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Azran posted:AU as a concept began with G Gundam, right? I've never watched Victory or F91 but I'd always wondered if they would've been UC shows at all had that concept existed at the time, but apparently F91 was also directed by Tomino so I assume he just likes to make settings weirder as they move on in time? It was the first Gundam anime after CCA, so it was trying to soft reboot Gundam away from Zeon, Amuro, and Char. They did a kind of similar thing earlier with Metal Armor Dragonar, which was basically redoing the original Gundam as a premise, but with none of the continuity baggage. G was enough of a success that Sunrise kept with new Gundam settings long enough to get SEED as a smash hit guaranteeing the formula would continue, but they'd been trying to find something in that neighborhood for a long time.
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Nov 7, 2020 05:05
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That implies wing wasn't a huge success
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Nov 7, 2020 06:14
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Stairmaster posted:That implies wing wasn't a huge success G was a hit, and Wing was a slightly bigger hit, but neither was as big as Zeta in its prime. Then X and (sadly) Turn A flopped. It was a mixed track record. SEED was an absurd success as far as ratings went, which was followed by Destiny being a loser as far as Gunpla sales, which all added up to tell Bandai that new Gundam universes was probably the best way forward.
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Nov 7, 2020 06:24
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they've basically always been chasing the dragon of a show that both sells gunpla *and* character merch. ibo is probably the closest they've gotten at accomplishing that even though it didn't do as well as seed. 00 sold a ton of character merch but the only gunpla that sold were the main gundams, iirc. (and this is just guessing but im fairly sure Tieria's don't sell as well as the other three due to their weird designs) thats why you get the attempts to combine the two, like the pilot's face being on the gunpla box or the action bases with a character's face on them.
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Nov 7, 2020 07:22
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They'd probably do better if they stopped making absolute nothing protagonist characters. I don't hate Banager like a lot of people seem to but there's no denying he's a dud.
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Nov 7, 2020 13:15
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its mostly uc stuff that has that problem tbh. all the AU stuff has protagonists who at least serve some kind of purpose beyond existing. Domon: He's a fairly stock shonen protag but that's pretty different from previous Gundam protagonists, and it fits his series. And he has a noticeable arc in terms of how he treats Rain/how much he trusts other people. He's fine. Heero: He's a pretty perfect protagonist for Wing even if he isn't exactly leaping off the screen, and there's plenty of bold writing decisions with him. 'I'll kill you' and such. And it's nice that there's no moment where he suddenly becomes an earnest nice guy, his development is pretty subtle and he's still recognizably himself. Garrod: Has a ton of personality and is very active, doesn't develop much outside his relationship with Tifa but that's fine. Loran: He's a bit TOO perfect a guy, it'd be nice if he had some more conflict that was his fault, but he works for what Turn-A wants to do and he has decent interactions with other characters. Kira: Look, 'jesus' and 'whining' memes aside he's alright. He has some personality. He's used kind of poorly by the show he's in but as a character on his own he works, he's a bit stock but he has some funny exchanges with Mu and Cagalli and he has actual flaws as a character. The show immediately tries to excuse and ignore them, but that's the show, not him. Shinn: Great character that is unfortunately the protagonist of Gundam Seed Destiny. Setsuna: He starts out very good but slowly goes through a personality eraser machine ending up in a way more annoying place than even Kira at his worst. RIP. Gundam Age, in General: okay look I'll stand by Asemu being a decent character who deserved a way better show. 'guy who's an oldtype whose dad was a newtype and his struggles to keep up with newtypes and live up to that standard' is a great concept. It's in Gundam Age. But the components are there. Bellri: I don't think I could describe Bellri's personality to you because the show doesn't really focus on characterizing him much, but he's never boring to be around so he has that over a lot of UC protagonists. Mikazuki: Absolutely rules in every possible way. Just an incredibly distinctive, unique, funny, likeable character, who still has obvious flaws and problems. It's incredible that they pull off Mika as well as they do because even just one or two small changes and he'd be utterly insufferable. Think about it. 'Insane badass who's a way better pilot than anyone else in the universe, has two women in love with him, is trusted like a brother by the Cool Older Guy, violently pwns the bad guys and dismissively insults them as he does it.' Instead Mikazuki just comes off like a mildly confused puppy. It's the part of IBO people don't give nearly enough credit I think, Mikazuki is an incredibly executed balancing act that the show pulls off pretty effortlessly. Meanwhile, describe literally anything about Shiro, Kou, or Banagher.
