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Jedit posted:If, back in 2010, the people of Britain had risen up and killed every member of the Conservative Party, it would have caused only a fraction of the pain and death we have suffered from their ensuing rule and all that suffering would have fallen on the deserving evil. And there's much more and much worse to come. Anyone who still "leans right" as late as the 2019 GE is either evil or stupid, if not both. If they're evil, they deserve demonisation; if they're stupid, there's no "right approach" because they won't listen to reason. Yeah but that's just your opinion m8 isn't it 
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Oct 18, 2020 10:18
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:that's a very right-leaning position It's probably best to put the disclaimer on it, all things considered.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:26
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Especially now we have academic proof that mass murder is bad. Plus in the case of 2010 you'd have to include the Lib Dems and most of Labour.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:28
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Posts on this page alone gets very close to dehumanising them altogether I'd actually agree with this, with a caveat To me, empathy to other human beings is the foundation and the defining feature of any ideology that's on the left. The core of it is understanding that every human being is just that - a human being. Dehumanisation and demonisation run counter to empathy, and thus should be avoided at all costs - leave that poo poo to the people on the right lol The caveat here is that empathy and understanding doesn't mean agreement, or support. Like, I can understand what drives, say, a billionaire, or a Nazi death camp guard (to take two extremely right-wing examples) - and this understanding kind of makes me despise them much more than any demonisation or dehumanisation would, I'd imagine. It's perfectly fine, I think, to dislike or hate people and wish harm on them (or even do harm, in certain circumstances) for opinions that they hold or actions they commit, *without* denying them their humanity.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:29
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I always have a knee jerk sense of being patronised when people say Northern towns "don't know what they voted for" or "are victims" when it comes to Brexit/Tories/UKIP/whatever. Sure there are some, but most I know share the same mindset of every middle class Tory wanker I've met from Surrey. Only difference is they're poor or crass so it's easier to dismiss them as doing it out of ignorance. We all grew up in the same "poo poo hole" Northern ex mining town and everything that came with that. But not everyone decided to become a right wing dickhead.
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Oct 18, 2020 10:50
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nurmie posted:To me, empathy to other human beings is the foundation and the defining feature of any ideology that's on the left
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Oct 18, 2020 11:09
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bustin keaton posted:I always have a knee jerk sense of being patronised when people say Northern towns "don't know what they voted for" or "are victims" when it comes to Brexit/Tories/UKIP/whatever. Sure there are some, but most I know share the same mindset of every middle class Tory wanker I've met from Surrey. Only difference is they're poor or crass so it's easier to dismiss them as doing it out of ignorance. Yeah but it's not patronising really. The middle class Tory wanker is acting in their own interests, the working class northern Tory wanker is lied & propagandised to in order for them to vote/act against their own class interests. It's not a matter of being stupid, it's a matter of being brought up in a society that brainwashes you that you will be able to "better" yourself, that striving to jump into the middle class is a desirable & realistic target. Manufactured consent & all that, false consciousness. Press use immigrants & that to deflect blame & if it didn't work so well they wouldn't do it.
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Oct 18, 2020 11:11
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It's OK and usually good to try and understand people's motivation for their political viewpoints, but the reality is that lots of Brexiters and UKIPers are just terrible cunts and have been all along, but the current situation has allowed them to express themselves. I do think that a lot of the motivation is caused by fear of their own precarity and potential inadequacy, and due to lead poisoning or whatever they fail to spot that a mutually supportive approach is better for everyone than loving up people they perceive to be lower on the greasy pole.
