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Payndz posted:I just had a rare moment of being heartened by the realisation that as he's not a minister or even an elected politician and therefore lacks crown immunity, Dominic Cummings could technically be held criminally accountable for every death - rapidly approaching 1 Brit in every 1000! - resulting from his sociopathic policies. This government as a whole is criminally negligent and has blood on its hands for how badly this has been handled. I doubt there’ll ever be a proper public enquiry to investigate it though. It would be hard to prosecute Cummings because he just advises, he doesn’t make or implement policy. I wish him much misfortune. feedmegin posted:And then we do exactly the same thing, just a day later Yeah, maybe. I just fail to see how that benefits him or the party. Or more strongly, how it doesn’t hurt both.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:31
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namesake posted:Keeping schools open frees the parents to work in some capacity though. What exactly is forced shut, what protections are given to the workers in shuttered industries and how many industries are given a pass are vital to whether this is going to work or if we're throwing more lives into the volcano in pursuit of Number. oh for sure, and i get why there is a need for something, but like i said, i feel like there's probably a middle ground here. regardless of location, school closures should, imo, be on the table for at least regional lockdowns.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:33
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It’s ok to keep schools open because localised outbreaks can be contained by our world-beating track and trace system.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:34
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serious gaylord posted:Oh cool they just dropped that we're going into a national lockdown again (in England) on Wednesday. After briefing the cabinet to deny this all day. At 9pm on a Friday. Lol at shutting down basically everything except the two largest vectors, schools and universities. Piss off everybody and achieve virtually nothing
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Oct 31, 2020 00:40
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therattle posted:“I haven’t had time to properly read and consider the final report. Once I have had an opportunity to do so I’ll release a statement”. He had options. He just chose not to take them. You should take this back to CSPAM so people there can tell you to gently caress off again.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:42
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therattle posted:This government as a whole is criminally negligent and has blood on its hands for how badly this has been handled. I doubt there’ll ever be a proper public enquiry to investigate it though. It would be hard to prosecute Cummings because he just advises, he doesn’t make or implement policy. I wish him much misfortune. Even if there was, it would be delayed until everyone involved is dead so no action will be taken against them, and/or then locked away for 70 years under the secrets act. Just like most other enquiries in the last 100 years in the UK.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:45
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Operation DO NOTHING has failed. We tried! Doing nothing can't stop the virus! What else can we do!?
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Oct 31, 2020 00:46
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Noxville posted:Lol at shutting down basically everything except the two largest vectors, schools and universities. Piss off everybody and achieve virtually nothing Nah 10 to 19 year olds got overtaken by case numbers last week by 30 to 60 and 20 to 29 looks like it'll be matched soon. They might well be getting it from their kids but it's everywhere again.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:48
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Payndz posted:I just had a rare moment of being heartened by the realisation that as he's not a minister or even an elected politician and therefore lacks crown immunity, Dominic Cummings could technically be held criminally accountable for every death - rapidly approaching 1 Brit in every 1000! - resulting from his sociopathic policies. Do it Keith, be useful for once. (Just to be clear, what I'm advocating is not a criminal act. It's specifically a legal act in the UK, as per laws that the opposition abstained on.)
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Oct 31, 2020 00:50
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Gonzo McFee posted:You should take this back to CSPAM so people there can tell you to gently caress off again. It’s ok, you don’t need to acknowledge that you were wrong. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 31, 2020 00:52
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feedmegin posted:A statement prepared because the first thing that was going to happen was journalists asking him for his reaction. 'No comment' wasn't an option. Not mentioning that there was a smear campaign would also have been taken as an admission of guilt. I'm glad he told the truth. I didn't say he should say "no comment", I said if I were him I would have left out the part about the the problem being "dramatically overstated". Partly out of desire to not cause a massive gently caress-up, and partly because it's too close to saying people shouldn't get worked up about only a bit of institutional racism. There are plenty of ways to not admit fault without minimising the problem, I even suggested he could have laid he blame at the door of McNichol and the opposing factions and pointed to all the good stuff he did to improve complaints handling. I do love the guy and I'd be more sympathetic if I thought he'd decided to 'tell it like it is' and go out in a blaze of glory. But if the Guardian is to be believed (pinch of salt I know) he's already in talks with Starmer about how to re-admit him because neither of them wanted this to happen. So it's not really a principled stand on either side so much as a huge mess that end up being retracted, reworded or apologised for.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:53
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It would be useful if the firing of an MP by someone not an MP, backfired and opened up the internal party apparatchiks to more scrutiny. It's worrying how completely unelected people can control a workers party without any form of public scrutiny. Of course, the people who would form that public scrutiny are the journalists who work and hang out in the same few miles of London as them, and rely on their sources being in place and usable, so they won't be properly cleared out anytime soon.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:58
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therattle posted:It’s ok, you don’t need to acknowledge that you were wrong. Potentially on the topic of, legit asking again what your quotation marks are doing here? therattle posted:It’s almost as if Jews call out antisemitism when they see it, and not only in the Labour Party because it’s “politically convenient”. Instead of white noise 'no u' bad posts you did make an actually interesting post earlier would appreciate you explaining it like I'm an idiot because genuinely can't parse what you were saying.
