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VomitOnLino posted:Okay here’s the BASIC rear end poo poo that most leftists want: Do you have an argument for how not voting for Biden produces better outcomes for people or are you just whining about how your feelings are hurt?
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Oct 26, 2020 03:03
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ok I did the harm reduction v*ting today, Howie just got another swing state voter 
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Oct 26, 2020 03:12
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Diggus Bickus posted:Do you have an argument for how not voting for Biden produces better outcomes for people or are you just whining about how your feelings are hurt? My argument is right in the post. Sorry about your reading disability, but we try to be inclusive here. So, in case your question is actually honest and not another idiot straw-man troll: Only by showing the party/candidate/whomever that you are very much able to NOT vote for them will you be able to get them eventually to offer you a candidate/platform/policy that you can vote for, and then you get your better outcomes. Otherwise you are (and have been!) stuck in an eternal loop of lesser evil-ism, which is by definition of the term is still trending towards ultimate evil, just more slowly.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:12
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Diggus Bickus posted:Do you have an argument for how not voting for Biden produces better outcomes for people or are you just whining about how your feelings are hurt? Do you have an argument for how voting for Biden produces better outcomes for people or are you just whining about how your feelings are hurt?
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Oct 26, 2020 03:29
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Diggus Bickus posted:Do you have an argument for how not voting for Biden produces better outcomes for people or are you just whining about how your feelings are hurt? Not voting for Biden produces a better result because if you vote for a rapist then you render yourself haraam in the eyes of g*d and all of his true servants
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Oct 26, 2020 03:38
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VomitOnLino posted:My argument is right in the post. Sorry about your reading disability, but we try to be inclusive here. So when Trump wins, the democrats will shift left. Got it. Thanks for putting it in words  Crane Fist posted:Not voting for Biden produces a better result because if you vote for a rapist then you render yourself haraam in the eyes of g*d and all of his true servants The choice is between two rapists, sorry MonsieurChoc posted:Do you have an argument for how voting for Biden produces better outcomes for people or are you just whining about how your feelings are hurt? Better than Trump? OK how about actually managing the pandemic response? How not making the supreme court 7/2 republican? How about not packing lower courts with republicans? How about not deploying secret police in multiple US cities as much as a literal fascist? How about having a climate plan instead of NOT having a climate plan? Or do you mean better than some fantasy candiate that isn't running? Butterwagon has issued a correction as of 03:43 on Oct 26, 2020 |
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Oct 26, 2020 03:40
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Diggus Bickus posted:The choice is between two rapists, sorry There are more than two choices on the ballot, and even when there are not, we were granted the gifts of sight and movement to see a false dichotomy and walk away from it. Mohammed the prophet smiles upon all those who remember that the lesser evil is still an evil upon the world
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Oct 26, 2020 03:44
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Crane Fist posted:There are more than two choices on the ballot, and even when there are not, we were granted the gifts of sight and movement to see a false dichotomy and walk away from it. Mohammed the prophet smiles upon all those who remember that the lesser evil is still an evil upon the world There actually aren't, sorry. Wish we didn't have a first-past-the-post system, but we do.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:46
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Diggus Bickus posted:How not making the supreme court 7/2 republican? How about not packing lower courts with republicans? Quick question lad, who was it that got Clarence Thomas into the SC Diggus Bickus posted:How about not deploying secret police in multiple US cities as much as a literal fascist? I'm enchanted by the defeatism on display here. "yes obviously he'll still fund and encourage secret police death squads, but not as many of them" May you walk always in the sight of the lion, and may he lift your heart to better things
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Oct 26, 2020 03:48
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Diggus Bickus posted:There actually aren't, sorry. Wish we didn't have a first-past-the-post system, but we do. Voting for a man you know to be a rapist is haraam. If you must ignore your conscience to vote then you are willingly engaging in evil, my brother. Stay your hand from the lever and g*d will greet you at his gates
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Oct 26, 2020 03:49
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Crane Fist posted:Quick question lad, who was it that got Clarence Thomas into the SC Who is more likely to appoint a monster to the SC? Biden or Trump? That is the ONLY relevant question. quote:I'm enchanted by the defeatism on display here. "yes obviously he'll still fund and encourage secret police death squads, but not as many of them" I'm not saying Biden is good. I loving hate Joe Biden. Trump is worse, and I have two choices.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:52
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Gonna go ahead and say that when you're saying poo poo like "but he promises to use 17% less death squads" you want to reevaluate your choices
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Oct 26, 2020 03:53