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Oct 18, 2020 11:14
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Lmao at all of this but particularly the ending https://twitter.com/ThisIsTomLittle/status/1317224995970555907?s=19
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Oct 18, 2020 11:22
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forkboy84 posted:Yeah but it's not patronising really. The middle class Tory wanker is acting in their own interests, the working class northern Tory wanker is lied & propagandised to in order for them to vote/act against their own class interests. It's not a matter of being stupid, it's a matter of being brought up in a society that brainwashes you that you will be able to "better" yourself, that striving to jump into the middle class is a desirable & realistic target. Manufactured consent & all that, false consciousness. Press use immigrants & that to deflect blame & if it didn't work so well they wouldn't do it. Ehhh, most middle class Tories are acting against their own best interests, and especially the interests of their children. They might see more money in their pocket if they vote Tory, but the evidence from other countries suggests they'd be happier living in a country with higher taxes but better public services. Plus they're also, usually, one accident or illness away from relying on the social safety net they keep voting to dismantle. Personally I think the left needs to ditch the "working class" and "middle class" labels and go back to simply labour or capital. I mean I live a very middle-class lifestyle on my doctor's salary, but I have a lot more class interests in common with the hospital cleaner than with a property magnate.
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Oct 18, 2020 11:23
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Jose posted:Lmao at all of this but particularly the ending The punchline is extremely good
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Oct 18, 2020 11:24
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jabby posted:I mean I live a very middle-class lifestyle on my doctor's salary, but I have a lot more class interests in common with the hospital cleaner than with a property magnate. I always find it jarring to see how many US doctors are chuds. Particularly in the UK most of the medical profession seems a bit lefty or at least centrist, but working with US docs and reading r/medicine there's a huge FYGM mindset.
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Oct 18, 2020 11:36
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Looks like it was a response to this genuine The Telegraph video from last year "'I was told to kill myself for being Tory': Conservatives share abuse they've suffered" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjRwtwipXA quote:Comments are turned off. Learn more SHOW YOURSELF COWARDS
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Oct 18, 2020 11:41
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nurmie posted:It's perfectly fine, I think, to dislike or hate people and wish harm on them (or even do harm, in certain circumstances) for opinions that they hold or actions they commit, *without* denying them their humanity. I think that makes 'humanity' some sort of fetish, when I'd regard someone as defective if they did not have empathy for animals.
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Oct 18, 2020 11:47
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Cefte posted:If this is meant to be descriptive and not prescriptive, it is profoundly ahistorical. It's sort of a bit of both, really. I'd be really interested to learn why you think it's ahistorical though
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Oct 18, 2020 11:48
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oh good https://twitter.com/MikeOtsuka/status/1317723089074065412?s=20
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Oct 18, 2020 11:52
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knox_harrington posted:I always find it jarring to see how many US doctors are chuds. Particularly in the UK most of the medical profession seems a bit lefty or at least centrist, but working with US docs and reading r/medicine there's a huge FYGM mindset. This has everything to do with attitudes towards socialised medicine. In the US, many people think of being doctor the same way they do being a lawyer -- it's a prestigious, highly paid profession, and if you happen to do some good as one, that's a bonus, but ultimately secondary. In countries where people know going in that they're going to be working within a socialised medical system, they tend to think of it in more balanced terms. This is my experience as a Canadian having lived in both the US and UK for some time and known medical professionals in all three countries, at any rate.
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Oct 18, 2020 12:00
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knox_harrington posted:I always find it jarring to see how many US doctors are chuds. Particularly in the UK most of the medical profession seems a bit lefty or at least centrist, but working with US docs and reading r/medicine there's a huge FYGM mindset. We work in a state-run system and our training is highly subsidised, they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to train and then work in an ultra-capitalist environment. As a junior they get poo poo on worse than us but as a senior they earn way more. I think it basically encourages a "gently caress you, got mine" mindset because they suffer ridiculously to get to the pinnacle of being rich, so being rich is clearly the result of hard work and effort right? Plus we see huge numbers of the poorest people in the NHS, and see the good socialised medicine can do. I've never worked in America but I'd imagine they're a lot more insulated from the lowest rung of society by virtue or refusing to treat them. e: https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1248906136285319168 WHEN WILL YOU STOP KILLING, COMMUNISM jabby fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 12:00
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jabby posted:e: I tried to do a memorial to Victims of Capitalism but couldn't count how many died from being unable to afford medication or food or likewise.