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Oct 31, 2020 00:59
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namesake posted:Nah 10 to 19 year olds got overtaken by case numbers last week by 30 to 60 and 20 to 29 looks like it'll be matched soon. They might well be getting it from their kids but it's everywhere again. Was it ever the kids or was it young people doing all the lovely customer facing jobs? I don't actually know but I have this pessimistic expectation that the government is playing up every vector except getting it while working.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:01
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Vitamin P posted:Potentially on the topic of, legit asking again what your quotation marks are doing here? Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. So, two people posted that when Trump says something AS nobody says anything. In contrast, when AS comes from the left there is a hullabaloo. Therefore the outrage about Left AS is manufactured for political reasons - hence “politically convenient”. (Which is not to say that the issues wasn’t weaponised - of course it was). That is, the implication (to me at least) is that there is a double- standard for calling out AS. “It doesn’t happen when Trump does it! He can say this and that and nothing happens!” But that’s not actually the case. Trump’s statements were swiftly condemned by numerous Jewish groups. Therefore when there are claims of AS towards Labour, perhaps they are sincere and not manufactured smears, as AS in other contexts is also called out.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:15
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Funny imo that if Kieth hadn't demanded a half-term circuit breaker we might have done this earlier and saved some lives. No way the PM was going to do what he was told, though.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:26
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therattle posted:Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. So, two people posted that when Trump says something AS nobody says anything. In contrast, when AS comes from the left there is a hullabaloo. Therefore the outrage about Left AS is manufactured for political reasons - hence “politically convenient”. (Which is not to say that the issues wasn’t weaponised - of course it was). That is, the implication (to me at least) is that there is a double- standard for calling out AS. “It doesn’t happen when Trump does it! He can say this and that and nothing happens!” But that’s not actually the case. Trump’s statements were swiftly condemned by numerous Jewish groups. Therefore when there are claims of AS towards Labour, perhaps they are sincere and not manufactured smears, as AS in other contexts is also called out. See this is the problem, you explictly and blithely (based take btw) acknowledge that there is a wider political context to AS complaints, you use the words 'weaponised' and 'double-standard' and clearly are aware that there is a significant element of 'manufactured smears' happening so why were you posting as though Corbs had just made bad moves in a basically fair game?
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Oct 31, 2020 01:34
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For those of you planning to quit the party once you've voted in the NEC elections, JVL posted this on Facebook:quote:"We just got a message saying "It has come to our attention: If people email the party to say they've resigned, their vote in the NEC is cancelled. If people cancel their DD the vote stands." Don't resign until the ballot is over - better still don't resign at all, stay and fight" So cancel your dd but don't email them til after the ballot is closed. Quite a few good links in posts on their fb page.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:36
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But i think everyone who I might vote for the NEC should leave Labour too, to form a new party with the membership and unions and MPs. The left getting their slate voted in just let's them delude themselves that Labour is going to be a vehicle for socialism in the UK counter to all the evidence because they are naive fools with a sentimental attachment to a party that doesn't exist and hasn't in my lifetime
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Oct 31, 2020 01:41
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https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1322299486861991939 Without lockdown we're probably looking at overwhelmed hospitals and 1000+ deaths a day all over the Christmas period. That's what'll be forcing them to act, the fear that if they don't the run-up to Christmas will just be a huge death tally in the media rising every day, going from 20,000, to 40,000, to 60,000, etc. with no end in sight. People have got pretty invested in the whole "Curse of 2020" thing. If we get to Christmas and it looks like the virus is still raging out of control, it's going to break a lot of people. Much as I hate this government I really, really hope they can stop that happening. People need a bit of hope.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:44
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therattle posted:Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. So, two people posted that when Trump says something AS nobody says anything. In contrast, when AS comes from the left there is a hullabaloo. Therefore the outrage about Left AS is manufactured for political reasons - hence “politically convenient”. (Which is not to say that the issues wasn’t weaponised - of course it was). That is, the implication (to me at least) is that there is a double- standard for calling out AS. “It doesn’t happen when Trump does it! He can say this and that and nothing happens!” But that’s not actually the case. Trump’s statements were swiftly condemned by numerous Jewish groups. Therefore when there are claims of AS towards Labour, perhaps they are sincere and not manufactured smears, as AS in other contexts is also called out. Yes - the problem isn’t the Jewish groups, who are rightly worried about the very real antisemitism that still exists in our society, and should be listened to and believed when they point it out, even if it’s people we support they’re pointing at. The problem is all the people who claim to be outraged by antisemitism but curiously only seem to notice it when it’s coming from someone they already oppose. Probably we shouldn’t use shorthand when discussing this - particularly not shorthand that erases Jewish voices by saying things like “nobody cares” when we mean “the mass media does not make it the top headline for months”.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:51
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forkboy84 posted:But i think everyone who I might vote for the NEC should leave Labour too, to form a new party with the membership and unions and MPs. Some planning to leave after voting might be thinking "I'm not staying, but to help my comrades who are staying - for now anyway - here's my 2p, try and keep it a bit left".
