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I think the difference is that I don't even know what I am supposed to understand. I understand leftists, because leftism puts a lot of weight on mutual sympathy, but as you say, right wingers don't seem to do that, so is the reason I can't understand them because I am not a golem made entirely out of spite? Like yes I have a capacity for spite, I do actually think vengeance is a valid thing to want and I will argue that in the case of mass crimes then hanging people or whatever is actually the best option, because I believe it is possible for somebody to do things so utterly reprehensible that the act of execution is better than letting them live, people who orchestrate the death and immiseration of countless others. But I can't get to the point where I want that to be something you do to like, loving shoplifters or benefits claimants or whatever the mail reading freaks want. Or even most murderers? Like I am more inclined to believe that someone would kill out of momentary rage or desperation than I am to believe they're just a natural killer in 99% of cases. And clearly the correct emotion to feel there is sympathy. I do not understand someone who does not work that way. Like at what point does someone's ardent belief in punishment and cruelty-centered society make them indistinguishable from someone who just wants bad things to happen for the sake of it? Is it that weird that I don't understand people like that? Is it weird that I think they're just like that in all their interactions? That they probably beat their families and abuse service workers for fun? How am I supposed to understand people who appear to consistently favour maximising human suffering at every possible opportunity? Seemingly not even to an end? Seemingly just because they think the suffering is the point? Like who looks at society today and thinks "we need to kick out all the foreigners, bring back incandescent light bulbs, shoot all the french fishermen and start hanging people again" who isn't just a loving sadist? Who isn't just of the belief that cruelty and suffering are their own justification and their own ends? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 23:39
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jabby posted:You can even see it in Boris's response to having coronavirus: he blames himself for being overweight, he's said it multiple times. His mindset won't allow him to believe he fell ill through no fault of his own, because then it means everyone who gets ill isn't at fault. And that sort of thinking leads to giving them sick pay. So it has to be down to his bad choices somehow because then everyone who died must have made bad choices too. You're assuming a logical coherence of thought that doesn't actually exist. Boris hasn't been through any mental gymnastics to square his worldview, he doesn't even really have a worldview he has a class interest.
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Oct 17, 2020 23:40
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kingturnip posted:There are plenty of people in the world who are genuinely really caring and put a lot of thought and effort into trying to make the world a better place. Our system selects people without much empathy to be given power. When they've studied CEOs and people in executive roles as many as 20% of them exhibit psychopathic traits. Even in the studies that put it much lower it's several times that of the 'ordinary' population.  Vitamin P posted:You're assuming a logical coherence of thought that doesn't actually exist. Boris hasn't been through any mental gymnastics to square his worldview, he doesn't even really have a worldview he has a class interest. Everyone has their own perspective. He didn't have to blame his illness on obesity, and I don't think it required any mental gymnastics, he just sees the world through the filter of a permanent "just world" fallacy. Honestly if he didn't he'd probably implode from the guilt of being responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. jabby fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Oct 17, 2020 |
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Oct 17, 2020 23:43
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ronya posted:This was a funny paper from earlier in the year: http://davidyyang.com/pdfs/revolutions_draft.pdf Thanks for sharing this. It’s consistent with that study I referenced a couple of times that also showed that within 2 generations, the same families in I think Zhejiang held all the best jobs after the Chinese communist revolution as before it. I mean it’s also incredibly depressing to think that the system of the world eventually pushes back even something as dramatic as the revolution and cultural revolution but it’s better to know that I guess.
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Oct 17, 2020 23:54
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It must be cosy being right wing, whats actually making your life poo poo is complicated and hidden and instead blamed on people you've never seen but told is the problem, the smallest minorities used to further fascist bullshit. I think we all have empathy, but if you're a piece of poo poo you can only empathise on the level of being a piece of poo poo.