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Oct 18, 2020 12:12
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jabby posted:
reminder they include all nazi's killed in ww2 in their figures lol
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Oct 18, 2020 12:17
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Jose posted:Lmao at all of this but particularly the ending mods please change my name to michael gove's gimp tia
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Oct 18, 2020 12:37
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Reminds me of that group that calculated total deaths from nuclear power and came out with the number "potentially everyone" cause nuclear power > nuclear proliferation > nuclear war > everyone dead
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Oct 18, 2020 12:38
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nurmie posted:It's sort of a bit of both, really. I'd be really interested to learn why you think it's ahistorical though quote:To me, empathy to other human beings is the foundation and the defining feature of any ideology that's on the left. The core of it is understanding that every human being is just that - a human being. Dehumanisation and demonisation run counter to empathy, and thus should be avoided at all costs - leave that poo poo to the people on the right lol There are absolutely left movements that are founded on empathy for universal human dignity, but they are by no means every leftist movement, which is why I responded to your statement that such a principle is the defining feature of any ideology that's on the left. Cefte fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 12:54
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The destruction of the capitalist class is an absolute requisite for socialism to work & last.
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Oct 18, 2020 13:06
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A bunch of tories are just people who correctly recognise that the country is insanely right wing so think its pointless to say "well things could be better" coz they won't be. Then they think that all they can do is look after themselves and their families by working hard. The ones who succeed have their views reinforced and the ones who fail have a whole industry of people blaming Sjws to explain it for them. That individualist view ends up with them thinking every person can just work hard so if you fail at life it's because of personal failings or neo bolshevism. This view is reinforced by 80% of the media. Once you go down this rabbit hole it becomes morally wrong to help people, since they will never learn the value of work and self agency but also cause they fear every collective project is bound to become millions dead in gulags. Imo the vulnerability for them is that right wing politics don't actually work to make the economy or their lives better, unless theyr a millionaire or an MP or the relative of one. It's a politics of selfishness but given our country it is coherent and understandable. I'm pro MP euthanasia but wishing death on just random tories, and the apparent total inability to understand them, as the kids say This ain't a good look, yeet
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Oct 18, 2020 13:06
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ronya posted:(albeit it's not clear that LAB could have sustained the strategy of transparently trying to have it both ways, either - this course may be the least bad of its options, as I said last year over the party's Brexit turn after the Euros) JeremoudCorbynejad posted:"'I was told to kill myself for being Tory': Conservatives share abuse they've suffered" In that respect at least, there is very much a utilitarian argument for Tories to kill themselves. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 13:14
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Humanist socialism as a tendency dates to the New Left in the 1960s Classical Marxism would have regarded it as bourgeois individualism... the crux of the problem is whether humanist concepts (like empathy, or alienation, or exploitation) should be interpreted to refer to interactions between classes or individuals, and in general classical (ahem) Marx is pretty hot on the idea that the answer is class. Given the reduction of all social history to class struggle as scientific natural law, the moral subject of political philosophy very definitely not the individual autonomous human
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Oct 18, 2020 13:23
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Cefte posted:
Fair enough! Yeah, the "classicides" and their sheer pointlessness (see that research paper mentioned earlier in the thread) and brutality - not to mention the indiscriminate actualities of them with regards to the actual social class of the large part of the victims - is precisely what makes me extremely uncomfortable when dehumanisation gets intermixed with leftist ideas. The bolded bit of your quote is where I personally lean towards - at least wrt say, Stalin and modern China. So I suppose that earlier statement of mine leans towards being prescriptive lol edit: also, everything jabby said a couple of posts down nurmie fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 13:27
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Communist Thoughts posted:its pointless to say "well things could be better" coz they won't be. The self-perpetuating feedback loop of British politics and the failure of the melancholic left.