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Diggus Bickus posted:Who is more likely to appoint a monster to the SC? Biden or Trump? That is the ONLY relevant question. They're pretty equally bad, my man. You're lying to yourself if you think Biden wouldn't appoint a monster to the SC in a second.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:54
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I mean he already did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ix7YTVZK6w
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Oct 26, 2020 03:54
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Diggus Bickus posted:So when Trump wins, the democrats will shift left. Got it. Thanks for putting it in words That's not what I said, nice straw-man. If they refuse to move politically then the voters will go somewhere else to someone or some party that is willing to offer them some concessions in return for their vote. The democrats can either adapt or wither. That's how it should work anyway. It won't work -- ever -- if we already pre-pledge our vote without getting ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING in return. As an aside, I love how you acknowledge that the system is totally hosed and broken, but yet you yourself offer no alternative, but to perpetuate it.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:55
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Diggus Bickus posted:Who is more likely to appoint a monster to the SC? Biden or Trump? That is the ONLY relevant question. They both HAVE. For their evil g*d has turned his eyes from them and in the dark they act unfettered by consequence, perpetrating evils upon women, enriching their cronies, launching wars that kill a million people, not to mention all the things Donald Trump has done
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Oct 26, 2020 03:56
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Chillgamesh posted:Gonna go ahead and say that when you're saying poo poo like "but he promises to use 17% less death squads" you want to reevaluate your choices I have 100 candidates I can vote for. 1 of them will keep the number of death squads the same or increase them if they win. 1 will keep the number of death squads the same or reduce them if they win. 98 will not win. Who should I vote for? VomitOnLino posted:That's not what I said, nice straw-man. So your goal is to let the republicans win so much that there is no more democratic party left, then, the proletariat revolution can commence? Do you think the democratic party will move LEFT if they are constantly getting beaten by republicans? VomitOnLino posted:As an aside, I love how you acknowledge that the system is totally hosed and broken, but yet you yourself offer no alternative, but to perpetuate it. I don't make anything better for anyone by not voting. MonsieurChoc posted:I mean he already did: Man this Joe Biden guy seems like a real piece of poo poo! I wonder who he's running against?
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Oct 26, 2020 04:03
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Diggus Bickus posted:
Looking at the past record they sure as gently caress don't move left when they get elected. So, you point is? Diggus Bickus posted:Man this Joe Biden guy seems like a real piece of poo poo! I wonder who he's running against? Ah, the CHEETO.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:04
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voting in this or any election is nothing more than a single strategy in a much larger struggle. it's in the democratic party's interest to expand access to the democratic process, and it's in the republican interest to restrict it. i think it's in our interest as socialists that the working class have access to the vote in this country, and therefore it is extremely important that we stop republican victories wherever possible. this has nothing to do with supporting the democratic party, they will still obviously work against us. this view that you are uncritically supporting a candidate when you vote for them is nonsense. there is a fair argument for voting third party but i think it falls short of accounting for how severely the right to vote is being curtailed in this country and the danger of fascism on the horizon. if the democrats take enough political power it could be possible to abolish the electoral college because it's in their interest. they're still gonna be a bourgeois party but on this issue our interests actually align with them. i think you should only vote third party for president if you sincerely believe that trump and the republican party do not represent a fascist danger or that you are positive that trump cannot win. i think the swing state nojoe voters are making a bad tactical decision. When a socialist really believes in a Black-Hundred danger and is sincerely combating it—he votes for the liberals without any bargaining, and does not break off negotiations if two seats instead of three are offered him. For instance, it may happen that at a second ballot in Europe a Black-Hundred danger arises when the liberal obtains, say, 8,000 votes, the Black-Hundred representative or reactionary, 10,000, and the socialist 3,000. If a socialist believes that the Black-Hundred danger is a real danger to the working class, he will vote for the liberal. We have no second ballot in Russia, but we may get a situation analogous to a second ballot in the second stage of the elections. If out of 174 electors, say, 86 are of the Black Hundreds, 84 Cadets and 4 socialists, the socialists must cast their votes for the Cadet candidate, and so far not a single member of the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party has questioned this. at the end of the day it may be too late to head off fascism anyway so if you wanna preserve your dignity and not vote i get it. i just think the way people talk about voting in this subforum is a misinterpretation of the moral character of it. if you vote you should make whatever the best calculation you can for furthering the goals of the struggle, that's it. don't get caught up in this idea that if you vote for a candidate you support everything about that candidate (this is only something people seem to say about voting for president anyway).