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Oct 17, 2020 23:56
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jabby posted:Everyone has their own perspective. He didn't have to blame his illness on obesity, and I don't think it required any mental gymnastics, he just sees the world through the filter of a permanent "just world" fallacy. Honestly if he didn't he'd probably implode from the guilt of being responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. You say that but has any British politician ever "imploded from guilt" for pointlessly killing huge numbers of people? Last I checked Blair is alive and kicking, Thatcher died in dignity and luxury, Osborne is thriving, Cameron is having a happy retirement probably raping children on an island, you're assuming these people are capable of feeling guilt when there's literally zero evidence that any of them ever have, and assuming that those feelings would change their behaviour in any way too which again, zero evidence. We can be sympathetic to normal people that are being misled but let's not create fake virtues and then lie that PMs have them.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:01
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jabby posted:Everyone has their own perspective. He didn't have to blame his illness on obesity, and I don't think it required any mental gymnastics, he just sees the world through the filter of a permanent "just world" fallacy. Honestly if he didn't he'd probably implode from the guilt of being responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. The thing is it wasn't obesity that led to him catching him, just to it being relatively severe. His hubris and stupidity is why he caught it but he won't/can't admit that.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:02
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justcola posted:It must be cosy being right wing, whats actually making your life poo poo is complicated and hidden and instead blamed on people you've never seen but told is the problem, the smallest minorities used to further fascist bullshit. I think we all have empathy, but if you're a piece of poo poo you can only empathise on the level of being a piece of poo poo. Right wingers are a diverse group though: some of them buy into the just world fallacy, others correctly see the world isn’t fair but delude themselves into it being done by a shadowy cabal of (((globalists))), others are just really tribal and don’t believe anyone outside their arbitrarily chosen group matters, it’s not a coherent ideology so much as a rabbit warren of interconnected lovely beliefs.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:04
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Solefald posted:My fella bought me some earrings I figure you'd guys appreciate. Those are good Big Hoops ngl
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Oct 18, 2020 00:05
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OwlFancier posted:I think the difference is that I don't even know what I am supposed to understand. I understand leftists, because leftism puts a lot of weight on mutual sympathy, but as you say, right wingers don't seem to do that, so is the reason I can't understand them because I am not a golem made entirely out of spite? Like yes I have a capacity for spite, I do actually think vengeance is a valid thing to want and I will argue that in the case of mass crimes then hanging people or whatever is actually the best option, because I believe it is possible for somebody to do things so utterly reprehensible that the act of execution is better than letting them live, people who orchestrate the death and immiseration of countless others. But I can't get to the point where I want that to be something you do to like, loving shoplifters or benefits claimants or whatever the mail reading freaks want. Or even most murderers? Like I am more inclined to believe that someone would kill out of momentary rage or desperation than I am to believe they're just a natural killer in 99% of cases. And clearly the correct emotion to feel there is sympathy. I do not understand someone who does not work that way. You kind of have to start from the perspective that not many people derive pleasure purely from the suffering of innocents. Which evidence does suggest is the case. So if it appears that they do, you probably don't understand their perspective. Perhaps they don't think the people suffering are innocent? Perhaps they are gaining something other than pleasure from the suffering, like a sense of security or material gain, and they consider the suffering a necessary evil? Perhaps they feel they have something to lose by stopping the suffering, so they're afraid to do so? Perhaps they've been ordered to make people suffer, and they fear the consequences of refusing? Perhaps they simply don't believe the suffering exists? I mean at the end of the day this is all personal philosophy, if you choose to believe that you are the only real consciousness and the rest of us are just p-zombies it's an equally valid explanation. Vitamin P posted:You say that but has any British politician ever "imploded from guilt" for pointlessly killing huge numbers of people? Last I checked Blair is alive and kicking, Thatcher died in dignity and luxury, Osborne is thriving, Cameron is having a happy retirement probably raping children on an island, you're assuming these people are capable of feeling guilt when there's literally zero evidence that any of them ever have, and assuming that those feelings would change their behaviour in any way too which again, zero evidence. You misunderstand, I'm saying that all of them rose to their positions because they are incapable of feeling guilt or empathy for other people like most people do. Our system basically selects for it. jabby fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 00:10
