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Rustybear posted:Corbyn... will likely be retiring from [his seat] at the next election I may be wrong but I really doubt Corbyn will ever retire/not stand for that seat unless he loses it at an election. His sense of duty to his community is too great plus he's an enormously popular constituency MP. I wouldn't be surprised if he held it as an independent. He's not Simon Danczuk.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:51
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I've been avoiding news all weekend and now I feel I missed something - are we in national lockdown again this week? I'm seeing reports about lockdown extended until December, but can't tell if this is the regional one or national one. I can't keep up with whats policy, whats being leaked and what is a discussion about leaks that might end up being policy.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:52
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Zohar posted:So close to getting it I don't think there's ever any real chance of these idiots 'getting it'. Maybe covid, if we're lucky
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Nov 1, 2020 18:54
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Rustybear posted:Honestly the idea that Corbyn is some sort of politically useless stick in the mud is bizarre. Who does it help to make Starmer more unpopular with the electorate? And what 'concessions' could Corbyn ask for apart from being let back into the party? This has all the hallmarks of a gently caress-up neither of them wanted, and the negotiation currently happening likely cover nothing more than what Corbyn is going to write in his apology/'clarification' and how long he has to remain suspended for it to not make everyone look worse.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:54
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justcola posted:I've been avoiding news all weekend and now I feel I missed something - are we in national lockdown again this week? I'm seeing reports about lockdown extended until December, but can't tell if this is the regional one or national one. I can't keep up with whats policy, whats being leaked and what is a discussion about leaks that might end up being policy. Um, yeah. Lockdown 2 going to vote on Wednesday to start Thursday. No going outside except for essentials etc, can meet one other person for a picnic or something, no pubs, restaurants or non-essential shops. Supposedly ends 2nd December but it'll be the rest of the year.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:55
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Rustybear posted:They give the same answer? The difference is McDonnell is giving prepared remarks with no questions whereas Corbyn is in a live interview where the journalist is trying to set up a 'do you condemn the IRA?' gotcha over and over. He should have gone for the gotcha headline of "new leader Corbyn apologises for past positions" and embraced the denunciations from the World Socialist and Socialist Appeal types. He's not running on any Northern Ireland policy that is not 'yay Good Friday'. The last election that featured it in any way was in 1993. Nobody that matters on the left is rallying for the dissident Republican movement today. Corbyn, by the way, is being evasive regardless - you know, and I know, and Nolan knew, that Corbyn in fact once supported unilateral withdrawal from Northern Ireland, regarded the only viable political solution as unification, and regarded continued British presence as sustained only by indefinite military occupation. There's where the interview was almost certainly going to go before Corbyn crashed and burned on the first softball question. Corbyn is attempting to redirect the topic, he's just not succeeding because he trips on the first vault. McDonnell's reply is worth unpicking further. There's a trick three-year-olds develop called theory of mind - they begin to understand that other people have beliefs about the world that are different from their own. An analogous concept that undergraduates sometimes struggle with is the idea that they can personally subscribe to one school of thought but should also, at a bare minimum, be able to give an empathetic engagement of other schools, especially if they are common in the literature likewise - the Leader of the Labour Party is talking to the mainstream and its narrative of the peace process, not the one the left tells to itself. The mainstream narrative is of leaders bravely compromising and risking the wrath of their own supporters in order to obtain the greatest good, Peace and Coexistence. Justice, you will note, is conspicuous by its absence. McD picks this up and positions himself as one of those brave sacrificers: yes, he says, I said all that, but I'm very sorry for what I said and I plead that I did it to achieve Peace and Coexistence. The left, on the other hand, narrates the peace process as bombing the occupying power to the table, with revolutionary violence as the expression of natural justice - which, true or not, strikes most people as deeply repellent even whilst it delights leftists. This is a bit 201 though - Corbyn, then freshly minted Leader, struggled to vault a much lower bar. He says "I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides as well" and then repeatedly struggles to say the logical equivalent of the IRA being one of those sides: "I condemn the bombings by the IRA". Corbyn cannot even bring himself to say it without also wigging out and sputtering AND ALSO THE BRITISH - revealing this aspect of the new Labour leader was exactly what the BBC Radio Nolan interview was about. And giving away all this just to win an argument over a political battle from two decades ago? Really? The hill one is dying on doesn't even exist any more. Corbyn does become a little better at interviews subsequently. ronya fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 19:01
