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TheGreatEvilKing posted:So normally Tunon would pull us aside and ask us to gather evidence because he suspects one of the Archons of treason. Only one? ...or are we talking about a totally different Archon, not Ashe and/or the Voices?
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Oct 14, 2020 15:37
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Yeah only one. And it's between Ashe and the Voices.
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Oct 14, 2020 15:39
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kw0134 posted:So apparently that rockslide that locked us in the valley was cleaned up by the Kyrosian Dept of Transportation when no one was looking? And no one bothered to molest us on the schlepp to a totally different city despite two armies that have sworn their undying hatred of us? I have to imagine it was the Earthshakers, who have explicit power over earth and were trapped outside the valley. Obviously still a bit gamey but you could assume they finished their work about the same time you seize the spire.
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Oct 14, 2020 16:43
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Don't care if it was suboptimal gameplay because drat that was satisfying.
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Oct 14, 2020 16:54
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Jefepato posted:Only one? You can actually ask about getting them both and he basically tells you that sure, that would be great but the Court will have enough trouble just focusing on taking one down so don't get your hopes up unless you find some really spectacular evidence.
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Oct 14, 2020 17:04
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queserasera posted:Don't care if it was suboptimal gameplay because drat that was satisfying. yeah that is very much the emotional climax of the path we're on. the game is generous: no matter which path you pick, you will get to do the thing you were trying to do down it. you can moderate the Disfavored. you can usurp Nerat. you can return the Tiers to their previous owners. and you can tell all of them to gently caress off. it's just a question of the prices you have to pay to do so, and the Anarchist path makes you pay on the back end.
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Oct 14, 2020 17:05
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Mr.Misfit posted:Also, all paths presented in the game are bad. That's the point. When you're born from a system of oppression, new forms of rulership will be molded in the style of the old. FR maybe, though even then it turning into an empire within a few decades is telling. But the American Revolution was uh, distinctly evolutionary. The ideas were sometimes novel, but the practical upshot was an evolution on the British model. Plenty of details were different and some were pretty significant evolutions, but at the end of the day you ended up with a democracy-in-name dominated by aristocrats and merchants, with a lot of clear debts to the British model of governance. This is perhaps not surprising, since if Britain had just given the colonies seats in the House of Commons, they probably could have averted the whole thing.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:34
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I've been thinking of playing this game again, with particular interest in the Rebel path. Is that doable while still remaining loyal to Kyros/Tunon and making the rebels orderly vassals in a way neither of the Archons could, or are you basically stuck on "gently caress Kyros" mode
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Oct 14, 2020 18:48
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JT Jag posted:I've been thinking of playing this game again, with particular interest in the Rebel path. Is that doable while still remaining loyal to Kyros/Tunon and making the rebels orderly vassals in a way neither of the Archons could, or are you basically stuck on "gently caress Kyros" mode Yeah. You can tell them "Hey for legal reasons you're officially surrendering to me as Kyros' agent and joining the Empire, cool?" and they're perfectly fine with that since they still get to be the local people in charge.
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Oct 14, 2020 20:06
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Ultiville posted:FR maybe, though even then it turning into an empire within a few decades is telling. But the American Revolution was uh, distinctly evolutionary. The ideas were sometimes novel, but the practical upshot was an evolution on the British model. Plenty of details were different and some were pretty significant evolutions, but at the end of the day you ended up with a democracy-in-name dominated by aristocrats and merchants, with a lot of clear debts to the British model of governance. This is perhaps not surprising, since if Britain had just given the colonies seats in the House of Commons, they probably could have averted the whole thing. fun history digression: the first attempt at an american system of governance failed so loving badly it got a bunch of rich, drunk libertarians to say 'maybe we need more central power.' do you have any idea how bad you have to gently caress up to get libertarians to admit someone should be allowed to be the boss of them? do you have any idea how much worse it has to be for rich ones to admit that? THAT is how bad the Articles of Confederation were. presidents number two and three are the only signers of the Declaration of Independence to become president. they are also the only two who were safely overseas for the duration of the Articles. these facts are related.