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I don't know whether I find conscious sadism more or less repellant than sadism but thinking it's actually kindness.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:12
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dont fall down the owlfancier morality mind hole. Hes a lovely lad, but mad as brunch.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:23
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https://twitter.com/JimothyBaker/status/1317475782294372352?s=19
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Oct 18, 2020 00:27
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anyway, always remember that political mandates are formed on swinging the people with the most ambiguous and conflicting political instincts, not the people whose instincts are completely extreme most societies with reasonably free domestic discourse have a 30% who oppose the government of the day no matter what and 30% who support it no matter what, as a rule of thumb - this seems to hold so widely across time and space that it's hard to pin it on any particular regional idiosyncrasies - any vision of the good society has to be compatible with large pluralities who disagree fervently with its system, I think, rather than hoping for some Die Losung solution
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Oct 18, 2020 00:32
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OwlFancier posted:I don't know whether I find conscious sadism more or less repellant than sadism but thinking it's actually kindness. Life is suffering, therefore by making others suffer you are preparing them for the kind of life your actions create.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:37
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ronya posted:This was a funny paper from earlier in the year: http://davidyyang.com/pdfs/revolutions_draft.pdf I'm personally of the camp that the more often you have them, the less they need to look like Red Guards cadres and the more they can look like Black Panther Free for Children Breakfast Programs, and the longer this gets put off the more likely that something breaks violently, but you could be talking about an order of decades or of centuries and still make a case there.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:43
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It is why I favour things like LGBT/women's rights and decentralized networking as tools of revolutionary change. If you give people rights tied to intrinsic parts of their perceptions of themselves and their existence in society and also give them the tools to communicate and create spaces where these rights and ideas can flourish into micro-societies then you have constant pressure on wider society to accomodate them. I guess it's a kind of vanguardism but not one based around people being more educated in theory to lord over others but rather people internalizing subversive ideas that speak to the inherent joys and beauty of the human experience and them awakening that joy in others and with it, implanting those ideas with it. It aligns praxis and simply living to the best of your ability.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:52
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Also the line in the paperquote:Acemoglu et al. (2011) document that the Holocaust and the disruption of social structure that it entailed led to long-term decline in local social, economic, and political conditions, which suggests a negative effect of mass murder on the remaining community.
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Oct 18, 2020 00:56
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human beings' beliefs are not required to be
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Oct 18, 2020 01:03
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Starting to think that we should have kept all the decent and sane people we apparently sent down to Aotearoa. Sadism is only a virtue if you're doing it in-person, if you're going to be a oval office then stick someone on a rack and rip their sinews apart, don't just vote Tory that's weak and cowardly.
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Oct 18, 2020 01:21
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Ms Adequate posted:Starting to think that we should have kept all the decent and sane people we apparently sent down to Aotearoa. I'd think the original inhabitants of Aotearoa would dispute you calling the people who arrived there decent or sane.
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Oct 18, 2020 02:04
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Guavanaut posted:Also the line in the paper I had to read it a couple of times but I think it’s saying that the people who mass murdered their neighbours ended up impoverishing themselves too, whereas people who didn’t mass-murder their neighbours were materially better off overall. IE refuting the argument that if you kill group X and take their stuff it will be a long term benefit. It’s probably phrased that way as deliberate bathos.
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Oct 18, 2020 02:22
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It’s fake.
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Oct 18, 2020 03:21
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Comrade Fakename posted:It’s fake. Nah its real.