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Nov 7, 2020 13:35
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Endorph posted:Meanwhile, describe literally anything about Shiro, Kou, or Banagher. Kou hate carrots.
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Nov 7, 2020 13:42
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Kou doesn't like carrots. Edit: ^^^ drat you!
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Nov 7, 2020 13:45
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well guess that settles it, kou is the most dynamic and complex character in the franchise
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Nov 7, 2020 13:51
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Endorph posted:
Sorry, I was thinking of UC specifically, you're right. It's like, look at Amuro and Kamille. They both have very distinct personalities (even with the vagaries of Tomino characterizations), and are like weirdly intense. Shiro and Kou are both like lame everymen, Shiro having the trait "in love" and Kou "Am dumb", and Banager is Banager.
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Nov 7, 2020 13:56
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Mika is Just so good, they find the perfect balance between making him equally parts cool and likeable, and also very disturbing.
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Nov 7, 2020 14:25
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I'll actually go to bat for the AGE protagonists, in concept. Flit and Asemu have interesting concepts. Flit, conceptually, is kind of like a blend between Amuro and Kamille. He's simultaneously initially a noncombatant who is thrust into a position where he's the only one who can fight the enemy like Amuro, but he's also spoiling for a fight and revenge like Kamille is at the start. His interactions with Yurin are the real interesting part, though; he builds a fairly stock Lalah-style relationship with her, and then she dies for him; except unlike Amuro, who was personally traumatized but otherwise buried his grief inside and tried to get over it, Yurin's death basically consumes Flit's entire life. It would be like if Lalah dying caused Amuro to join the Titans and devote his life to stamping out every vestige of Zeon forever in a misguided attempt to prevent that sort of tragedy from ever happening again. Asemu is interesting because his entire schtick is that he has a huge legacy to live up to - brilliant newtype top ace father, chosen inheritor of the protagonists' headliner mobile suit and its successor - and circumstances mean that he just can't. He's not a newtype and he never will be, no matter how hard he tries, and that fact basically eats him up from the inside out for a significant portion of his arc until he decides to try to find another path to success. He finds his own path but it's not one that leads to ultimate victory, which leads both him and his estranged father to grow older and more bitter as both of them try to solve the same problem - how to stop the Vagans - from completely different angles without either finding success. The actual execution of a lot of these character beats is poo poo because it's AGE, but I really like the ideas on display there, if nothing else.
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Nov 7, 2020 14:27
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Kanos posted:I'll actually go to bat for the AGE protagonists, in concept. Flit and Asemu have interesting concepts.
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Nov 7, 2020 14:35
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I wish Shiro was everyman protag instead of wishy washy pacifist because dick hard
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Nov 7, 2020 15:45
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I’m about halfway through F91 and people weren’t kidding when they said this movie was insanely fast paced. With a bunch of jump forwards I feel like I’ve missed a scene or something but really it’s parts of the story that got skipped over.
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Nov 7, 2020 19:47
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hostess with the Moltres posted:I’m about halfway through F91 and people weren’t kidding when they said this movie was insanely fast paced. With a bunch of jump forwards I feel like I’ve missed a scene or something but really it’s parts of the story that got skipped over. several scenes, actually. episodes even.