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Oct 14, 2020 21:43
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So I assume you get wrath with Tunon if you say you did what you did because the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus suck instead of because you technically satisfied the terms of the edict? Or is it worse, you being on thin ice as it is?
Rawkking fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Oct 14, 2020 |
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Oct 14, 2020 22:05
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:presidents number two and three are the only signers of the Declaration of Independence to become president. they are also the only two who were safely overseas for the duration of the Articles. these facts are related. Boiling down the history of the early presidents to just the Articles of Confederation is pretty reductive. For starters, not everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence even wanted the job, but I think more pertinent is that by 1809, when Thomas Jefferson's second term ended, nearly all of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence were dead, or close enough to it that they were by that point too infirm to run. Of the few who still had a couple decades before their deaths, a couple of those were judges, and had cushy lifetime appointments, and the rest all had successful political (EDIT: or business) careers, even if they didn't get to be president. As to the two who did become president, I'd say it has less to do with the Articles of Confederation and more to do with John Adams having been George Washington's VP and it was literally the first presidential election ever and nobody was expecting Washington to step down after two terms so they more or less picked him because he was the easy choice, and Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence and helped secure French military assistance during the Revolution (not to mention Jefferson fought tooth and nail to get to that point, it's not like he was just minding his own business when the people demanded he be president).
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Oct 14, 2020 22:37
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Rawkking posted:So I assume you get wrath with Tunon if you say you did what you did because the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus suck instead of because you technically satisfied the terms of the edict? Or is it worse, you being on thin ice as it is? Tunon kinda knows that the Archons are up to no good from the missive he sent us during the attack. In a very weird way by showing them both up we've freed him of the responsibility to decide which is a better general per Lantry. Note that he's not entirely displeased with the results and he agrees we were justified. Unfortunately for everyone, Tunon is shackled by Kyros' laws as the number 1 enforcer, and Kyros writing the laws to give the Archons a ton of leeway means Tunon and Mark can't just execute them both. Right now hypothetically Tunon could call Ashe, Fifth Eye, Cleopatra, Verse, Barik, and Lantry and convict Nerat based on his confession to torturing and murdering Ashe's son - but that's still not enough to get through Archon's privilege. This will become more clear on literally any other route.
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Oct 14, 2020 22:40
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All of Tarkis Arri's speech on a noble death has me wondering; where does religion fit into the world of Tyranny? While i understand why a more cynical take on a CRPG setting might downplay the importance of gods and religion, but its sorta suprising for them to take such a back seat in a seemingly bronze age society. In some ways Kyros seems to take the place of the official omnipresent enforcer of social norms, but as events have demostrated, their rules don't appear to be given a huge amount of weight.
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Oct 14, 2020 23:57
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JustaDamnFool posted:All of Tarkis Arri's speech on a noble death has me wondering; where does religion fit into the world of Tyranny? While i understand why a more cynical take on a CRPG setting might downplay the importance of gods and religion, but its sorta suprising for them to take such a back seat in a seemingly bronze age society. In some ways Kyros seems to take the place of the official omnipresent enforcer of social norms, but as events have demostrated, their rules don't appear to be given a huge amount of weight. From what's known, the Archons have basically taken on the role of deities for people, even before Kyros. Kinda makes sense. You don't need to invent fictional beings that control the elements when there are actual beings that do just that all around you. As I recall, there's a few other things of note on that topic, but they're all in spoiler territory and we'll get to them soon enough.
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Oct 15, 2020 00:25
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JustaDamnFool posted:All of Tarkis Arri's speech on a noble death has me wondering; where does religion fit into the world of Tyranny? While i understand why a more cynical take on a CRPG setting might downplay the importance of gods and religion, but its sorta suprising for them to take such a back seat in a seemingly bronze age society. In some ways Kyros seems to take the place of the official omnipresent enforcer of social norms, but as events have demostrated, their rules don't appear to be given a huge amount of weight. People pray to Kyros. This is very much a world without God - there is only Kyros. Xarn posted:Wrong portrait? Fixed!
