|
Yeah GI isn’t actually a fairly complicated game. It’s you know a phone game so I don’t know what that’s about
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 22:46 |
|
|
I played Vesperia in demo booths way back when it wasn't out yet for the 360 and the thing I really remember from then was that the shift into free running had a little bit of lag compared to Abyss which made it a lot less fluid. Having recently played the PS3 version (so with all the stuff, but not the HD remaster) right after Berseria, it definitely had a different feel to it. The only annoying part of the battle system to me was not having the expanded arte selection until a while into the game but that was about it. I did play through the entire game co-op though, so there was never really a point where we would bother to flesh out single character combos because we could get by by just alternating strings to cover gaps.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
If you didn't swap into Magilou in Berseria to absolutely destroy mages and cackle with glee every time I dunno man Man, Zestria made me hate mage type enemies so much
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:29
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:no, the way vesperia handles it is an objective con. it's okay to gate skills behind progress or leveling. the tales series calls those, Artes. Okay I said I was done but I have to argue this: For something to be an objective con, it has to be a con for everyone. Otherwise it's subjective. I like the way Vesperia handled the acquisition of core combat mechanics, so it has to be a subjective con.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
Hyper Inferno posted:I did play through the entire game co-op though, so there was never really a point where we would bother to flesh out single character combos because we could get by by just alternating strings to cover gaps. not to say the game's impossibly hard or anything, but it just feels bad to be punished for trying to play it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2020 23:54
|
|
|
I can’t image someone enjoying the fact you don’t have what is effectively the games dodge
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
You don't need them in Vesperia, imho. Backstep was always the first skill to get ditched when I needed more skill points anyways. Why dodge when you have all these gels and Estelle spamming heals?
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:11
|
|
|
I've been thinking that Vesperia's issues might actually make it a good game for someone who is new to the Tales flavor of ARPG. Its narrative is a whirlwind of failed execution but it maintains momentum and at least presents interesting concepts, and the characters get some fun interactions (the entire ball arc still sucks dog piss though). It feels very exciting and epic when you're playing through it and only collapses when you look back on it and realize that most of it didn't go anywhere. As for combat, starting with "press O to trade whacks" and getting drip-fed the actual gameplay over the course of several hours may actually work in its favor if you have nothing to compare it to. Berseria, on the other hand, is very much the end point of a specific 10 years of Tales, and the only reason it's not a game made entirely of weeds to get lost in is because it doesn't really demand you optimize it deeply, which would bluntly be a nightmare (c.f. Zestiria). It does have an actual story, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:13
|
|
|
Infinity Gaia posted:Okay I said I was done but I have to argue this: For something to be an objective con, it has to be a con for everyone. Otherwise it's subjective. I like the way Vesperia handled the acquisition of core combat mechanics, so it has to be a subjective con. no, locking the player out of core features of BASIC CONTROLS is a universally objective con. think about it this way: let's imagine a super mario bros that doesn't let you dash until 1-2. is the dash necessary to clear 1-1? no. would you say that's objectively bad? yes, yes you would. you're looking at this backwards, not giving a poo poo about this is your subjective pro Fur20 fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Oct 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:25
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:no, locking the player out of core features of BASIC CONTROLS is a universally objective con. think about it this way: let's imagine a super mario bros that doesn't let you dash until 1-2. is the dash necessary to clear 1-1? no. would you say that's objectively bad? yes, yes you would. The backstep is not a necessary basic control. I barely ever used it, personally. Not comparable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:30
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:no, locking the player out of core features of BASIC CONTROLS is a universally objective con. think about it this way: let's imagine a super mario bros that doesn't let you dash until 1-2. is the dash necessary to clear 1-1? no. would you say that's objectively bad? yes, yes you would. what the gently caress does it matter if it's objective or not
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:30
|
|
|
Caphi posted:I've been thinking that Vesperia's issues might actually make it a good game for someone who is new to the Tales flavor of ARPG. Its narrative is a whirlwind of failed execution but it maintains momentum and at least presents interesting concepts, and the characters get some fun interactions (the entire ball arc still sucks dog piss though). It feels very exciting and epic when you're playing through it and only collapses when you look back on it and realize that most of it didn't go anywhere. As for combat, starting with "press O to trade whacks" and getting drip-fed the actual gameplay over the course of several hours may actually work in its favor if you have nothing to compare it to. vesperia does the opposite of maintain momentum, i don't think i can count the amount of stuff in act 2 that killed the game for me like honestly act 1 is very barren in terms of plot but i didn't really mind it and the finale of it was pretty fun, act 2 was like. every time the plot started to matter again it actively slowed the game down more The Colonel fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Oct 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:35
|
|
|