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Nov 7, 2020 19:58
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Finished F91. I liked the animation and mech designs but the story left a lot to be desired, especially with how everything including character arcs progressed so quickly. It doesn’t help that most of the cast feel like very standard gundam characters. Seabrook’s mom stands out as a parent who survives all the way through a gundam story.
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Nov 7, 2020 21:23
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F91 is interesting because I think the introduction and the climax are both perfectly fine for a movie length feature and it's primarily the middle that is smooshed beyond belief. The Rafflesia fight is a great Gundam Final Battle.
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Nov 7, 2020 21:27
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hostess with the Moltres posted:Finished F91. I liked the animation and mech designs but the story left a lot to be desired, especially with how everything including character arcs progressed so quickly. It doesn’t help that most of the cast feel like very standard gundam characters. Seabrook’s mom stands out as a parent who survives all the way through a gundam story. RIP her scooter though.
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Nov 7, 2020 21:31
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Endorph posted:they've basically always been chasing the dragon of a show that both sells gunpla *and* character merch. ibo is probably the closest they've gotten at accomplishing that even though it didn't do as well as seed. 00 sold a ton of character merch but the only gunpla that sold were the main gundams, iirc. (and this is just guessing but im fairly sure Tieria's don't sell as well as the other three due to their weird designs) I wouldn't have thought SEED, Destiny or even previous shows like Turn A, X or Wing sold much outside the main Gundams either. I know a lot of people like Wing's grunts, but there's almost no gunpla of them, so I assume Banrise has never invested heavily in them or trusted they'd sell despite the apparent love for those in places I'd visit. Not even all the main Gundams in SEED were doing well in gunpla sales, since by at least popular rumour they had to write Dearka as switching sides to buoy sales of the Buster Gundam. I can't imagine it's sales of non-Gundams was much better either frankly, since the Dagger was the only EA mobile suit besides the Gundam, and I've never seen a lot of love for ZAFT machines even if I personally quite like the Guaiz. Was 00 notably worse, or SEED/Destiny notably better for sales of non-Gundams? Endorph posted:Loran: He's a bit TOO perfect a guy, it'd be nice if he had some more conflict that was his fault, but he works for what Turn-A wants to do and he has decent interactions with other characters. I would say that while Loran is superficially perfect, that he's somewhat naive and a bit of doormat who lets other characters boss him around. This is most notable in Guin, but Sochie treats him pretty badly for half the show, including making some outright racist remarks about him because she hates the Moonrace at the time and he just accepts them without remark or struggle. It's only Dianna as Kihel who takes offense on Loran's behalf, and slaps her for her treatment of Loran. Keith does eventually have an argument with Loran about Guin about half way through the show, and Loran is more careful of Guin, and less inclined to go along with his plans after that point but initially he just does whatever Guin wants. Even late in the show when Lily suggests that Loran dress up as Laura to get the Turn A back after Guin has taken it, it's Sochie that speaks up and says she doesn't think that's a good idea while Loran is just sitting there quietly. As for Setsuna? I've always liked that he stayed a socially and emotionally stunted character that was defined by his early childhood traumas. Yeah, he softens up a bit in season two but he's still basically incapable of any kind of real relationship or intimacy and even in the movie can only acknowledge Feldt's feelings without actually returning them in any way. chiasaur11 posted:Kou hate carrots. I don't know if it's really a major part of 0083, since it's been years since I sat down to watch it properly start to finish, but at least in the Rebellion manga they play up his love for machines and mobile suits, the fact he's a bit of a nerd about them etc. I recall Keith and Kou being in the hanger to geek out over the GP Gundams in the anime as well, but I could be getting the anime and manga conflated in my head. I'm pretty sure I remember a scene of Kou trying to set the GP-01 up on his own for space combat once they leave Earth, or having some discussion with Nina about how to do it after examining the settings on his own at the very least. I think between him ignoring Nina to take the GP-01 out into space despite it not being set up for it yet, his distaste for carrots and that he lets Monsha get under his skin a few times you could point to Kou being kind of an immature character too. Which was probably not the intention, but is still there all the same. I would also say that