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Oct 26, 2020 04:08
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jarofpiss posted:voting in this or any election is nothing more than a single strategy in a much larger struggle. it's in the democratic party's interest to expand access to the democratic process, and it's in the republican interest to restrict it. i think it's in our interest as socialists that the working class have access to the vote in this country, and therefore it is extremely important that we stop republican victories wherever possible. this has nothing to do with supporting the democratic party, they will still obviously work against us. I love all you guys insinuating that people don't vote instead of casting their vote for Howie or Gloria or anyone else who isn't either of these two pieces of poo poo. But I know why you have to. Because otherwise your boneheaded argument completely collapses.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:10
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Diggus Bickus posted:I have 100 candidates I can vote for. 1 of them will keep the number of death squads the same or increase them if they win. 1 will keep the number of death squads the same or reduce them if they win. 98 will not win. Who should I vote for? maybe you should not capitulate to the people who made it so you had to pick between racist rapist death squad guy and extreme cheddar racist rapist death squad guy The problem with this is that the Democrats have shown time and again that they're just as willing to use the same voter suppression tactics as the Republicans when it suits them and that Biden has a history of being a staunch opponent of civil liberties. If America is sliding into open fascism then I truly do not see how a Biden presidency does anything to even slow that. Chillgamesh has issued a correction as of 04:17 on Oct 26, 2020 |
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Oct 26, 2020 04:10
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Chillgamesh posted:maybe you should not capitulate to the people who made it so you had to pick between racist rapist death squad guy and extreme cheddar racist rapist death squad guy No but don't you see... you fool, you absolute imbecile...!!! Lying down and spreading their butt-cheeks totally works! Just look at the glorious results that strategy got us so far...
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Oct 26, 2020 04:13
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VomitOnLino posted:I love all you guys insinuating that people don't vote instead of casting their vote for Howie or Gloria or anyone else who isn't either of these two pieces of poo poo. "i think you should only vote third party for president if you sincerely believe that trump and the republican party do not represent a fascist danger or that you are positive that trump cannot win. i think the swing state nojoe voters are making a bad tactical decision."
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Oct 26, 2020 04:13
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Chillgamesh posted:maybe you should not capitulate to the people who made it so you had to pick between racist rapist death squad guy and extreme cheddar racist rapist death squad guy I have a choice between a rapist deathsquad guy and an XTREME FASCIST rapist deathsquad guy. I'm going to put a dot on a little piece of paper next to the first guy's name so the other guy doesn't win because that would result in a lot of people dying that wouldn't die otherwise. VomitOnLino posted:Looking at the past record they sure as gently caress don't move left when they get elected. So, you admit it's a stupid idea, then. If republicans win, the democrats will shift right to chase the right-wing vote. I'd like the overton window to nudge to the left if possible, or at least stop moving right. VomitOnLino posted:Ah, the CHEETO. Yes, the CHEETO. Because saying one candidate is objectively less bad than another is lib poo poo. Actually, both candidates are bad, therefore, VomitOnLino posted:I love all you guys insinuating that people don't vote instead of casting their vote for Howie or Gloria or anyone else who isn't either of these two pieces of poo poo. I mean that's super cool and all but they aren't going to influence the election any more than throwing your ballot away would. If your goal is to establish the socialist party as a real threat in the long run that's a stupid and irresponsible way to do it. Vote socialist on local seats, not on the loving presidency when fascism is literally on the table. Butterwagon has issued a correction as of 04:21 on Oct 26, 2020 |
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Oct 26, 2020 04:19
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jarofpiss posted:"i think you should only vote third party for president if you sincerely believe that trump and the republican party do not represent a fascist danger or that you are positive that trump cannot win. i think the swing state nojoe voters are making a bad tactical decision." Trump has been less bad on foreign policy than Obama, that's a fact. Guess who started the whole castrate the immigrants and put children in cages thing? It was not Trump. The war on black and brown people in your own country? It was Joe Biden, among others. Who is denying people healthcare and financial aids in the MIDST OF A loving PANDEMIC? Biden. The current democratic party is as fascistic and as oligarchic with an additional veneer of decorum that you seem to crave so loving much. In fact one could make the argument that Trump is BETTER because at least the media-industrial-complex is antagonistic towards him. They would not be so under Biden. Your so-called alternative is well and truly loving god damned meaningless
