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therattle posted:Obviously I think he could/should have dealt with it better and quicker and I’m angry with him that he didn’t in part because it helped gently caress the party. I'm damned if I can think about what he could have done differently though. Other than on day 1 saying "The Leaders office has no control over diciplinary matters, take it up with the General Secretary " and using that to preasure McNicol to actually apply the recomendations he's already been given... but I'm pretty sure that actually was said at the time, the press just chose to not report how those mechinisms work and act as if it was all on Corbyn's head (and imply it is his personal doing). It "dragging on" is purely a mechinism of the press, if the press want a story to drag on they can make it be part of the national conversation for years, as long as new takes can be found. If if thousands die and billions of pounds are embezzled, it can be made to disapear in a week if the press have the consensus to bury it.
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Nov 1, 2020 13:54
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To bring everyone together during these dark times I'd like you all to join me to clap for the conservatives. Sarcastically. Thursday, 8pm sharp.
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Nov 1, 2020 13:55
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Comrade Fakename posted:It’s pretty funny that the Guardian were clearly starting to back away from the Corbyn hate since this whole thing was an obvious gently caress up and then the Observer rolls in drunk to shout “BUT IF HE’S NOT A NAZI WHY DO WE KEEP SAYING HE IS?!” Liberal writer runs into shot, screaming: "THE GUARDIAN AND THE OBSERVER ARE DIFFERENT NEWSPAPERS ACTUALLY"
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Nov 1, 2020 14:02
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Buried in the new guidelines it turns out that Extremely Vulnerable people have been strongly advised to stay at home. Might be nice for at least one journalist to point this out. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-nat...rom-coronavirus
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Nov 1, 2020 14:02
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forkboy84 posted:Liberal writer runs into shot, screaming: "THE GUARDIAN AND THE OBSERVER ARE DIFFERENT NEWSPAPERS ACTUALLY" "I've even written an article in the Observer about how different they are!" "Ok, where's the article?" "www.guardian.co.uk/..."
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Nov 1, 2020 14:06
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OwlFancier posted:No nut november is a loving terrible idea. Worst idea humanity ever had. 
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Nov 1, 2020 14:10
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Guavanaut posted:They take it seriously in America. Sounds painful
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Nov 1, 2020 14:13
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therattle posted:I was pretty careful in my last post to not reopen the argument about where fault lay with the whole AS thing: it was more about how it was perceived and the effect it had. A lot of people don’t care that much about AS but thought that Corbyn’s inability to deal with it (whether through lack of desire or sabotage depending on one’s standpoint - not going into it) reflected badly on him as a leader. The longer it dragged on (deliberately or otherwise) the worse he looked. If you subscribe to the sabotage theory, then it worked as planned. At what point does this enter your mind as fact and stop being 'like, just your opinion man?' How could he have 'dealt with it better' exactly? Honestly your core arguments read like a climate denier who is wilfully conflating opinion with fact. The reason people are getting frustrated with you is because you don't seem to be able to grasp this. By 'not reopening the argument' or reframing it as an argument between two equal sides, you are reinforcing the idea that there is an argument. There isn't. There's misinformation and there are verifiable evidence based facts. That's what we're trying to talk about and you keep bringing up impressions and accusations. therattle posted:I think it’s less “is antisemitic” and more “didn’t address this issue quickly enough”. (Yes, I know the consensus here is that it wasn’t his fault). I don’t think that many Britons care that deeply about AS; it was more the perception that he failed to address something bad. The McCarthyist idea of the big lie is that someone makes an accusation, and then everyone repeats the accusation, and then eventually it doesn't matter if there was ever any evidence for the accusation, because everyone is now repeating the accusation. The lie gets so big that it gains a hideous, lurching momentum of its own and the accusation becomes the evidence. In a very real neurological sense these loops reinforce themselves until it's actively difficult for the brain to break out of them, causing an unpleasant and stressful cortisol release. Once the big lie has taken hold, people don't want to believe anything else. What's worse is when the 'evidence' is complex, but a simple reading of it is allowed to reinforce the narrative. The EHRC report shafted Corbyn by putting that easily quotable bit in the abstract saying something like 'the party has an antisemitism problem and Corbyn broke the law intervening in cases inappropriately.' It doesn't matter that