more than "in love", Shiro can probably be described as "wants to be the hero" and I would personally think he's even more of a shounen hero than Domon. Which is saying something, given Domon's show. In the first episode alone Shiro immediately jumps in to battle despite having only a Ball to take on a Zaku II, helps an enemy soldier the second he spots that they're hurt and ends the episode inspiring Aina and Michel by his bravery and tenacity. He almost feels like early story Naruto or something, because he's so excited about going to Earth despite it being because he's a soldier in a war, takes on large odds using odd-ball plans (or odd-Ball plans, I guess) and has a seemingly never ending well of goodwill and self-belief that inspires those around him. Shiro telling Aina that he's going to Earth and that he thinks he's learn something once he gets there feels akin to Naruto saying that he's going to be the Hokage or something every time I watch it. I suppose it's a mix of the music, the slow pan of the Earth as he hugs someone who should be the enemy and how even in a war his main concern is what he'll learn while he's fighting. Endorph posted:There's no way on earth we'll ever get any insider info that portrays anything about Sunrise, Bandai, or anyone involved in it negatively, but I'd love to read a post-mortem on how AGE wound up the way it did. I think there was an interview or two after the show where staff members at least implied Hino was a bit of a dick to work with, because he invoked video-game logic to explain things, skipped a lot of meetings, ignored staff viewpoints on things etc. but I can't find any links to them on a quick Google search, so maybe I'm just mis-remembering other interviews. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 7, 2020 |
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Nov 7, 2020 21:40
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Endorph posted:There's no way on earth we'll ever get any insider info that portrays anything about Sunrise, Bandai, or anyone involved in it negatively, but I'd love to read a post-mortem on how AGE wound up the way it did. Tomino's complained about them often enough to say it's possible to get insider info along those lines. It's just going to be more difficult, especially with the language barrier limiting what we get. Mobile Suit Breakdown in its latest (staggeringly pro-Moon Moon) episode mentioned an interview (that they haven't linked yet) where another Gundam series writer talks about a show with a big spaceship where one writer crashed it without consulting the others beyond tossing off a "Oh, hey, crashed the ship" when he was done. If that story got out in the Sunrise years, I think hoping for behind-the-scenes drama for AGE (in a polite "we're-not-SAYING-it-was-a-shitshow" way) isn't absurd. And yeah. Mika's great. It's interesting to compare him to Setsuna, since they were only a few shows apart and go for the same archetype, but Setsuna gets his emotional distance in the movie treated as this superhuman thing, while Mika is just, well, a hosed up barely-literate-at-best child soldier with a disturbing emptiness inside.
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Nov 7, 2020 23:27
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tsob posted:I wouldn't have thought SEED, Destiny or even previous shows like Turn A, X or Wing sold much outside the main Gundams either. I know a lot of people like Wing's grunts, but there's almost no gunpla of them, so I assume Banrise has never invested heavily in them or trusted they'd sell despite the apparent love for those in places I'd visit. Not even all the main Gundams in SEED were doing well in gunpla sales, since by at least popular rumour they had to write Dearka as switching sides to buoy sales of the Buster Gundam. I can't imagine it's sales of non-Gundams was much better either frankly, since the Dagger was the only EA mobile suit besides the Gundam, and I've never seen a lot of love for ZAFT machines even if I personally quite like the Guaiz. Was 00 notably worse, or SEED/Destiny notably better for sales of non-Gundams?
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Nov 7, 2020 23:42
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Tae posted:I wish Shiro was everyman protag instead of wishy washy pacifist because dick hard Shiro does have a bit of an arc that culminates in the attack on the guerrilla village and then after that he reneges on all of it because dick hard. He goes from a hotheaded idiot who gets by on sheer luck as he wants to kill as many Zekes as possible to having a flirt with pacifism that bites him in the rear end hard. After the guerrilla village gets wiped out and he has to kill to defend himself, he says that he'll fight for his friends and his squad. That should have been where it ended, but then he loving abandons the rest of 08th to go with Aina. The scene where he's trapped in the disabled Ez8 and pretty much gives up on Terry, Karen, Elodore and even that wimp Michel and decides to live for Aina because dick hard is infuriating. It's treated like some great revelation and a positive moment for Shiro but it just makes him an awful person who turned his back on the people who saved his life and trusted him with theirs.