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Oct 15, 2020 01:19
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:People pray to Kyros. This is very much a world without God - there is only Kyros. Other Archons from regions outside of Kyros' empire (well, formerly outside of it) are said in the lore to have had cults and worshipers of their own, which means that, even without Kyros, there would be no "gods" in the sense of fictional beings invented to explain natural phenomena. And, in fact, that system exists to an extent even with Kyros, the Earthshakers and Sirin's worshipers/followers/mindslaves being the most prominent examples within the scope of the game (keep in mind, the helmet keeps her from totally controlling people, so her cult is at least partially willing). The Archons are essentially a pantheon, as far as the peasants are concerned*, with Kyros taking her place above them, as chief deity. *Of course, deliberately forming a cult (without masking it as, say, an organized military regiment or marauding warband) is a good way to get a visit from Bleden Mark, but the peasants refrain from non-Kyros Archon worship in much the same way people in the real world refrain from breaking the speed limit (i.e., only when the cops are watching).
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Oct 15, 2020 02:20
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A sufficiently powerful wizard is indistinguishable from a god.
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Oct 15, 2020 03:06
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And just as capricious, cruel and strangely obsessed with people's sex life.
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Oct 15, 2020 03:28
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Radio Free Kobold posted:A sufficiently powerful wizard is indistinguishable from a god. I would actually in this case contend that the difference between the Archons and "wizards", as they're commonly understood, is important here. Wizards, generally, are known to be manipulating forces external to themselves (both the wizards themselves and anyone with a reasonable understanding of magic would be aware of this), which would require explanation (leading to people inventing gods). The Archons, on the other hand, are using power that is truly intrinsic to themselves (or is at least indistinguishable from intrinsic power). On top of that, their powers are literally the sole source of magic in this world. In essence, they may well be gods, as far as anyone knows.
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Oct 15, 2020 03:41
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There is a very personal reason Barik hangs around even when he's pissed. Although if he's pissed off enough by the end of Chapter 1 he can and will give you the finger and march off back to Ashe unless you can legal your way around it like the fightlawyer you are. Also Barik's armor isn't just a fused suit of armor. It's got swords and shield and other bits wrapped around it as well. And somehow Barik can control the ghosts of those swords with his brain. No... really. Also I really really like Tunon as a character. Despite everything, he's really trying to do right within the rules that he's given.
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Oct 15, 2020 05:26
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Tunon's not just trying to do right, he genuinely thinks he's a representative of Justice - just the highest officer of the Court. It's part of who the Archons are to be absolutely convinced that they're right and the world is wrong (and, most of the time, to have the world bend over backwards to agree.)
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Oct 15, 2020 05:33
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We haven't even gotten to the best parts of Lantry, and he's already demonstrated himself as the best party member. Great magician, extremely perceptive of what's going on around him, and also instantly willing to switch sides to whoever promises to keep him alive.
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Oct 15, 2020 13:26
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hrm. I've some thoughts on religion in Tyranny I'll get to later, but for now I do think there are religions in the setting that aren't about archons/kyros. said religions just aren't important/relevant to the story et large or the game beyond maybe a footnote in some scholars records.
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Oct 15, 2020 16:40
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One thing I don't really get about this part is how everyone starts looking at you in awe for "breaking the Edict." Even Lantry is blown away, and when you ask him if anyone else has broken Edicts before, he says that some people have made Edicts end, but only because Kyros gave a very specific escape clause in the Edict's wording and someone managed to pull it off. But he acts like what Cleo did is somehow different, even though that's literally what we just did. Kyros's servant now holds Ascension Hall and the Edict is therefore cancelled. What did we do differently?
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Oct 15, 2020 20:30
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IIRC people don't usually break the same Edict they proclaimed.
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Oct 15, 2020 20:31
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Bear in mind people were surprised Cleo even survived proclaiming her second Edict. She's pronounced two and broken one; that's the sort of magical channelling a person shouldn't be able to endure.
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Oct 15, 2020 20:37
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This is also nicely called out in a conversation we would be having about now if we were on (any) different path. 
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Oct 15, 2020 20:45
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I think it was meant that people made edicts that were already doing their effects end? We straight up prevented one from firing off.