Amppelix posted:why are you getting caught up on this completely nonsense argument i dunno man what the gently caress does it matter that i replied to it or not
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
Tons of games gradually unlock game mechanics. Think of every game where a button doesn't work or an option is grayed out until the tutorial explains it. Hell, there's an entire genre--metroidvanias--based around the idea that you have to expend effort to unlock functions that would be extremely basic and available from the start in a traditional platformer. In an RPG, tying those mechanics not to a tutorial or plot progress, but to levelups, makes a lot of sense to me. A tutorial that gradually makes you stronger by telling you more and more about how the game functions is a lot like a levelup system, where you get gradually stronger over time. I haven't play Vesperia so I can't speak to the specific numbers and time involved. But the core concept seems sound. Probably something messing with this is that a large chunk of Vesperia's players were experienced Tales fans who already understood all the mechanics and didn't really need any tutorials or gradual unlocking of mechanics. If it had been a brand new system, or if the things that were unlocked by leveling up were brand-new features to Vesperia rather than returning features, I bet it would rankle a lot less.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Probably something messing with this is that a large chunk of Vesperia's players were experienced Tales fans who already understood all the mechanics and didn't really need any tutorials or gradual unlocking of mechanics. If it had been a brand new system, or if the things that were unlocked by leveling up were brand-new features to Vesperia rather than returning features, I bet it would rankle a lot less. there's a second layer to it. so you know ff9's ability system right? vesperia does this. backstep needs to be equipped, and monopolizes ability points you could be spending on passives just to unlock a basic movement control. i think guard also needs to be equipped 
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
The unlocks in Vespy are slow and they also take up a spot in your very limited points system
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:42
|
|
|
Also almost every ARPG I can think of locks basic controls behind tutorials these days or grants them as you level up/move on in the game or has you buy them with in game currency. Notably a lot of critically acclaimed games do this like Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Nioh or every Platinum game ever made do this. People singling this out for Vesperia like its some outrageous and unique failing is weird.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:43
|
|
|
i mean the problem is that tales of vesperia locks down so many of your capabilities right at the start that the first few bosses in the game are legitimately a challenge entirely because you just don't have enough basic abilities to fight them the first boss in tales of vesperia is supposed to be a joke that yuri clowns on instantly. but it's entirely possible to lose to it because yuri just does not move very fast, do very much damage or have basic evasion abilities like, being able to get up off the ground slightly faster after being knocked down. like you're so gimped at the start of vesperia that playing on harder difficulties is straight up an exercise in frustration. devil may cry games lock down abilities but they don't make you wait like an hour to get a basic dodge function
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:44
|
|
|
Yeah to be honest I don’t think it’s even fair to call Vespy an ARPG. It plays more like a turn based game really
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:there's a second layer to it. so you know ff9's ability system right? vesperia does this. Lol I could see a fun game that offers you 5 "core" mechanics and tells you pick 3 being fun but Tales doesn't seem like the place for that
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:46
|
|
|
The absolute "necessities" (like I said, I don't think you really need Backstep or Guard or any of those so-called necessities) come extremely early in the game. Like, I'm pretty sure Backstep is literally the tutorial skill. The stuff that's unlocked later is way more tangential unless you're Judith, I guess. Edit: I just double checked a guide, Backstep costs all of 2 points while Guard isn't even an equippable skill, you just have it. Infinity Gaia fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Amppelix posted:why are you getting caught up on this completely nonsense argument TWD is not good at posting
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Locking mechanics until later in the game isn't Vesperia's problem. It's that hitting buttons and fighting things isn't fun until like 70% of the way through the game when you finally unlock skills that make characters feel like they're functioning as meant to. And even then the combat's not like great it's just decent, I still found it worse than Abyss.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:48
|
|
|
I tried Vesperia for a while, stopped at the big wolf boss with the stun flowers, and then I got distracted by other games that didn't feel slow as hell to play.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:49
|
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:Locking mechanics until later in the game isn't Vesperia's problem. It's that hitting buttons and fighting things isn't fun until like 70% of the way through the game when you finally unlock skills that make characters feel like they're functioning as meant to. And even then the combat's not like great it's just decent, I still found it worse than Abyss. Well, agree to disagree. I had fun right from the start trying to maximize the amount of sword spins I could tack on in a single Yuri combo. It's certainly more fun than Berseria to me, and it's not nostalgia goggles, I replayed most of the series last year and Vesperia, while not my favorite (that's still Graces F) still has a pretty high ranking.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:51
|
|
|