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Nov 8, 2020 04:13
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At least he's horrifically maimed due to his horiness.
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Nov 8, 2020 04:23
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Just going back to writing and behind the scenes trouble, it really seems like IBO was a pretty tight ship. ..by Gundam standards at least. The interviews talk about a lot of changes, but they also talk about long term plans and discussions in the writer room, like Iok as we know him existing because Nagai needed someone to gently caress up everything in the Mobile Armor arc, so Mari Okada basically had to go "What kind of person would be that much of a fuckup?" Similarly, Vidar's arc had so much focus in season 2 because Tekkadan's cast developing too much too early would prevent them from making the mistakes that defined the second season's whole wider plot. It's a different pattern from, say, Zeta where arcs appeared and disappeared depending on who was in charge of a given episode, or AGE abandoning the original plans for arc 2 because audiences wanted more traditional Gundam instead of a school setup. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Dec 27, 2020 |
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Nov 8, 2020 06:31
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I'm rewatching f91 and man it is depressing how newtypes are thought of as mobile suit specialists and just naturally gifted pilots. Thats what the hopes and promises of newtypes devolved into.
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Nov 8, 2020 06:40
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Monaghan posted:I'm rewatching f91 and man it is depressing how newtypes are thought of as mobile suit specialists and just naturally gifted pilots. Thats what the hopes and promises of newtypes devolved into. In the Gundam universe or in our universe?
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Nov 8, 2020 07:21
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Spelling Mitsake posted:In the Gundam universe or in our universe? Mostly gundam universe. I think tomino made a conscious choice to downplay newtypes and their role after cca. But in the Gundam universe newtypes were supposed to be a symbol of the future of humanity and how they can lead to humanity understanding one another. Instead they're ultimately thought of as humans who are really good at piloting war machines .
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Nov 8, 2020 07:43
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Monaghan posted:Mostly gundam universe. I think tomino made a conscious choice to downplay newtypes and their role after cca. But in the Gundam universe newtypes were supposed to be a symbol of the future of humanity and how they can lead to humanity understanding one another. Instead they're ultimately thought of as humans who are really good at piloting war machines . To be fair they never really get a chance to do anything else with their abilities and seem to only really emerge during times of conflict too, so it makes sense(especially with the implications of some of the more recent UC works that the Federation will be putting a lot of effort during the period between Unicorn and F91 downplaying heavily what Newtypes can do from a public perspective)
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Nov 8, 2020 08:33
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Monaghan posted:I'm rewatching f91 and man it is depressing how newtypes are thought of as mobile suit specialists and just naturally gifted pilots. Thats what the hopes and promises of newtypes devolved into. Don't worry, by Victory they break out of that mold by also thought of as useful components of psychic terror weapons.
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Nov 8, 2020 09:15
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Kanos posted:Don't worry, by Victory they break out of that mold by also thought of as useful components of psychic terror weapons. Ahem, psychic genocide weapons. The Angel Halo was about leaving its victims far too dead to be scared.
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Nov 8, 2020 11:30
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The Angel Halo remains one of the most horrifying Gundam super-weapons.
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Nov 8, 2020 18:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Angel Halo remains one of the most horrifying Gundam super-weapons. The Haro that gets big enough to eclipse a planet is arguably worse.