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Oct 31, 2020 01:52
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I found the most neolib thing ever in the USPOL thread and I know it's nothing to do with the UK but i just couldn't not share it for your amusement https://twitter.com/MayorOfLA/status/1322329594045685761?s=20
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Oct 31, 2020 01:55
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forkboy84 posted:The left getting their slate voted in just let's them delude themselves that Labour is going to be a vehicle for socialism in the UK counter to all the evidence because they are naive fools with a sentimental attachment to a party that doesn't exist and hasn't in my lifetime As opposed to the oh-so-rational attachment to extra-electoral methods you keep talking about, truly we are "naive fools" because the evidence of your approach being more practical is so overwhelmingly strong, see [citation needed] and [citation needed]. The most annoying thing about quitters is that you can do both, it makes more sense to have people doing both, but you keep not only being wrong about that take but also just play the obnoxious twat about it too.
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Oct 31, 2020 01:58
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If you suffer long enough, you can change him.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:00
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forkboy84 posted:But i think everyone who I might vote for the NEC should leave Labour too, to form a new party with the membership and unions and MPs. Vitamin P posted:As opposed to the oh-so-rational attachment to extra-electoral methods you keep talking about, truly we are "naive fools" because the evidence of your approach being more practical is so overwhelmingly strong, see [citation needed] and [citation needed]. sassassin posted:If you suffer long enough, you can change him. Can we try and keep it comradely? I hate seeing people driven out of this thread by the bile. People on the left can differ about whether or not it helps to remain in Labour without being fools or twats, and I've yet to see a situation that is improved by domestic abuse metaphors. Everything is really, really difficult right now. Cut each other some slack.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:10
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therattle posted:This government as a whole is criminally negligent and has blood on its hands for how badly this has been handled. I doubt there’ll ever be a proper public enquiry to investigate it though. It would be hard to prosecute Cummings because he just advises, he doesn’t make or implement policy. I wish him much misfortune. There will be an inquiry but The purpose of any proper inquiry is specifically to kick everything into the long grass for a number of years until things either just sorta end, half finish or they find an appropriate scapegoat. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Cummings is that scapegoat, he's not an mp and the establishment doesn't like him, but more likely its some intern somewhere if anyone. But yeah inquiry is just classic British doublespeak, it's what you use to obfuscate not illuminate
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Oct 31, 2020 02:16
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There will be no new left-wing party to pick up from where Labour's socialists left off. There won't be enough people willing to become members to make it financially viable, since it's highly likely none of the major unions will support it (because there's no point the unions backing a political party with no clout). It's not an easy choice to stay on as a Labour member when the message from the leadership is that my opinions are neither wanted nor respected, but I came to the understanding years ago that I'm almost certainly an ideological outlier. At least if I am still a Labour member, I've got some sort of platform for my views, even if no-one in a position of power is listening. At the same time, I don't blame anyone who feels that they have to leave Labour for their own benefit (moral, financial or political). Everyone has their breaking point, and Keir's done enough poo poo in the last few months to hit many a breaking point.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:25
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Vitamin P posted:As opposed to the oh-so-rational attachment to extra-electoral methods you keep talking about, truly we are "naive fools" because the evidence of your approach being more practical is so overwhelmingly strong, see [citation needed] and [citation needed]. The extra parliamentary plan is unrelated to what I have been talking about the past while. I still think parliament is setup in such a way to make socialism extremely unlikely and that Labour certainly isn't the vehicle to change that but I was in fact talking about parliamentaryism despite my doubts. I don't rule out any strategy that can work, but seeing money, time and effort wasted on deadends makes me arse. And a group of MPs with the backing of the trade union movement breaking from their party to form a new one has a precedent and it's the birth of the Labour Party, which had an large proportion of ex Liberal MPs