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stev posted:Um, yeah. Thanks! I couldn't seem to find a clear answer anywhere. Something I've been thinking about a bit is how do you find all this out if you didn't have the internet or a TV, just word of mouth, wake up in a hospital bed from a coma and find everything is deserted etc. how are you meant to know whats going on? Going out and about today I thought restrictions had been lifted if anything. I hope schools shut as I don't want the adults I teach to be put at risk. I don't understand the insistence on schools being kept open but then, the only lens I can understand politics is cruelty and stupidity, so keeping them open is a good fit.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:06
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fridge corn posted:Tbh I'm glad Corbyn was beaten to death with the antisemitism stick cuz it is a particularly insidious form of racism and now people are much more aware of it than before Points to crowd of braying nazis waving England flags, confederate flags and definitely non nazi flags, dragging a huge banner saying “PUT HIM IN THE COR-BIN” and going “also huh these guys are really riled up about antisemitism huh”
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Nov 1, 2020 19:08
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jabby posted:Who does it help to make Starmer more unpopular with the electorate? Well because if you want a left(er) agenda at the forefront of Starmer's policy programme it's a pressure point that he can't just track right with zero consequence. Perhaps the way that post is written is poor but I'm not saying it's an 11d chess move from Corbyn to wrongfoot Starmer, I'm saying that Corbyn could have said nothing or said something and saying something in the end probably worked out better for the left of the party than just going quietly into the night. As for concessions I haven't a clue but I'm sure Len will, it will be around allocation of funding to candidates/policy proposals, the nudging of favored underlings towards minor positions etc. a million small but vital things that make the political machine turn. It may well be that Kier's price is to keep Corbyn out to avoid looking weak, but there will be a price to mitigate further LABOUR CIVIL WAR headlines. Rustybear fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 19:11
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ronya posted:He should have gone for the gotcha headline of "new leader Corbyn apologises for past positions" and embraced the denunciations from the World Socialist and Socialist Appeal types. He's not running on any Northern Ireland policy that is not 'yay Good Friday'. The last election that featured it in any way was in 1993. Nobody that matters on the left is rallying for the dissident Republican movement today. In the spirit of understanding other points of view it's really not the greatest masterclass in how to finesse a hard interview question but this was never Corbyn's great strength. It's also easy to forget from the 2020 hellscape of screaming demagogues that in 2015 people had come out of nearly 20 years of Blair and Cameron smooth talking and Corbyn's lack of slickness was a lot more endearing. I really think most of the difference between the two is nobody is actively trying to derail McDonnell; if the man from the Daily Mail was in the audience shouting 'did you know the bombers Mr McDonnell?' over and over it would come across quite different. edit: do you think mcdonnell benefited from his superior handling of these questions? it's old graves to me, but i recall mcdonnell being raked over the coals just as hard which puts the lie to the idea that there was any way out these lines of questioning that didn't end in IRA bomber headlines Rustybear fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 19:20
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Bobby Deluxe posted:The EHRC report literally says he tried to speed up and seek harsher punishments - it's criticism is only over whether he should or shouldn't have. There's an entire episode of Panorama detailing how a PLP chud held up AS investigations to make him look bad. The Labour leaks show the bulk of the party mechanisms were working against him and actively threw the election to get him out. I just want to get back to this. I have read a lot of posts in response to me about the mountain of evidence that the machine was working against Corbyn. By ignoring that evidence I am arguing in bad faith. I assume that the evidence in question is derived from the report. 1) A central plank of my argument is that: i) there was a problem with AS in the party (which some people still deny); and ii) that the leadership and Corbyn in particular were slow to respond to it, and could have done so better. The report actually confirms both of these positions, but that is often completely overlooked 9although heavy reliance is placed on other elements of the report which suit the argument better). 