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Nov 8, 2020 18:24
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I'm kind of impressed by how creative some of the apocalyptic weapons Tomino imagines for his shows are. The Bugs in F91 just being robots that seek and kill humans is pretty straight forward, but is presented in a suitably horrific light but the Angel Halo is pretty outside the box in how it works (infantilizing everyone so they can't put up a fight) and the Moonlight Butterfly is just a really cool idea that is never actually explained but I think there's enough implied that it's a pretty well defined system. The show implies that the nanomachines can interact with clouds to spread using the weather, which would allow it to cover the entire planet in relatively short order and mean the pilot doesn't have to do much beyond send out the initial nanomachines to do so. After that, they can rain down on the whole planet and destroy all technology on the surface, and possibly even below it because they can apparently assimilate in to the ground and heal it once they have settled. It's a really simple, but really effective system for affecting an entire planet.
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Nov 8, 2020 18:25
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I saw F91 at an Otakon US premiere in like 2004 or 5 I think. That once was enough, it's a real trip given the story condensing that happens. I agree it could have been a cool series even one in the 32-36 episode range, but the movie has major flaws.
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Nov 8, 2020 18:48
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I think that it could have worked much better either as a standalone movie or the first movie in a set with some minor edits, honestly and that the movie includes several scenes or characters that feel like they'd have been at home in a TV show as it was originally hoped to be, but which stand out as kind of pointless padding in a shorter, ostensibly tighter format. Seabook's sister in general is kind of pointless, and while in a TV show his relationship with her would be a good way to add further nuance to his character, it doesn't add enough to feel worthwhile in the movie. The scene of the technician wonder how the F91 is wired where Seabook's sister reveals her mother's fondness for Cat's Cradle could probably be cut for time for example. Annerose and her infatuation with Zabine and defection because of jealousy could be cut too. The movie does have the bones of a good story, but there's too much fat around it that doesn't actually service the story of Seabook/Cecily's romance, Iron Mask's agenda or even setup for further movies and just feels like remnants of the older production schedule. It feels like it would be vastly improved if Tomino was allowed one or two more passes on the script to rejigger it for the new format, cutting things that don't work anymore and using the time gained within the movie format to better serve the story the movie does want to tell.
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Nov 8, 2020 19:10
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I saw F91 at an Otakon US premiere in like 2004 or 5 I think. That once was enough, it's a real trip given the story condensing that happens. I agree it could have been a cool series even one in the 32-36 episode range, but the movie has major flaws. remake it and give it the unicorn treatment!!! tsob posted:I think that it could have worked much better either as a standalone The scene of the technician wonder how the F91 is wired where Seabook's sister reveals her mother's fondness for Cat's Cradle could probably be cut for time for example yeah but then we wouldnt get like 50% of muv luv
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Nov 8, 2020 19:26
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I literally forgot Seabock had a sister until just this moment.Stairmaster posted:yeah but then we wouldnt get like 50% of muv luv That's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to take.
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Nov 8, 2020 20:01
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then perish
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Nov 8, 2020 20:29
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tsob posted:I'm kind of impressed by how creative some of the apocalyptic weapons Tomino imagines for his shows are. The Bugs in F91 just being robots that seek and kill humans is pretty straight forward, but is presented in a suitably horrific light but the Angel Halo is pretty outside the box in how it works (infantilizing everyone so they can't put up a fight) and the Moonlight Butterfly is just a really cool idea that is never actually explained but I think there's enough implied that it's a pretty well defined system. The show implies that the nanomachines can interact with clouds to spread using the weather, which would allow it to cover the entire planet in relatively short order and mean the pilot doesn't have to do much beyond send out the initial nanomachines to do so. After that, they can rain down on the whole planet and destroy all technology on the surface, and possibly even below it because they can apparently assimilate in to the ground and heal it once they have settled. It's a really simple, but really effective system for affecting an entire planet. The Angel Halo doesn't infantilise people, it just sends out messages of peace and relaxation that lull every sapient being on the planet (including most of the higher animal life) to sleep until they starve to death/die of thirst. It's the ultimate global depopulator.
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Nov 8, 2020 22:55
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