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Oct 31, 2020 02:26
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Communist Thoughts posted:corbyn's weird obstinancy is both one of his biggest weaknesses and also what allowed him to not have a breakdown or kill himself 12 months into the 5 year press barrage like most people would have it was always a selective obstinacy though. The running theme of the Corbyn years was that the banner he was willing to stick his neck out for (and the neck of the movement he led) is this: opposing Western imperialism overseas. e.g., he was willing to go to bat to resist anti-Russia jingoism even at enormous cost (in the immediate wake of the Salisbury poisoning). As I said in my earlier post - probably only appropriate for a left-wing awakening formed in the wake of the second Iraq war. The left mainly views I/P through the lens of Western settler colonialism rather than as one of any number of other delicate foreign peace processes, hence the entanglement in this theme. for all this effort, the main lasting change on I/P* seems to have been to incrementally shift the Conference position on I/P in 2018 and 2019 to move the party position to one that could be interpreted to imply support for BDS. The changes did not even make it into GE material subsequently (despite a loyal NEC) for everything else - Britain in/out of Europe, Trident, nationalization, policing, law and order, knife crime/moral panics, sex and gender issues, schooling/grammars/etc. - these other traditional left-wing Labour causes are weighed against assorted feathers. To be clear, this is how we should expect politicians to generally behave - if they're not completely sociopathic, they have a few issues that they go to bat for. The rest is big tent management by necessity. It's never principled my-truth-to-power on all issues because that's antithetical to any kind of mass party politics. That being said, horse trading has to actually get some horses in return, so the clinical question is what this exceedingly costly campaign to defend this particular hill over the three years from the Chakrabarti inquiry to GE2019 actually won. * on foreign interventionism more generally, Corbyn's opposition has had lasting impacts on e.g. the Syria intervention question ronya fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Oct 31, 2020 |
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Oct 31, 2020 02:27
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jabby posted:Everything is really, really difficult right now. Cut each other some slack. Fair point tbh, wouldn't hurt me to post less mad for a bit at least.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:34
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https://twitter.com/HISTORYUK/status/1322114714277613569?s=19 I wonder why the Nazi wood guy is even bothering to deny that he's a Nazi at this point? If you're at the point of covering your face in Nazi tattoos you're sort of beyond shame about it. Unless he genuinely thinks it's a super secret code that people haven't figured out?
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Oct 31, 2020 02:49
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stev posted:https://twitter.com/HISTORYUK/status/1322114714277613569?s=19 "Far-right leanings" sounds more like a balance disorder than being a literal neo-Nazi.
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Oct 31, 2020 03:01
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stev posted:https://twitter.com/HISTORYUK/status/1322114714277613569?s=19 It doesn't matter if his defense makes sense under any amount of scrutiny, so long as he says it with a straight face then it'll be possible that someone, somewhere believes him and might be convinced to think that maybe these people yelling about him are being unreasonable. How can these shouty lefties see inside his mind? He seems pretty sure he's not a nazi, he would know wouldn't he And/or he prefers to be called a race realist identitarian or whatever the latest jargon is to pretend you're totally different from that other bunch
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Oct 31, 2020 03:07
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Angepain posted:It doesn't matter if his defense makes sense under any amount of scrutiny, so long as he says it with a straight face then it'll be possible that someone, somewhere believes him and might be convinced to think that maybe these people yelling about him are being unreasonable. How can these shouty lefties see inside his mind? He seems pretty sure he's not a nazi, he would know wouldn't he It’s this. The far right will generally move to reject any label that has become too uncouth in modern society. They’ll refuse to be called fascists - they’re alt-right. Then, they’ll refuse to be called alt-right, they’re identitarians. Etc. Etc. That said, it is quite unusual for someone with 88 face tats to be in this group - make no mistake, there is a hard core of Nazis and ethno-nationalists who are very proud to be just that. Would there be appetite for an effortpost (almost certainly not up to twisto standards) on the state of the U.K. far-right at the moment?