2) The report is being treated as gospel. But it was compiled by internal Labour staffers (Corbyn supporters, I believe), and not by an independent person or body (note: I am not suggesting that the EHRC is wholly independent or unbiased). It presented statements that were taken out of context, and others which have been flatly denied. Thomas Gardiner* formally told Jenny Formby that it gave an intentionally misleading picture. The GMB issued a statement that said "We are deeply concerned with the report, and the means by which it was commissioned, created, and made public. It is also disappointing that much of the report diverts from the scope of its declared intention, which was to look into the Labour Party’s response to antisemitism." (One may ask why it deviated from the stated intention). So I don't regard it as persuasive. We all choose what we want to believe and disbelieve. Let's not pretend like it's some objective truth and I am simply refusing to acknowledge it. I have my worldview - and you have yours. *"Thomas Gardiner, Labour’s director of governance and legal until last month, wrote that the report should not be circulated because party employees’ emails and WhatsApp messages had been “presented selectively and without their true context in order to give a misleading picture”." learnincurve posted:Did did I just read the “there are lots of Jews in entertainment ergo they have power an influence” argument? Because it’s been a while, last heard it maybe 2002? No you didn't. You read that Jews are not underrepresented in the professions and the media in the way that BAME people are. Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:excellent I can't find the stats without getting as bunch of articles about how Jews control the media, but I work in film (and TV, a bit), and I can tell you, we are not underrepresented in the media industry. It's a fact, presented without judgment.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:26
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G1mby posted:That while they are being asked about AS they don't need to talk about other forms of racism. Purely as a media tactic to focus on one thing at a time. I'd certainly agree that I don't think AS is more important/worse than other forms and I'd also agree that Corbyn doesn't either. It might have been a better media strategy, it might not. It seems to have rubbed at least therattle up the wrong way and we know that polling suggested that this was a common attitude in the jewish community. if you're part of a discriminated-against minority and you get pissy with Corbyn for talking about other discriminated-against minorities then you're probably a bit of a oval office jabby posted:A lot of us criticised BoJo for doing the exact same thing over Islamophobia. He opened an inquiry into "all forms of prejudice". If you have a specific problem with one type of prejudice it doesn't help to keep condeming 'all racism'. It comes off as dismissive. how much of the criticism was because the scope was too broad, and how much was because it was an enquiry into prejudice run by the Tories and therefore having all the legitimacy of a peerage bought for £19.99 from be-a-lord.com
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Nov 1, 2020 19:29
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justcola posted:Thanks! I couldn't seem to find a clear answer anywhere. Something I've been thinking about a bit is how do you find all this out if you didn't have the internet or a TV, just word of mouth, wake up in a hospital bed from a coma and find everything is deserted etc. how are you meant to know whats going on? I think everyone got a text message or alert on their phone last time didn't they? Oh and that letter from boris we weren't important enough to get in wales e: though checking mine that linked to the .gov website for info too Skarsnik fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 19:30
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therattle posted:1) A central plank of my argument is that: i) there was a problem with AS in the party (which some people still deny); have you tried going and arguing with them instead of pretending that this thread believes that? it might be a better use of your time
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Nov 1, 2020 19:33
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therattle posted:This is a fantastic post and articulates what I’ve been saying about McDonnell being a much more astute politician than Corbyn, and that the strong feeling was that Corbyn didn’t want to resolve this until it was too late. How do you think it feels to a Jew to see this happening? Yeah we all know McDonnell is better at politics than Corbyn but Corbyns principled inept jam grandpa bit is also why he was able to be a dark horse and reach a position to tap into something with the electorate, it's not a new insight. But the idea that that difference in approach is a meaningful factor in the AS story compared to the absurd media campaign of the last three years is just ridiculous. I'm king poo poo of 'I think they're wrong but sort of understand how they got there so pls no bully' and if we can have sympathy for duped brexiters and working class tory voters it's way easier to have sympathy for Jews that have been told for years that the first possible route towards decency in a generation is actually Hitler so Be Scared, this thread has had nothing but sympathy for young and working-class Jewish people that want a better country but have been bullied into sincerely feeling excluded from the movement. It's why Jewdas was so popular ITT, they were articulating a route out of that dogshit. People were inspired by Corbyns Labour because they had sympathy for people that need help, be it poor families or the disabled or the elderly or minority ethnic groups or whoever, if the fash went marching through Stoke Newington to have a go at 'the fuckin' hasids' the people meeting them on the streets would 100% be Corbynites. I'm sorry but if you're expecting sympathy for that in the context of the destruction of the UK left then get hosed, that isn't even All Lives Matter it's just obnoxious. How do you think it feels as a disabled person to see this happening? How do you think it feels as single mum to see this happening?
