each arrest, is hugely important. At least get rid of that perverse incentive to cycle people through the system.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:20
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Vox Nihili posted:The racist judges can already gently caress over prisoners, my man. Getting rid of cash bail, an antiquated system by which enormous companies generate profit on the back of each arrest, is hugely important. At least get rid of that perverse incentive to cycle people through the system. I am not a man. Yeah, but prop 25 also puts loving PROBATION OFFICERS in charge of determining whether someone is bonded, which is not the status quo
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Oct 12, 2020 20:23
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Foxfire_ posted:The thing that bothers me about the no on 25 arguments from the left is that they don't seem to propose any alternative. They don't want case-by-case discretionary decisions since judges are racist. But they also don't want broad mechanical decisions since the judicial council might choose a process that is racist. What is left? Restructuring society and abolishing prison is a fine goal, but isn't going to happen on any rapid timescale The thing that bothers you is your own ignorance. Prop 25 increases case by case discretionary decisions. The problem here is your research begins and ends with the wording of the prop. You can go talk to justice activists and find out what they would propose, but I remember the AB5 discussion in this thread and I know how this will go.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:30
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Jaxyon posted:The thing that bothers you is your own ignorance. Someone really vitriolic comes in and screams at the rest of the thread for not voting the way they want them to, cementing opinion against their desired outcome? Yeah, some mild deja vu here too.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:37
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Someone really vitriolic comes in and screams at the rest of the thread for not voting the way they want them to, cementing opinion against their desired outcome? Yeah, some mild deja vu here too. "Hey guys lets maybe consider how this affects the actual people who get hurt instead of performative allyship. Lets hear from folks who are directly involved" Thread: "LOL no Uber bad AB5 is fine...what do you want to marry Uber or something" AB5: "oh look I needed to be fixed with another bill because I was actually bad" The point is people refusing to look at who is hurt by the the changes and instead focusing on the most shallow reading of the laws imaginable.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:42
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FCKGW posted:I still haven't got my ballot and it was mailed out 2 weeks ago Uhh you might want to try for another. Mine only took a day.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:44
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Jaxyon posted:"Hey guys lets maybe consider how this affects the actual people who get hurt instead of performative allyship. Lets hear from folks who are directly involved" No one wants to hear from assholes, even if they are directly involved. That dude got a 100% just probation and had an enormous ego. Not the representative I'd choose for AB5 reform no matter how desperately needed it may be. I'm positive the thread would be perfectly open to hearing about how overbroad restrictions on gig work hurt freelance creatives. Just not from that guy. I'd personally vote No on 25 and laid out my case for why but I'm not going to bash people for being uncertain or leaning the other way because it's a really hard choice, especially for your average voter. And you aren't winning anyone to your cause by doing so.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:49
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:I am not a man. Judges make the decision as to whether someone will be released, just like they currently do. What's wacky is I'm hearing from some that judges will have "too much discretion" and from others that the algorithm will play too large a role. It just sounds like people don't understand how bad the status quo is right now and are terrified of nebulous algorithms (frankly, I'll take ~the algorithm~ over some 80 year-old white guy glancing over at his seventh defendant of the day and making a snap call). It's an easy call for me to yank one of the big profit motives out of the criminal justice system. If you vote No in the hopes that the CA legislature is going to come back with a more progressive bail solution... well, good luck.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:49
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Someone really vitriolic comes in and screams at the rest of the thread for not voting the way they want them to, cementing opinion against their desired outcome? Yeah, some mild deja vu here too. smug smiley growing bigger. Look here children, it's not my job to educate you unwashed ignorant swine. Go do your homework, how about read some books? You know, those things that have ink printed on paper? How about personally phone up nebulous nondescript leaders and talk to every single one. Individual action is the light here ya'll, do some research individually. loving rubes just don't want to learn things these days, just YIKES! *4.5 weeks later* Wow I can't believe everyone didn't do their voluntary homework and wash away their uneducated ignorance using individual action. We'd stop climate change if only the masses would recycle their water bottles.
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Oct 12, 2020 20:49
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