page 84 clears him of actually being antisemitic, or that his intervention was to expidite cases, or that there were absolutely zero accusations against him before 2015. All people will read is the easy bit, and the papers then get to signal boost it, and then everyone is talking about how the EHRC *mumbles* Jimminy Crobbles *mumbles* labour antisemitism, knowing full well the connection that the average person on the street is going to make. And if you try to point out the evidence, or correct anyone, nobody listens because 'everyone knows' Corbyn *mental blur* antisemitism. Even when there's no evidence for what everyone knows; like one of the funny misconceptions on QI, only it's the monstering of a compassionate human rights campaigner. Again, I would recommend that you read into what Rachel Riley and Tracy Ann Obermann have been up to if you want to see examples of two media types who have 100% bought into this poo poo. You could package up every act of racial justice Corbyn has been involved with in his long career, statements of support from non conservative aligned Jewish organisations, and they would mentally write it all off because it doesn't fit with their worldview, which is that Corbyn is antisemitic. And if you ask them for their evidence that he is, they'd either say 'of course he is, everyone says he is,' or quote a few minor incidents which rely on viewing them through the lens that he is already antisemitic. That's the power of the big lie. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to get in there first. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 14:14
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Bobby Deluxe posted:You could package up every act of racial justice Corbyn has been involved with in his long career, statements of support from non conservative aligned Jewish organisations, and they would mentally write it all off because it doesn't fit with their worldview, which is that Corbyn is antisemitic. And if you ask them for their evidence that he is, they'd either say 'of course he is, everyone says he is,' or quote a few minor incidents which rely on viewing them through the lens that he is already antisemitic.
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Nov 1, 2020 14:18
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Desiderata posted:I'm damned if I can think about what he could have done differently though. Other than on day 1 saying "The Leaders office has no control over diciplinary matters, take it up with the General Secretary " and using that to preasure McNicol to actually apply the recomendations he's already been given... but I'm pretty sure that actually was said at the time, the press just chose to not report how those mechinisms work and act as if it was all on Corbyn's head (and imply it is his personal doing). My main issue with him is how long it took him to realise that there was a problem in the party. Sure, he condemned AS, but it was usually accompanied by a minimisation of the problem, and with the formulation "and all other forms of racism". To a Jew that is a bit like "All Lives Matter". I accept that in some quarters whatever he did would never be enough, but that isn't the case across the board. Did he say that the leader's office has no influence over disciplinary matters and to take it up with McNichol? Did he say "Our discpilinary processes are clearly inadequate to deal with this problem, and I have asked McNichol as a matter of urgency to reform them". No, because I don't believe he cared about the issue that much, as he has a problem seeing leftist antisemitism. I also think it was bad politics. This is perceived as an issue, so I must take steps to be perceived as addressing it - rather than simply refusing to acknowledge it properly. Bobby Deluxe posted:The EHRC report literally says he tried to speed up and seek harsher punishments - it's criticism is only over whether he should or shouldn't have. There's an entire episode of Panorama detailing how a PLP chud held up AS investigations to make him look bad. The Labour leaks show the bulk of the party mechanisms were working against him and actively threw the election to get him out. I've never said that he was personally AS, but a lot of his close associates are and he has a problem recognising it, and thus addressing it within the party. The leaked report clearly acknowledges that it was a problem in the party. It is also a fact that he took a long time to properly recognise it. Even his statement to the EHRC report tries to downplay the prevalence in the party. See post above for how to address it better. He didn't address it better because he didn't want to. He didn't see that it was an issue, and for too long the resignations of MPs and Lords, multiple personal testimonies of harassment etc were simply written off as Blairite smears. There was AS in the party. Can you honestly say that Corbyn did all he could, from the get-go, to address it? therattle fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 14:32
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It was 12 years of this shite that laid the ground for the Tories to come in and start starving people and making them homeless imo anyway what's the bloke at the end meant to be doing bad? he's shopping? 
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Nov 1, 2020 14:36
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crispix posted:It was 12 years of this shite that laid the ground for the Tories to come in and start starving people and making them homeless imo his crime is being alive, OP.