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Oct 15, 2020 21:58
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There's some mumbo jumbo when we break the edict in the most recent update...TheGreatEvilKing posted:
I guess a normal person would explode or something instead of just floating off the ground for a few seconds?
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Oct 15, 2020 23:11
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: I lay claim to Ascension Hall, let us be free of this Edict.
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My interpretation is that some people invoke one edict in a lifetime, and some resolve one edict in a lifetime, but Cleopatra has invoked two and resolved one of those. That's more magic than mere mortals should be safely exposed to.
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Oct 15, 2020 23:39
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Being the invoker and the breaker is probably also unprecedented.
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Oct 16, 2020 00:12
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This whole "Edict being averted, everybody involved not dying" was 100% not supposed to happen.
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Oct 16, 2020 01:25
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sunken fleet posted:I guess a normal person would explode or something instead of just floating off the ground for a few seconds? I like to think that Cleo had the thought of "This has a %95 chance of killing me, but I'll end the edict and, if it does kill, me then at least I'll be both be free of these jackasses and giving them the bird from the afterlife."
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Oct 16, 2020 01:27
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Radio Free Kobold posted:This whole "Edict being averted, everybody involved not dying" was 100% not supposed to happen. Actually, for reasons I'll elaborate on much later, I believe that Kyros fully accounted for the Fatebinder possibly succeeding and averting the Edict without themselves or either Archon dying, and it's everything that happened after the Edict was broken that's unexpected. I'll also elaborate on the significance of the difference, also much later in the game.
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Oct 16, 2020 01:54
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EclecticTastes posted:Actually, for reasons I'll elaborate on much later, I believe that Kyros fully accounted for the Fatebinder possibly succeeding and averting the Edict without themselves or either Archon dying, and it's everything that happened after the Edict was broken that's unexpected. I'll also elaborate on the significance of the difference, also much later in the game. Yeah, it doesn't seem like it was meant to be an impossible task. Kyros was certainly comfortable with the possibility of everyone in the valley dying if they couldn't get their poo poo together, but "put down the outmatched rebels you already defeated before" wasn't an insurmountable challenge and they probably wouldn't have given the edict an exit clause if they didn't want anyone getting out of it. I was put off during the trial when I was accused of treachery for Rules Lawyering the Edict in the Blade Grave. Playing as a loyalist, it seemed almost heretical to suggest that it even would have been possible for me to have somehow outwitted the Overlord. Kyros was all powerful and infallible, and the abatement of the edict was proof that their will was satisfied.
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Oct 16, 2020 03:11
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Act 1 Postmortem: The Seeker of Power Or, the trains DON'T run on time Tyranny, at it's core, is a game about why the titular concept cannot stand. The game is marketed as an examination of how evil wins, and I fully believe that's a mistake because the game isn't about the triumph of evil, the game is about how evil is self-destructive and ultimately collapses as the selfish, evil people running the regime turn on each other. There is another aspect to this that I hope the adventures of Cleopatra have made clear - intelligent and capable individuals cannot win under a tyrannical system, because the system discourages loyalty by design. Incompetence Is A Feature, Not A Bug If there is one word to describe all the followers of Kyros we encountered in Act I, it's incompetent.  We might have been able to get something useful out of the enemy captain, but the Disfavored reacted like Confederate troops who just got defeated by a black man. From the very beginning, the Scarlet Chorus and the Disfavored gently caress up everything they touch. This theme reverberates throughout Act 1, from the two constantly bickering and not suppressing the rebellion, to the failed river crossing where the already undermanned Disfavored lose nearly an entire unit, to the Scarlet Chorus insisting that we do their job for them and capture the enemy captain, to... I could go on for pages discussing just how much the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus hosed up, but as it turns out, I already have! We can discuss how the Earthshakers didn't bother to send their mages, we can discuss how the Scarlet Chorus is completely unsuited to act as an occupying force and pisses everyone off, we can discuss how the Disfavored continually keep getting destroyed by the Vendrien Guard because they can't believe that the "mongrels" are actually their equals in combat.  Ashe assured us the Earthshakers could "totally" demolish the fort, but here we see two Sages holding up the entire Disfavored legion. Two guys, and the Disfavored's inability to change clothes. Yet the people responsible for this kind of incompetence are allowed to hold the position of "Kyros' most loyal general" and "spymaster". Why? Earlier in the game posted:
This is something we see on a small scale within the Scarlet Chorus, and on a larger scale over the whole conquest. Nerat is incapable of forming a coherent plan without descending into petty cruelty for cruelty's sake and thus cannot rely on allies. Graven Ashe is proud and easily baited and can be manipulated to go after a target. Their inability to win over the hearts and minds of the Tiersmen is a feature. Why would Kyros give the Tiers to someone who could use it to raise an effective army, or use its farms to feed their existing troops in preparation for an insurrection? We see how much more effective the Scarlet Chorus got when it incorporated the School of Wild Wrath, and that was one school of mages out of the many running around the Tiers. Someone actually popular could have led a massive insurrection that caused trouble for Kyros. It's the same concept as Stalin eliminating all the competent military personnel and then breaking down when he realized Hitler was invading and his army crumpled. Now, you might be asking, why can't Kyros motivate competent individuals with a big lie or something? Well... Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes The only thing Kyros can offer is the power to abuse others, conditional on remaining subservient to Kyros. We see this in the contest for rulership of the Tiers - only one Archon can win, two are up for promotion, fight amongst yourselves to distract you from any resentment toward Kyros over your son's death or having to constantly travel and make war on people you don't care about. This in turn creates a perverse incentive for the people who shouldn't have power but want it desperately to step up and claim it. Is it any wonder our two Archons are a racist old quasi-fascist strongman and a murderous sadist who delights in forcing his underlings to fight to the death? These are the kind of people who seek power over others to validate their own ego. There is no space for the reformer who wants to feed his people or the healer who wants to build hospitals. The laws are not in place to protect the weak, the laws are there to afford privilege to Kyros' favored and their hangers on. Kyros offers nothing to believe in or strive for other than the lust for power - but having offered this incentive, Kyros cannot trust anyone as only they can hold the ultimate prize. By encouraging everyone to vie for power but denying them the fulfillment of their ambition, Kyros MUST keep the ambitious turned against each other and so sows the culture of suspicion and distrust that ultimately makes loyalty futile. As part of the game Kyros must be able to eliminate the players, not just for the safety of the Overlord but as a potential reward for their enemies. This does not engender loyalty, so effectively Kyros' servants are (for the most part) an entire cadre of ambitious backstabbers kept in check only by fear of each other and the vaunted power of the Overlord. Even if some highly capable individual came into the conquest with a belief that Kyros brings unity, prosperity, and peace, they too get pulled into the power struggle and have to fight for power just to stay alive.  This is the kind of crap Kyros encourages. For bonus points Salveros got exiled to the Scarlet Chorus camp for the heresy of suggesting that the Chorus and Disfavored would be better off working together. Kyros only has to gently caress up once and the entire house of cards comes crashing down. The Will to Power This sets the stage for the entire first act. The Fatebinder starts the game as someone who is a dedicated servant of Kyros, someone who has committed horrific atrocities in the name of the Overlord but also has been exposed to the "ideals" of the Kyrosian empire - the rule of law. As we go through the first act, that sham falls apart. The Archons, our lawful superiors, shift from being powerful and legendary figures who always triumph in the name of the Overlord to being worthless petty bickerers seeking power they don't deserve and can't take. Their behavior exposes the dreams of unity, peace, and prosperity as a total sham and reveals the goal of the Empire is to wield power for power's sake - and even faced with the threat of annihilation they cannot put their bickering aside and deal with their pressing real-world problem. Thus to solve this, the Fatebinder is forced to step in and take the power necessary to continue the offensive - whether that's recruiting the Vendrien Guard as their private army, betraying everyone and storming the fort themselves to gain the patronage of Bleden Mark, or ingratiating themselves with one of the two armies to earn the loyalty of their troops and the esteem of the commanding Archon, the Fatebinder ensures that not only are they gaining the power to end the crisis, but now as a major player in the game they must get more power or be destroyed by their newfound enemies, all with Kyros' encouragement. Not only that, but Kyros has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the reward for loyalty and service is death.  Erenyos is not subtle about this, but the game has been quietly building up this point when the Fatebinder's possible ideals all get thrown out the window. That last part will have major consequences for all of Terratus by the end of the game. Unlike a lot of games I've LPed, Tyranny is actually able to convey its major themes without beating the player over the head with them. There is enough consistency in the writing that the game is able to get its point across. It's not elegant writing by any means, but it serves its purpose of exploring the titular Tyranny. What I find just as interesting is how much seems to have slipped over the heads of the video game critics - a lot of people seem to believe the game is a power fantasy about being a powerful evil lieutenant of Kyros the invincible overlord, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. The Fatebinder starts the game with the responsibility to end the rebellion, but not the actual power to do so.  If we had the power of Tunon or Kyros we would not have to make this choice, but we cannot get close to the power of either without making these kinds of choices. To gain the power to change the system we must work within the system, and if we refuse to do something abhorrent, well, we get executed and some other aspiring tyrant joins the game. 1984 posted:'If, for example, it would somehow serve our interests to throw sulphuric acid in a child's face--are you prepared to do that?' We shall see what price Cleopatra is willing to pay as the game goes on.