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Nov 1, 2020 19:36
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Julio Cruz posted:have you tried going and arguing with them instead of pretending that this thread believes that? it might be a better use of your time There are definitely people in C-SPAM who believe that. Arguing with them is pointless. I may be confusing this thread with that one but I’m pretty sure there are posters here who believe it too.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:37
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I was under the impression that the labour party is statistically less antisemitic than the general population, which I would find difficult to characterise as "the party has a problem with antisemitism"
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Nov 1, 2020 19:39
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Drone_Fragger posted:Points to crowd of braying nazis waving England flags, confederate flags and definitely non nazi flags, dragging a huge banner saying “PUT HIM IN THE COR-BIN” and going “also huh these guys are really riled up about antisemitism huh” Not entirely sure what the point of your post is
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Nov 1, 2020 19:39
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Skarsnik posted:
I'm in Cardiff and I got the letter - patronising bullshit about a month after the lockdown started
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Nov 1, 2020 19:39
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therattle posted:but I’m pretty sure there are posters here who believe it too. Really? Is this another one of those things you've just made up in your head?
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Nov 1, 2020 19:40
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fridge corn posted:Not entirely sure what the point of your post is Highlighting the examplary punnage of Corbyn and bin
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Nov 1, 2020 19:40
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Corgarbage
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Nov 1, 2020 19:41
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Just came across this guy at the Telegraph lol kingturnip posted:I don't think there's ever any real chance of these idiots 'getting it'. My point was more like if he had a brain he would be able to put 2 and 2 together but that's a counterfactual Zohar fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 19:42
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Vitamin P posted:Yeah we all know McDonnell is better at politics than Corbyn but Corbyns principled inept jam grandpa bit is also why he was able to be a dark horse and reach a position to tap into something with the electorate, it's not a new insight. But the idea that that difference in approach is a meaningful factor in the AS story compared to the absurd media campaign of the last three years is just ridiculous. I’m being slow (there’s an open goal for someone): I don’t quite get your last paragraph. Please clarify.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:45
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TheRat posted:Really? Is this another one of those things you've just made up in your head? Look 3 posts above yours. Jesus, that was too easy.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:46
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therattle posted:Look 3 posts above yours. Jesus, that was too easy. I mean if you would like to address that point it might be a good idea. Because normally if you have a subgroup that has a reduced incidence of a bad thing than the general population you don't go around saying the subgroup has a problem with the thing, you would normally say that the subgroup is doing quite well at keeping the thing out? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 19:48
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therattle posted:I just want to get back to this. I have read a lot of posts in response to me about the mountain of evidence that the machine was working against Corbyn. By ignoring that evidence I am arguing in bad faith. I assume that the evidence in question is derived from the report. the only people who still care to argue about the original claims are diehard partisans who will never ever leave the jungle and admit the war is over. do you genuinely think people will read these posts and go wow this particular assemblage of the same facts has finally shifted the scales from my eyes.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:49
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therattle posted:Look 3 posts above yours. Jesus, that was too easy. Owl also thinks that education is bad so you might not want to use him as a barometer of general feeling ITT
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Nov 1, 2020 19:50
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therattle posted:There are definitely people in C-SPAM who believe that. Arguing with them is pointless. I may be confusing this thread with that one but I’m pretty sure there are posters here who believe it too. You should go back to CSPAM and give it another go. https://twitter.com/evoespueblo/status/1322969522442326017?s=19
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Nov 1, 2020 19:51
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Ah this brings back memories of Jacqui Smith and ID cards and how all her friends couldn't wait to get one. Also IIRC her husband got done for paying for porn with expenses or something?