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Nov 1, 2020 14:38
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crispix posted:anyway what's the bloke at the end meant to be doing bad? he's shopping? Shopping in cash at a market stall rather than at a chain store. That's dodgy behaviour if I ever saw it.
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Nov 1, 2020 14:39
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crispix posted:It was 12 years of this shite that laid the ground for the Tories to come in and start starving people and making them homeless imo thats the point, they all look like normal people but beneath their human-like exterior theyr benefit FRAUDS and are about to be executed by the mysterions
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Nov 1, 2020 14:39
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Guavanaut posted:They take it seriously in America. i believe this is known as tucking
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Nov 1, 2020 14:53
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Guavanaut posted:It'd probably make them angrier, as per this good two parter on bearing false witness. I have been increasingly worried over the last few years that the march of progress of human society has been about hacking and influencing human behaviour, and at some point a breakthrough was made by advertisers that has entirely hosed us. Sort of like the idea that what Derren Brown does for entertainment, other companies do for profit or for political power (which usually boils down to profit). Like how the big lie relies on this 'well everybody knows' mentality that's almost impossible to break. And as the article you posted hypothesises, a lot of people don't eben care if it's true or not, they just want to be seen as virtuous by sharing and retweeting their opposition to this sort of thing. Which someone, somewhere is making money from.
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Nov 1, 2020 14:57
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therattle posted:My main issue with him is how long it took him to realise that there was a problem in the party. Sure, he condemned AS, but it was usually accompanied by a minimisation of the problem, and with the formulation "and all other forms of racism". To a Jew that is a bit like "All Lives Matter". I accept that in some quarters whatever he did would never be enough, but that isn't the case across the board. Did he say that the leader's office has no influence over disciplinary matters and to take it up with McNichol? Did he say "Our discpilinary processes are clearly inadequate to deal with this problem, and I have asked McNichol as a matter of urgency to reform them". No, because I don't believe he cared about the issue that much, as he has a problem seeing leftist antisemitism. I also think it was bad politics. This is perceived as an issue, so I must take steps to be perceived as addressing it - rather than simply refusing to acknowledge it properly. Err there was the whole Chakrabarti Inquiry which are the recommendations that you seek. He certainly did say the disciplinary process needed reforming, though perhaps he kept a foolish good faith in their work for far too long. The only thing he didn't do loud enough is call McNicol out by name. In retrospect he should have chucked McNicol under the bus as soon as it looked like he was stalling. It's the press that kept the fact that The Labour Leader personally doesn't control the party disciplinary process a niche minutia of party organisation for wonks, rather than a generally understood fact in this case. With that one extra fact, the whole shape of the issue changes. It's almost as if deep concerns about the disciplinary process being run efficiencly and impartially - were not the driving factor behind the news coverage... And you'll notice they still aren't to this day. He was both asked to interfere to solve the problem and confounded if he interfered - regardless of even if that interference was to ensure stronger punishment. It's mind-blowing the game that was played here.