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Oct 16, 2020 03:32
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: Most of the 'soldiers' in the Scarlet Chorus are little more than farmers and children armed with rusted forks. Makes them easier to control.
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It's worth noting that one of the main things that keeps Kyros in power is that she doesn't need a special scroll to proclaim Edicts, that's just the way he makes it possible to use them remotely, because their primary weakness seems to be that their range is limited to earshot (though the area they affect can be much larger). There are also implications that Kyros is a superb warrior, for when it might take too long to call down a Biblical plague on someone's head. This all reinforces the importance (for Kyros) of keeping all the Archons at each other's throats. No single Archon could hope to match Kyros' power*, but if they were to unify, they might manage to survive whatever retaliatory Edict gets unleashed long enough to actually win. *though someone got close
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Oct 16, 2020 04:53
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the one thing that Tyranny is missing from its examination of evil is the role of the sycophant the Iron Marshal does a good job as the voice of a competent person attempting to make the best of their role in a horribly dysfunctional organization, and also as a terrifying Preview of Coming Attraction for anyone who goes down the Disfavored path, but we don't see the unrepentant, fawning toady anywhere. which is weird, because they're the one exception to the rules laid out above. willingness to lick boot, and totally render yourself subservient to those above you in the hierarchy, is traditionally a GREAT way to climb the ranks. you'll never be in the big seat, but you'll also never be viewed as a threat. sure you're not great at your job, but you're also not someone who Kyros has to worry about getting big ideas. Tunon is fetishization of order; Ashe is fetishization of militaristic pride, Nerat is fetishization of cruelty and terror for its own sake, and Bleden Mark, well, we'll learn what Bleden Mark's deal is. all of these are key components of the tyrant's rise to power! but for some reason, they left out the inveterate suckup, and the absence feels grating. make them the Archon of Atrophy if you want to make the metaphor stupidly blatant, someone sent to "help with the administration" of the Tiers during the crisis, but functionally to serve as a reminder that even Tunon has to worry about Kyros breathing down his neck. this has the bonus of making the Court of Tunon three Archons instead of two, allowing for all manner of dumb 2v1 manipulations. basically copy/place Atsura from Pillars of Eternity 2 into this game and get rid of the 'competent administrator" part of the characterization, leaving only that he is constantly saying what he thinks the other person wants to hear, a beautiful, ennervating force of stasis, who's just here to make sure that nobody messes up the sweet ride he's got going.
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Oct 16, 2020 05:00
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I never pay attention to critics, some actually thought this game was supposed to be a power fantasy? God the entire game is the Fatebinder stumbling from crisis to crisis like a drunk at a Christmas party and somehow managing to fail upwards. I have my own theory on why Kyros gave that Edict specifically to the Fatebinder. Which also involves her having control of the Spires, which would be why he made the Oldwalls illegal to go into. And also much more. But thats all way down the line.
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Oct 16, 2020 05:42
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