like in this comparison, devil may cry 1 is still a game where from the very beginning you can lock onto enemies and side roll left and right. devil may cry 3 lets you use trickster from the very beginning with the more advanced dodge techniques being the unlocks, devil may cry 4 makes you buy similar advanced techniques but still gives you the basic tools to avoid damage and build combos from the start, even loving dmc2 lets you use dodges from the startInfinity Gaia posted:The absolute "necessities" (like I said, I don't think you really need Backstep or Guard or any of those so-called necessities) come extremely early in the game. Like, I'm pretty sure Backstep is literally the tutorial skill. The stuff that's unlocked later is way more tangential unless you're Judith, I guess. the backstep is the first thing you unlock but it's still not an ability you have for the first two fights basically. again, you need to wait several hours to get the ability to just recover from getting knocked down without just staring at your character lying on the ground for five seconds tales of the abyss has some things you could make a similar argument about having to unlock but in that game you start out with two characters and luke moves like 1.5x as fast as yuri so it's not something you notice compared to how drawn out everything in vesperia feels. even symphonia's combat generally moves at a faster pace and gives you more basic tools to work with from the start
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:51
|
|
|
I was specifically thinking of games like Wonderful 101 where you absolutely do need to buy the basic dodge and defend skills
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:54
|
|
|
Infinity Gaia posted:Well, agree to disagree. I had fun right from the start trying to maximize the amount of sword spins I could tack on in a single Yuri combo. It's certainly more fun than Berseria to me, and it's not nostalgia goggles, I replayed most of the series last year and Vesperia, while not my favorite (that's still Graces F) still has a pretty high ranking. That's fair, combat really hurt the game for me though and felt like a huge step down from Abyss which y'know is mostly just a serviceable and solid battle system. Yuri's just so slow, same with the rest of the party.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:55
|
|
|
Zore posted:I was specifically thinking of games like Wonderful 101 where you absolutely do need to buy the basic dodge and defend skills i never played w101, but if i had this would've also been a complaint. but it was on the wiiu lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
you can get the dodges in mgr and wonderful 101 around the very start without having to grind xp levels though, and the fact that you have to buy them is one of the things people generally point out as a weird decision that doesn't add much like, bayonetta starts you out with a dodge and the thing you need to unlock is the parry but the parry isn't as core of a mechanic in bayonetta as the dodge is for casual players the things in platinum games that you need to unlock that make sense are the things you'd compare more to artes in a tales game than to vesperia's skills The Colonel fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Oct 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
I mean people have criticized platinum games for locking dodge. You get them early to so what’s even the point
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
kirbysuperstar posted:demon fang drat I must be a genius double demon fang
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:That's fair, combat really hurt the game for me though and felt like a huge step down from Abyss which y'know is mostly just a serviceable and solid battle system. Yuri's just so slow, same with the rest of the party. It's just a different combat speed. It's an RPG, not a character action game, geez. I vastly prefer the speed of something like Vesperia to the "I can't even tell what's happening" speeds of Berseria. The Colonel posted:like in this comparison, devil may cry 1 is still a game where from the very beginning you can lock onto enemies and side roll left and right. devil may cry 3 lets you use trickster from the very beginning with the more advanced dodge techniques being the unlocks, devil may cry 4 makes you buy similar advanced techniques but still gives you the basic tools to avoid damage and build combos from the start, even loving dmc2 lets you use dodges from the start You're comparing an RPG to a character action game. Completely different genres, I don't even know why one would even make that comparison as if it's relevant. PS: You get the Ukemi equivalent at Halure which while not immediately upon starting the game is still EXTREMELY early.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
Infinity Gaia posted:It's just a different combat speed. It's an RPG, not a character action game, geez. I vastly prefer the speed of something like Vesperia to the "I can't even tell what's happening" speeds of Berseria. i was literally responding to someone making that comparison the reason i was making the comparison was to explain that the comparison does not make sense
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 00:59
|
|
|
Electric Phantasm posted:drat I must be a genius check this poo poo fierce demon fang
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 01:00
|
|
|
The Colonel posted:i was literally responding to someone making that comparison Ah, fair enough.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 01:01
|
|
|
The Colonel posted:you can get the dodges in mgr and wonderful 101 around the very start without having to grind xp levels though, and the fact that you have to buy them is one of the things people generally point out as a weird decision that doesn't add much I always kinda thought the idea was to do it as a tutorial for buying moves since they're so cheap. But, it's not actually part of any of the tutorials. It just doesn't tell you about it at all in MGR. It's bizzare
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 01:01
|
|
|
They also don’t make it clear the dodge in MGR is a dodge. Don’t know what that was about
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 01:04
|
|
|
I think the reason I'm so defensive of Vesperia is that it was the last Tales game that was actually slow and chill. Ever since then the games have trended faster and faster and I miss the oldschool TP-based more RPG-ish style.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 01:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 22:46 |
|
|
the xillia games have tp systems though... and their mechanics are still based around rpg stuff, if anything to a fault with how fixated some of them get on elemental weaknesses
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2020 01:08
|
|