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Nov 1, 2020 14:58
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therattle posted:My main issue with him is how long it took him to realise that there was a problem in the party. Sure, he condemned AS, but it was usually accompanied by a minimisation of the problem, and with the formulation "and all other forms of racism". To a Jew that is a bit like "All Lives Matter". I accept that in some quarters whatever he did would never be enough, but that isn't the case across the board. Did he say that the leader's office has no influence over disciplinary matters and to take it up with McNichol? Did he say "Our discpilinary processes are clearly inadequate to deal with this problem, and I have asked McNichol as a matter of urgency to reform them". No, because I don't believe he cared about the issue that much, as he has a problem seeing leftist antisemitism. I also think it was bad politics. This is perceived as an issue, so I must take steps to be perceived as addressing it - rather than simply refusing to acknowledge it properly. I think possibly the addition of "and other forms of racism" could well be reflective of problems with anti-BAME racism in the party (and country) that also needed addressing and seems to have been a bit swept under the rug with the AS problem. Recall that Dianne Abbott got more harassment in the 2017 election than *every other MP put together* and that the leaked report also highlighted this issue (IIRC). I get that it feels tone deaf when he was being asked about AS specifically, but there's a reasonable argument that the whole problem needs tackling and he was attempting (poorly, I'd agree) to get the media to talk about the wider problem.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:04
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Desiderata posted:I'm damned if I can think about what he could have done differently though. Other than on day 1 saying "The Leaders office has no control over diciplinary matters, take it up with the General Secretary " and using that to preasure McNicol to actually apply the recomendations he's already been given... but I'm pretty sure that actually was said at the time, the press just chose to not report how those mechinisms work and act as if it was all on Corbyn's head (and imply it is his personal doing). one goes to war with the enemies one has, not the enemies one wishes one had, so to speak it's possible to reject this on principle and say: never compromise. No to electoralism and triangulation - but certainly Corbyn cannot be said to have stood on principle for numerous other domestic issues during his leadership. Choosing Western-imperialism topics to make a sharp stand - to take out a view that is defensible on the left, but undeniably provocative - was always a recurring Corbyn theme. Recall back when Corbyn was handed the first of many, many softballs throughout this episode, when the Chakrabarti report landed, and the report is great and gives Corbyn a way to wriggle out of the earlier Shah/Walker/Livingstone "crisis? What crisis?" debacle, and then Corbyn takes the report launch press briefing as an opportunity to equivocate between the Netanyahu government and ISIS this is not the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid dragging it out - that is what one does if one wants to 'start a conversation', as the parlance goes. it is possible to put down these issues - recall e.g. that both Corbyn and McDonnell were soon hit by criticisms over their various remarks on the Irish peace process early in their respective positions. Compare McDonnell defusing what one might think to be an utterly disastrous remark: quote:McDonnell issued his apology after senior members of the shadow cabinet expressed unease about his comments on the IRA. In 2003, he said at an event remembering the death of the IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands: “It’s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA. Because of the bravery of the IRA and people like Bobby Sands, we now have a peace process.” to Corbyn, around the same time, not doing that: quote:Stephen Nolan quotes the Daily Telegraph in June. "This is a man who sympathised with violent Irish republicanism in the 80s, invited IRA representatives to the Commons a fortnight after the Brighton bombing in 1984 and at a Troops Out meeting in 1987 he stood for a moment's silence for eight IRA terrorists killed in an SAS ambush". How do you respond to that. The difference is this: McD sets out to convince listeners today - a good swathe of which, let's be real here, would struggle to recall any part of the peace process twenty years ago - that whatever views he might have had in the distant past of 2003, he never meant it even at the time. Whereas Corbyn sets out to reiterate a position that was controversial even in 1997 and then to assert that he was right all along and he still stands by #allbombsmatter today. What about Bloody Sunday! What about Bloody Sunday. It is very important to me that I, the new Leader of the Labour Party, win this argument with Stephen Nolan on left-wing terms! This is, to be clear, only how one would behave if one wants 1) everyone with an axe to grind since the 1980s to pop out of the woodwork 2) voters to believe that your position back then is still salient on your behaviour today as future Prime Minister, because you're right out there telling them that your position still matters. This was always a recurring Corbyn tic on Western-imperialism issues - having to be dragged kicking and screaming to the party position (initially blamed on excessively Blairite party apparatchiks - but even after replacing the entire NEC with left-wing loyalists, still engaging in this behaviour), and once there, doing one's level best to use the Leader's podium to provoke debate. Well, congratulations: debate successfully provoked. Better win it. After all - one isn't just a backbencher in a safe Labour seat now, one is Leader of the whole party...