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Oct 18, 2020 03:38
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Guavanaut posted:This is why I'm wary of people who say "you just need one big revolution and then it's fixed" as well as people who fixate too much on what their perfect end-goal anarchist/communist/whateverist society would look like. You need to keep having equalizing events. if it looks too much like the Free for Children Breakfast Program then it's likely to get scooped by social democrats advocating social-democratic reforms, who can promise all of the same, but without the vagaries and abuse that inevitably arise through ad-hoc party volunteer structures, unreliable funding, costly confrontations, etc. (which is exactly what eventually happened to that Free for Children Breakfast Program: the War on Poverty displaced it with the National School Breakfast Program) which may be the goal - but that's tantamount to conceding that the equalizing reformism is all that is on the table ronya fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 08:14
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Comrade Fakename posted:It’s fake. Eddie Marsan account spotted, desperately doing PR to repair a destroyed reputation. Absolutely appalling you would accuse respected local journalist Jimothy Baker of making up an interview
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Oct 18, 2020 08:18
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At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary Posts on this page alone gets very close to dehumanising them altogether Wrong approach
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Oct 18, 2020 08:49
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary Shy tory spotted Also gently caress those that lean right, they support a government that is content to let us die for superficial economic gains
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Oct 18, 2020 08:55
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This seems a relevant time to ask: is there a good summary of the actual content of the various Brexit agreements that have been floated, scuppered, re-floated, overn-packacked and finally taken out back and shot? I think I'm faily political aware, and I can't keep track of what's actually going on beyond theb kacground of "traitors! EU refuses to budge (on things we may have already agreed)"so I'm not going to blame Brexiteers for agreeing with it un-critically.
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Oct 18, 2020 08:56
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Strom Cuzewon posted:This seems a relevant time to ask: is there a good summary of the actual content of the various Brexit agreements that have been floated, scuppered, re-floated, overn-packacked and finally taken out back and shot? There's no deal mate.
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Oct 18, 2020 09:09
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary The dehumanisation of the disabled, poor, foreigners, refugees, & every other vulnerable group in the country is scary. The dehumanisation of the people whose entire worldview is built on those things isn't scary, it's just desserts. (PS this thread isn't the Central Committee or anything, it's a bunch of leftists screaming into the vote at how powerless we are)
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Oct 18, 2020 09:17
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary Dehumanisation of (a)fascists, (b)the mega-rich, and (c)Tory politicians & their ilk, however, is praxis, since you can't let your conscience get in the way of opposing them by any means
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Oct 18, 2020 09:27
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Because what we need to do at this critical juncture is to embrace those that have given material support to a government content to let us rot and/or die, either through deliberate neglect or an unwillingness to adequately deal with covid
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Oct 18, 2020 09:28
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LAB embracing a more-lockdown-than-the-government position does hamper picking off any threads of dissatisfaction in the red wall seats (albeit it's not clear that LAB could have sustained the strategy of transparently trying to have it both ways, either - this course may be the least bad of its options, as I said last year over the party's Brexit turn after the Euros)
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Oct 18, 2020 09:40
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary You should be more concerned about people that punch down, than those that punch up. We'll save the  for when they're not killing tens of thousands
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Oct 18, 2020 09:46
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary How do you dehumanise something that isn't human to begin with
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Oct 18, 2020 10:01
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ronya posted:if it looks too much like the Free for Children Breakfast Program then it's likely to get scooped by social democrats advocating social-democratic reforms, who can promise all of the same, but without the vagaries and abuse that inevitably arise through ad-hoc party volunteer structures, unreliable funding, costly confrontations, etc.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:07
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary If, back in 2010, the people of Britain had risen up and killed every member of the Conservative Party, it would have caused only a fraction of the pain and death we have suffered from their ensuing rule and all that suffering would have fallen on the deserving evil. And there's much more and much worse to come. Anyone who still "leans right" as late as the 2019 GE is either evil or stupid, if not both. If they're evil, they deserve demonisation; if they're stupid, there's no "right approach" because they won't listen to reason. E: obviously I'm not advocating the mass slaughter of the Tories. It's a hypothetical.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:07
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ronya posted:LAB embracing a more-lockdown-than-the-government position does hamper picking off any threads of dissatisfaction in the red wall seats The letter this morning from southern Tory MPs to Manchester and the North is going to do more to help Labour than going for a stronger lockdown will hurt I think.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:08
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Jedit posted:E: obviously I'm not advocating the mass slaughter of the Tories.. that's a very right-leaning position
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Oct 18, 2020 10:16
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