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Oct 18, 2020 13:29
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Cefte posted:You said this: Empathy is not the opposite of violence, empathy is a powerful motivator of violence. Protests, riots and revolutions often spring up on the back of unjust deaths or the mistreatment of groups of people. Of course violence has a way of getting out of control and becoming self-perpetuating, and as people gain power they tend to become more corrupt and wish to hold onto it. Often people who want power will try to co-opt people's empathy to build anger against someone else. But that doesn't mean brutal regimes that emerge from left ideology didn't start from a place of empathy, at least among the ordinary people supporting them. jabby fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 13:29
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Gravastars posted:The self-perpetuating feedback loop of British politics and the failure of the melancholic left. Imo that's the tory line, the melancholic left line is "things could be better but they probably won't be, I'm still not going to shut up about them"
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Oct 18, 2020 13:32
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knox_harrington posted:I always find it jarring to see how many US doctors are chuds. Particularly in the UK most of the medical profession seems a bit lefty or at least centrist, but working with US docs and reading r/medicine there's a huge FYGM mindset. There is one chuddish rear end in a top hat in one of the FB groups I'm in. If I could only get their GMC number I would report them for spreading fake news.
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Oct 18, 2020 13:34
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Z the IVth posted:There is one chuddish rear end in a top hat in one of the FB groups I'm in. If I could only get their GMC number I would report them for spreading fake news. Are they an orthopaedic or possibly vascular surgeon?
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Oct 18, 2020 13:40
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forkboy84 posted:The destruction of the capitalist class is an absolute requisite for socialism to work & last. True, for values of destruction that amount to ‘they no longer count as a distinct socioeconomic class’. Which has nothing to do with cigarettes and blindfolds, and everything to do with capital not being a meaningful constraint on what does and doesn’t happen. The UK and France are equally non-feudal. Not because of who did or didn’t get their head cut off, but because the ability to personally raise and command military forces simply doesn’t politically matter. At least, as of now; not making any predictions for next year.
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Oct 18, 2020 13:41
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:At the risk of being flamed to hell and back, the demonisation in this thread of people who lean right is scary I'll stop when they give me another choice.
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Oct 18, 2020 13:47
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Z the IVth posted:There is one chuddish rear end in a top hat in one of the FB groups I'm in. If I could only get their GMC number I would report them for spreading fake news. lol I'm fairly sure I know the guy you mean (from FB, not personally).
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Oct 18, 2020 13:48
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jabby posted:Empathy is not the opposite of violence, empathy is a powerful motivator of violence. Protests, riots and revolutions often spring up on the back of unjust deaths or the mistreatment of groups of people. quote:believe [...] that historical left classicide in Russia, China, Vietnam, etc, was conducted with empathy and involved no dehumanisation quote:But that doesn't mean brutal regimes that emerge from left ideology didn't start from a place of empathy, at least among the ordinary people supporting them. Cefte fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 13:54
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knox_harrington posted:Are they an orthopaedic or possibly vascular surgeon? Anaesthetist, apparently, which was a real surprise. My first guess was also "Orthopod with a vast private practice". jabby posted:lol I'm fairly sure I know the guy you mean (from FB, not personally).  needed. I'm shocked the admins haven't booted him yet since he's 1. Using a false name and 2. Clearly spreading poo poo around.
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Oct 18, 2020 14:01
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For what it's worth I agree that you can start an authoritarian, violent political movement that uses empathy between adherents to justify violence against outgroups, and you can also have it be nominally leftist insofar as I think authoritarians can be leftist, which I would take issue with given my anarchistic leanings but yes they could be MLs or other ideologies like that and may even believe it is the way to a left wing future. Which is why despite the nagging idea that it might be a quick and effective way to solve all the problems I still don't think violent revolution to install a new government would help people in the long run, because it doesn't seem to historically.
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Oct 18, 2020 14:02
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Hey, an article about the thing I predicted would happen (no deal being averted by a "deal" that's as solid as a load-bearing coat of paint) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/18/experts-claim-boris-johnsons-thin-eu-deal-will-cause-major-economic-upset Though I am now tending more towards no-deal happening, mainly because the UK people think they're clever negotiators playing mega-chicken hardball, and the EU think they're a bunch of idiots.
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Oct 18, 2020 14:05
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