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Nov 1, 2020 19:52
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therattle posted:I’m being slow (there’s an open goal for someone): I don’t quite get your last paragraph. Please clarify. Treating the AS stuff as though there isn't a wider political and media context for the story shits on the vulnerable groups being abused and mudered by the austerity policies Corbyns Labour was the only viable fightback against in a generation it's not complicated.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:53
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Renfield posted:I'm in Cardiff and I got the letter - patronising bullshit about a month after the lockdown started well I got stiffed then, bojo! 
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Nov 1, 2020 19:54
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Convex posted:Ah this brings back memories of Jacqui Smith and ID cards and how all her friends couldn't wait to get one. Also IIRC her husband got done for paying for porn with expenses or something? Lol this reminds me of George Galloway's legendary speech about New Labour taking money from Dirty Desmond. https://youtu.be/ZvIFfQqqmO0
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Nov 1, 2020 19:56
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Z the IVth posted:The problem with journalists is that the good ones put themselves in the line of fire for their job and get shot for their troubles. Maybe they could all agree to break big stories together so it never really comes out who wrote it, but that would require unio- *heaving* unionisi- *centrist retching noises* Actually no, I bet there's a journalists union and it has really good perks, despite all that the journo class have done to destroy the unions for everyone else. Peak FYGM. Then again I wish that if the lazy cowards* were going to just sit on twitter and spin whatever AP says into 750 words, they'd stop pretending to be on par with proper investigative journalists who do put themselves at risk. Andrew Neil probably gets paid fifty times what everyone else does, but I bet the fat oval office only leaves his desk to have big dinners with 'cabinet sources.' * And I say this as a lazy coward myself. I still want to go on the pod at some point, but equally I'm pretty sure it will instantly alert some incredibly insane people to my social media and I'm not very good at handling that (or if i'm honest, keeping up with the discord).
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Nov 1, 2020 19:56
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OwlFancier posted:I mean if you would like to address that point it might be a good idea. Unlike a society, a party chooses who to allow in or exclude. If there is a prevalence of something within a subgroup that is increasing, and contrary to that subgroup’s stated values, then it has a problem. But thanks for illustrating my point so quickly. Rustybear posted:the only people who still care to argue about the original claims are diehard partisans who will never ever leave the jungle and admit the war is over. No, but it’s important to me (for whatever reason) that I’m not seen to be arguing insincerely or in bad faith. Julio Cruz posted:Owl also thinks that education is bad so you might not want to use him as a barometer of general feeling ITT You didn’t say general view (or I would have agreed with you). To be honest, this feels like petty points scoring. But it is worth pointing out that quite a lot of people still don’t accept that there was/is a problem.
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Nov 1, 2020 19:57
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there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, and it is all specifically produced by Jeremy Corbyn there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, and it specifically comes from the far-left faction of the party there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, above and beyond any other similar mainstream political party there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, inasmuch as there is a problem with antisemitism in all the political parties there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, in the sense that any antisemitism is always a problem
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Nov 1, 2020 19:59
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therattle posted:Unlike a society, a party chooses who to allow in or exclude. If there is a prevalence of something within a subgroup that is increasing, and contrary to that subgroup’s stated values, then it has a problem. and the evidence that antisemitism in Labour is/was increasing is...where? and no, more reporting and more disciplinary actions taken does not mean more/worse antisemitism
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Nov 1, 2020 20:00
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therattle posted:Look 3 posts above yours. Jesus, that was too easy. Your strawmanning is getting really old, really fast.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:01
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Convex posted:Ah this brings back memories of Jacqui Smith and ID cards and how all her friends couldn't wait to get one. Also IIRC her husband got done for paying for porn with expenses or something? Yeah, he bought PPV porn on a Virgin Media account which Smith was claiming on expenses. Now why she should even get to claim non-PPV telly on expenses I don't know, but what an innocent time it was when *that* was a resigning matter.
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Nov 1, 2020 20:03
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Does anyone else feel themselves wanting to disconnect entirely from politics/society when bullshit like this happen? Like I could totally just go live in the woods for a year or two right? Plenty of acorns and mushrooms to keep me going, maybe the odd stoat. No covid in the woods!
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Nov 1, 2020 20:04
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