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Nov 1, 2020 15:04
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therattle posted:Sure, he condemned AS, but it was usually accompanied by a minimisation of the problem, and with the formulation "and all other forms of racism". To a Jew that is a bit like "All Lives Matter". therattle posted:There was AS in the party. Can you honestly say that Corbyn did all he could, from the get-go, to address it? If you're going to keep dodging this point, this is why people are going to see you as arguing in bad faith. E: And as has already been pointed out, just because the hostile press weren't reporting on something, doesn't mean he wasn't saying it. To answer your question clearly yes, I think he was doing everything in his power, and even a little beyond it. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 15:08
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Skeletome posted:god I'm starting to get all terrified about covid again I know it may be hard, but put that foot down. To be harsh, you could be dead in a week from your partner going to that party. Dying alone, lungs filled with fluids, either huffing farewell messages over zoom or being told that you will wake up soon from the ventilator and never doing so, chucked into a sealed coffin, and rushed into the ground asap. But thats ok as long as someone had a few tins of Carlsberg while listening to someone elses crap taste in music for a few hours.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:13
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ronya posted:one goes to war with the enemies one has, not the enemies one wishes one had, so to speak This is a fantastic post and articulates what I’ve been saying about McDonnell being a much more astute politician than Corbyn, and that the strong feeling was that Corbyn didn’t want to resolve this until it was too late. How do you think it feels to a Jew to see this happening? G1mby posted:I think possibly the addition of "and other forms of racism" could well be reflective of problems with anti-BAME racism in the party (and country) that also needed addressing and seems to have been a bit swept under the rug with the AS problem. Recall that Dianne Abbott got more harassment in the 2017 election than *every other MP put together* and that the leaked report also highlighted this issue (IIRC). I get that it feels tone deaf when he was being asked about AS specifically, but there's a reasonable argument that the whole problem needs tackling and he was attempting (poorly, I'd agree) to get the media to talk about the wider problem. Right. Tone-deaf. Apart from being distressing, and feeling like he’s dodging the specific issue, it’s bad politics. Did Abbott receive harassment from within the party as well as without?
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Nov 1, 2020 15:15
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therattle posted:Right. Tone-deaf. Apart from being distressing, and feeling like he’s dodging the specific issue, it’s bad politics. Did Abbott receive harassment from within the party as well as without? Yeah, it's in the leaked report as I recall.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:19
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therattle posted:Did Abbott receive harassment from within the party as well as without? As per the internal investigation, blairites were falling over themselves to leak to the press when & where she was crying in a stall. I believe there were other examples, but that one stood out to me as rancid.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:20
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how hard do you have to be clutching at straws when your main attack on Corbyn is “he didn’t condemn antisemitism, he condemned antisemitism and other forms of racism too  ”
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Nov 1, 2020 15:21
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therattle posted:Right. Tone-deaf. Apart from being distressing, and feeling like he’s dodging the specific issue, it’s bad politics. Did Abbott receive harassment from within the party as well as without? Large amounts of explicitly racist abuse, yes. Julio Cruz posted:how hard do you have to be clutching at straws when your main attack on Corbyn is “he didn’t condemn antisemitism, he condemned antisemitism and other forms of racism too Particularly in the context of the Blairite war against Muslims. Probably important to ensure that the ethnicity that the party had previously been disappearing into torture camps doesn't feel sidelined in the "fighting racism" mission. Active Quasar fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 15:23
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Bobby Deluxe posted:That is a good point I hadn't thought of - however it still doesn't account for the severity of the narrative levvied against him. It's another point where the reader would have to already be biased against him to attribute it to malice rather than unawareness. It's not a good point. Black Lives matter as a phrase exists to make it clear that structurally black peoples lives are treated as if they do not matter, and the phrase exists to draw attention to that. All lives matter is a ways of saying there is no problem and exists to erase the explicit attention drawing of the first phrase, it exists a right wing signifier. "AntiSemitism and all other forms of racism are abhorent", is saying that Anti-Semitism, a term a worrying number of people did not have in their lexicon untill recently, is a type or racism, and ensuring that it is catagorised and treated as a type of racism and viewed as seriously as a type of racism in the minds of the Corbyn left who are concerned about such things. It is litterally the kind of thing people would be calling on Corbyn to say, if he had indeed not indeed been saying it. "Why won't you call Anti-Semitism what it is: racism! Mr Corbyn?" Andrew Marr leans in, looking serious. Desiderata fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 15:23
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Julio Cruz posted:how hard do you have to be clutching at straws when your main attack on Corbyn is “he didn’t condemn antisemitism, he condemned antisemitism and other forms of racism too To be fair, I'll agree that it can come across as a bit "All lives matter". And while we can probably say that BAME targeted or Islamophobia or anti-traveller racism may be a larger problem in British society as a whole than AS that's not (as it appears from therattle) how it should be addressed when you are being asked about AS in particular. There is, after all, plenty of time to discuss those in different settings.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:25
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G1mby posted:To be fair, I'll agree that it can come across as a bit "All lives matter". And while we can probably say that BAME targeted or Islamophobia or anti-traveller racism may be a larger problem in British society as a whole than AS that's not (as it appears from therattle) how it should be addressed when you are being asked about AS in particular. There is, after all, plenty of time to discuss those in different settings. Weirdly enough the time to discuss those in different settings never materialised.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:33
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Guavanaut posted:They take it seriously in America. Huh, I had an ex from Bay City. She did not turn my cock back, that I can recall.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:46
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I remember the big THE COMPUTER KNOWS adverts they did for car tax just before they stopped making you need discs. Like one step removed from a Paranoia game.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:52
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Shopping information update: I’ve been doing availability of slots and veg box subscription checks through the whole of coronavirus and with the slots I’m only seeing a small increase in bookings so this panic buying hashtag has to be bullshit.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:56
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I went to the shops today for work and I would certainly suggest people are panicking a bit, it was absolutely packed for a sunday.