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Oct 26, 2020 04:19
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VomitOnLino posted:Trump has been less bad on foreign policy than Obama, that's a fact. i didn't draw any distinctions between the candidates on these things? i said both parties are opposed to socialists but i really think the people saying the state repression of socialist organizing would be the same under biden as second term trump are delusional.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:23
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Diggus Bickus posted:I mean that's super cool and all but they aren't going to influence the election any more than throwing your ballot away would. If your goal is to establish the socialist party as a real threat in the long run that's a stupid and irresponsible way to do it. Vote socialist on local seats, not on the loving presidency when fascism is literally on the table. Wrong, because just looking at it mathematically it will suppress the % of votes that Trump (and yes, Biden) gets.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:23
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Diggus Bickus posted:So when Trump wins, the democrats will shift left. Got it. Thanks for putting it in words My hope is not that the Democratic party shifts left. I don't think that can happen. I don't know if there is an actual-factual controlled opposition conspiracy among the leadership, but they definitely view it as part of their job to keep the left completely as far as possible from even being in the same room as where the levers of power are. Now in the past, they were able to do that and still scoop up some leftist votes - but we have seen what happens when the left starts to think maybe they should get something in return for that decades-long history of fidelity. So the primary was a real eye-opener for me at least, and put out of my mind forever any illusion that like entryism can work. And for what it's worth: no the grassroots poo poo isn't going to work, either. For all the talk about how Bernie failed because his was a top-down strategy (if it even was that), the truth is that the bottom-up strategy is just as hopeless. It has been tried countless times, it has failed countless times, and the only difference is that due to the nature of the action, you general don't hear about it. But the Democratic party is just as institutionally packed with intransigent succ at the lower levels, as it is at the top. My hope is that the Democratic party is destroyed. I think that is going to happen regardless of who wins this election - you can't run a political party on the basis of doing nothing for your constituents, forever - but a Biden win is worse in two respects: it will allow the party to limp on a little longer (and continue to shut out the left for as long as they are even nominally a going concern), and the reaction to a Biden win - which the Democrats are utterly incapable of addressing or really even loving acknowledging - will be worse for all of us as well. The threat of fascism is very real and the truth is that this country is better at fighting it without the Democrats in power than with. That is how terrible the Democrats are. So on that basis alone I can easily justify not voting for Biden.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:24
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Diggus Bickus posted:I have a choice between a rapist deathsquad guy and an XTREME FASCIST rapist deathsquad guy. I'm going to put a dot on a little piece of paper next to the first guy's name so the other guy doesn't win because that would result in a lot of people dying that wouldn't die otherwise. Imagining this poster as a hostage negotiator, they watch the bad guys throw like 50 people off a skyscraper roof and then actually try to get them the escape helicopter, $1 billion, and pizza, it's incredible
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Oct 26, 2020 04:25
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jarofpiss posted:i didn't draw any distinctions between the candidates on these things? Ah yes, because there was no McCartyist smearing of progressives going on under Obama. Nor was there any racism. Give me a loving break. Things do feel worse, meaning more angry, more racist and bigoted, because people and societies tend to fall into bouts of self-destructive nihilist anger if they are in economic and social distress. And guess what? Neither of the two idiots on the ballot is going to meaningfully change any of that. It's getting worse either way. If you believe otherwise you are god damned loving delusional.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:28
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VomitOnLino posted:Ah yes, because there was no McCartyist smearing of progressives going on under Obama. Nor was there any racism. i think you're a little too emotional about this and you didn't even engage with my lenin quote earlier. what is the better of the two possible outcomes in your opinion?