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Oct 31, 2020 03:43
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I would be equal parts interested and depressed.
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Oct 31, 2020 03:48
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ronya posted:it was always a selective obstinacy though. The running theme of the Corbyn years was that the banner he was willing to stick his neck out for (and the neck of the movement he led) is this: opposing Western imperialism overseas. What did it win in your view?
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Oct 31, 2020 03:58
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The DPRK posted:What did it win in your view? whipping up I/P moved the party position from: quote:Labour is committed to a comprehensive peace in the Middle East based on a two-state solution – a secure Israel alongside a secure and viable state of Palestine. to quote:Labour is committed to a comprehensive peace in the Middle East based on a two-state solution – a secure Israel alongside a secure and viable state of Palestine. it also succeeded in passing this symbolic resolution at Conference: quote:Palestine Motion, Labour Party Conference 2019 (the resolution did not then impact the party position, which was remained the same between in 2017 and 2019. It's not plausible to argue that Corbyn is not in full control of the manifesto by 2019, so electoral considerations are still exercising an effect there. Really, the most surreal part of the Conference to Clause V transition was the whole public school tax exemption campaign quietly shuffling off to die without any protest (after committing the grievous sin of upstaging the shad cab's own education flagship policy); this is relatively unremarkable by comparison) So, a lot of sweat and tears over two additional clauses. It's certainly a shift. It's not nothing. But maybe it's not very much, especially in view that Britain does not play as large a role in the Israel-Palestinian peace process that it did in, e.g., the Rhodesian peace process, where one side was de facto operating out of London, or in the Northern Ireland peace process, where one side is London. In those cases, commitment to British unilateral action means a lot. But I/P is in practice an American talking shop and has been for two generations at least. On the A/S culture war side, the net impact has to been to bait the right into attempting to locate some formal standard for an enforceable code of conduct and then (on the left) to embrace judicializing the process. It's worth appreciating just how unusual that is for the Labour left, which historically has fought for the opposite of judicialized, professional panels (and instead pushed for putting disciplinary decisions to a delegate vote) - you may recall that prior to the Chakrabarti report, many of the left were indeed calling for putting disciplinary decisions to a vote instead. These older camps have almost wholly been replaced by the new JVL grouping which has been pro-code-of-conduct. I'm not sure I would call either of these 'wins' as tactical victories go, inasmuch as transforming the rules of the struggle sideways - a hard emphasis on the Macpherson principle is obviously going to explode in the right's faces. Conversely, a hard emphasis on an independent non-partisan disciplinary process is obviously far more damaging to radical discourse, especially a discourse that no longer feels obliged to engage in meek electoralism for a consensus leader's benefit. And on 'wins' of principle it seems incredible to me that any faction of the party, by the battle-lines that existed in 2015, was all that enthusiastic for a brutally transformative battle to reform the aging disciplinary process left over from the fight against Militant-aligned Trotskyists. ronya fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Oct 31, 2020 |
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Oct 31, 2020 04:56
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If this thread is Disco Elysium then ronya is Encyclopaedia.
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Oct 31, 2020 05:06
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jabby posted:It's hard to see how suspending Corbyn ends well for Starmer. Right now it might please some Guardian journalists but to the average voter it just reminds them the party is divided. That or he's an MI5 plant there to destroy the left, but it's possible the truth is somewhere inbetween. It's possible that there is an entire spook cell dedicated to influencing Sir Keith, but he's blissfully unaware of how despised he is because any time anyone comes to him with a legit poll or an unedited message, a guy in black just disappears them before he even realises they're there. Gonzo McFee posted:Lol no that's real, she's a z list comedy actress and noted bully. Like the only person who was on Big Train and wasn't offered a part in any Simon Pegg films. Her husband ate potpourri in a restaurant and it made the papers. She posted a pic a while back claiming Corbyn was stalking her, and it turned out he was at the theatre to see a different play. She's pathetic and delusional. I bring her up again mostly because therattle really needs to glance at the twitter double act of her and Rachel Riley to see exactly the kind of centrist twats we're talking about. Melts who will shitcan Corbyn over misinterpreted slights, and then offer a free pass to people like Jimmy Carr who still makes gas chamber jokes as part of his standup shows. I'm not saying this to attack Carr, i'm saying this to point out Riley's hypocrisy in talking about Corbyn sharing a platform with antisemites when she literally does that on Cats does Countdown.
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Oct 31, 2020 05:36
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