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Nov 1, 2020 15:57
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Yeh what I’m seeing indicates a few people doing the weekly shop before Thursday, and also people who “don’t trust the internet with my credit card!” are out but the increase in slot capacity the supermarkets introduced is holding. You can get delivery slots tomorrow for Sainsbury’s, Morrison’s however seem to have taken blocks of slots out of circulation this time round.
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Nov 1, 2020 16:01
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The stores seemed to be struggling for staff which didn't help, I think a lot are isolating or sick at the moment.
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Nov 1, 2020 16:02
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The press have tried and succeeded in creating a hierarchy of racism so I'm glad that Corbyn kept condemning all kinds of racism.
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Nov 1, 2020 16:06
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G1mby posted:To be fair, I'll agree that it can come across as a bit "All lives matter". And while we can probably say that BAME targeted or Islamophobia or anti-traveller racism may be a larger problem in British society as a whole than AS that's not (as it appears from therattle) how it should be addressed when you are being asked about AS in particular. There is, after all, plenty of time to discuss those in different settings. if these other forms of racism are just as prevalent (or even more so) in society and in the party then why was Corbyn asked about antisemitism all the loving time and never about the others? surely a media that genuinely gave a poo poo about racism and discrimination as a whole would want those to be sorted out too, right?
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Nov 1, 2020 16:07
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Lidl was fairly quiet here. Of course, there is going to be a massive class element to this - the people who can afford to stockpile are the middle classes. Those are also the people with the space at home to store a stockpile and a car to transport said stockpile to said home. Hence why Waitrose and Tesco got cleaned out first, then Karen brought herself to the low of shudder shopping in ASDA with the proles so they got wiped out, and the little ethnic supermarkets around me had pretty much everything except yeast throughout the last lockdown because brown people and labels in foreign are scary.
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Nov 1, 2020 16:07
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If I were going out shopping I’d go for one of the bigger Tesco’s and Sainsbury’s with the scanner/phone app and *dedicated* tills maybe an hour before closing. Hopefully the supermarkets don’t act like colossal tits and shorten the opening hours again. *There tends to be a backlog when they are shared with the checkouts you put stuff though.
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Nov 1, 2020 16:08
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Julio Cruz posted:if these other forms of racism are just as prevalent (or even more so) in society and in the party then why was Corbyn asked about antisemitism all the loving time and never about the others? surely a media that genuinely gave a poo poo about racism and discrimination as a whole would want those to be sorted out too, right? Right - I don't think the media does give a poo poo, and that a lot of this was a stick to beat Corbyn with. I'm sympathising with therattle here - they thought it was tone deaf and I can see how it came across like that. A party that was managing to lead the narrative might have had better luck pushing the other anti-racist messages, but I agree that the media may well have not allowed that. It's possible both things can be true, that Corbyn just wasn't personally good at getting the point across (which left him vulnerable to the media) and the media had it out for him anyway. Could Big John have done better? Maybe, and I'm sorry we'll likely never get to find out.
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Nov 1, 2020 16:19
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