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Oct 26, 2020 04:31
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:what’s the alternative that you personally will do? if you can v*te and choose not to, what will you personally do instead that can reduce harm and/or improve the outlook of the vulnerable? The idea that people shouldn't be allowed to have opinions/feelings about political issues unless they've "put in the time" is honestly really hosed up and it's really weird to see people who consider themselves left-wing express such opinions. It's especially dumb when you take into account how meaningless voting is as political action. Posting on the internet probably literally has a bigger impact, and I'm not being ironic in the slightest when I say that.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:34
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jarofpiss posted:i think you're a little too emotional about this and you didn't even engage with my lenin quote earlier. what is the better of the two possible outcomes in your opinion? Simple: neither of these "two" outcomes matters because ba-bum-dish - they are the same outcome. That's all I've been trying to say, but apparently I was being too verbose or emotional. Would you like to die by stabbing in the heart or rather the lungs? That's not a choice I would want to make and so all that go: "lol no thanks" when asked to make this choice have my full solidarity.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:36
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Chillgamesh posted:Imagining this poster as a hostage negotiator, they watch the bad guys throw like 50 people off a skyscraper roof and then actually try to get them the escape helicopter, $1 billion, and pizza, it's incredible I'm not sure how this metaphor applies. Let's stick with the rapist deathsquad guy and the XTREME FASCIST rapist deathsquad guy
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Oct 26, 2020 04:37
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Diggus Bickus posted:I'm not sure how this metaphor applies. Let's stick with the rapist deathsquad guy and the XTREME FASCIST rapist deathsquad guy I'd also like to point to the unaddressed elephant in the room, namely looking beyond your insane-rear end clown country. Trump has been objectively better for large parts of the world for a couple of reasons: - he's not got the US stuck in another forever-war (due to being a loving wimp I assume) - his being a huge unlikable buffoon has helped loosen the US empires death-grip, especially in Europe and Asia - the shittiness of the US empire has been revealed for all to see, so resistance has gotten more effective
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Oct 26, 2020 04:43
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:people aren’t cardboard cutouts. it’s quite possible to think Joe is an awful person but is less awful than another trump admin. it’s possible people are ready to protest and fight joe’s awful lib garbage and feel they have a better chance at forcing progress under a dem president. I want you to try and imagine exactly how "forcing progress" would occur under Biden. Actually try and imagine the specifics of how this would supposedly transpire. Not just "elect more progressive and pass progressive legislation" - what specific legislation and what seats do you think can be reasonably won under Biden that would allow said legislation to pass? Because any actual serious attempt to answer these questions quickly reveals that it's not even remotely a serious proposition. The left is not going to magically flip the vast majority of Democratic congressional seats under Biden, and that's the only way you'd have a dog's chance in hell of passing anything substantive. The only form of a "vote for Biden" argument that is even remotely reasonable is one that attempts to compare all the things Biden and Trump specifically support and are likely to do, because the left is not going to somehow magically achieve legislative goals under a Biden presidency. "Better chance at forcing progress" is not even remotely a plausible reason, because there's no actual path to that happening under Biden. edit: I've noticed a trend of people being increasingly vague about "progress," likely because on some level they realize that they can't really explain how anything specific would be accomplished through "working with a Biden administration."
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Oct 26, 2020 04:50
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I wish Joe Biden would drop off and stop stealing votes from Gloria La Riva. I know that there platforms don’t overlap in all respects, but surely he can see that she is the lesser of two evils.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:50
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Diggus Bickus posted:I'm not sure how this metaphor applies. Let's stick with the rapist deathsquad guy and the XTREME FASCIST rapist deathsquad guy I'm leaning towards the former, but I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're actually such a coward that even the suggestion of not immediately rolling over and dying on command is incomprehensible to you. Ytlaya posted:I want you to try and imagine exactly how "forcing progress" would occur under Biden. Actually try and imagine the specifics of how this would supposedly transpire. Not just "elect more progressive and pass progressive legislation" - what specific legislation and what seats do you think can be reasonably won under Biden that would allow said legislation to pass? Agreed entirely. If getting a Democrat in office actually energized the left, then the Obama presidency wouldn't have led directly to its suppression, the Tea Party, and ultimately Trump. One need only look to the derision and hostility people like AOC and Ilhan Omar receive from people like Nancy Pelosi to see how the left is going to be treated by Biden.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:53
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i will say it's been pretty wild to watch cspam get to the place where they have to believe that the joe biden is an actual fascist and not just a filthy liberal to justify not voting for him.
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Oct 26, 2020 04:53
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VomitOnLino posted:I'd also like to point to the unaddressed elephant in the room, namely looking beyond your insane-rear end clown country. this is nojoe tag fraud if you aren't eligible to vote in our elections
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Oct 26, 2020 04:54
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