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Leviathan Song posted:Do you have anything to back this up? Everything that I've read about Roman cities is the complete opposite of this assertion. Wikipedia 100% disagrees with you and so do the tour guides at Pompeii and Herculaneum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_dining_in_the_Roman_Empire They had food stalls and common kitchens, but that isn't where modern restaurants evolved from. Dining outside the home was a product of urban squaller and poverty, rather than convenience or taste. It was a matter of literally not having cooking facilities. Restaurants as an institution, something that existed for making food that was seen as desirable, and something that you could go to as an event is a 18th-19th century invention. Notice that this map doesn't consider fruit stalls and the like as restaurants. Sitting down in a restaurant specifically for a meal with things like waitstaff and menus is a recent concept in culinary history. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 01:54
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Grand Fromage posted:That poster is incorrect. In Roman cities most people didn't even have a kitchen, any cooked meal was eaten at a restaurant or as takeout. A lot like Hong Kong. Ah, the grand bizarre of Istanbul is the oldest restaurant in Turkey then?
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Nov 12, 2020 02:00
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There's a whole book that came out recently on the invention of restaurants in 18th-century Paris: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674241770 (though Spang traces them to medical institutions that cropped up in the mid 18th century rather than being post-revolutionary) I've never seen Roman tabernae etc called restaurants outside of pop history, I guess it's a matter of semantics but they were more just food stalls than what we'd think of as a restaurant. e: One of the links from the book page has some global restaurant historians who put the first establishments recognisable as such in 12th-century China - https://www.history.com/news/first-restaurants-china-france Zohar fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 02:08
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Vasukhani posted:They had food stalls and common kitchens, but that isn't where modern restaurants evolved from. Dining outside the home was a product of urban squaller and poverty, rather than convenience or taste. It was a matter of literally not having cooking facilities. Restaurants as an institution, something that existed for making food that was seen as desirable, and something that you could go to as an event is a 18th-19th century invention. Notice that this map doesn't consider fruit stalls and the like as restaurants. Sitting down in a public restaurant specifically for a meal, with a waiter and a fixed menu is a relatively recent concept in culinary history. You seem to have a weird definition of the word restaurant. A building purpose built and staffed to serve people food is a restaurant and ancient Rome had them in droves. I'm pretty sure some of the local ones were more or less desirable. A waiter is the only thing that's missing and I can think of plenty of popular restaurants without them. If you want to say foodie culture or something is a later cultural phenomenon, ok, but restaurants aren't anything new. The Michelin guide literally includes stalls in food halls so I think you're out alone on this one. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/singapore-cheapest-michelin-star-restaurant/index.html
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Nov 12, 2020 02:10
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Vasukhani posted:Ah, the grand bizarre of Istanbul is the oldest restaurant in Turkey then? A bazaar is a market. Restaurants are places you go to eat food.  Here's a well preserved example of a Roman restaurant that I've been to so can comment on. The dining room is off to the left there. The thing that looks like steps is a wine rack, jugs were there so you could see what they had and select your drink. Some of the ready to eat food was stored in those jars in the counter. The kitchen is in the back. It's closer to fast food than fine dining, but McDonald's is still a restaurant. E: Now if what you're actually arguing is the concept of a restaurant as a recreational activity rather than a vital part of daily life, that's a whole other thing. Roman restaurants were for the lower class, nobody with money would be caught dead eating outside their home or a party at someone else's home. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 02:10
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Grand Fromage posted:A bazaar is a market. Restaurants are places you go to eat food. It has benches where you can eat food. So I think it would be safe to call it a restaurant. Thermopolia were for food distribution to the lower classes, they were something you had to eat at, or something you never set foot in during your life. Restaurants, as classified by the map, are sit down institutions, and "going out to eat" is a french rev thing that poor people didn't do well into the second industrial revolution.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:20
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poor people restaurants do not count i will take no questions at this time
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Nov 12, 2020 02:25
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Arglebargle III posted:poor people restaurants do not count are army rations a restaurant is jail hardtack? After all, it is given to me, and eaten inside
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Nov 12, 2020 02:26
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This seems like one of those weird things like universities where yes technically according to arbitrarily strict criteria the first one was in the 12th century in Avignon or whatever the hell, but things that are functionally basically the same thing have existed for far longer in other parts of the world.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:26
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I think it really is a semantic distinction, if you define restaurants as buildings where people can get food then yeah those have been around since antiquity. Scholars would call the thing in the Roman photo a bar. "Restaurant culture" and restaurants as serviced establishments for eating food as a particular social occasion were the thing invented in France (or apparently in Song China in a previous guise).
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Nov 12, 2020 02:28
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My point was that it simply wasn't surprising that there were older restaurants in NA than Europe because "going out to eat," sitting down, and ordering wasn't a thing until the 18th century, so the only European or Eurasian competition would be inns which transitioned to restaurants sometime after industrialization
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Nov 12, 2020 02:30
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rich people sit down to eat like this poor people sit down to eat like THIS
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Nov 12, 2020 02:31
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Vasukhani posted:It has benches where you can eat food. So I think it would be safe to call it a restaurant. Thermopolia were for food distribution to the lower classes, they were something you had to eat at, or something you never set foot in during your life. Restaurants, as classified by the map, are sit down institutions, and "going out to eat" is a french rev thing that poor people didn't do well into the second industrial revolution. You're still not getting it. This wasn't a place that you had to eat at. It was one of at least a half dozen you could choose from. Rich people deigning to eat in a building they didn't own might date to the French revolution but for the vast majority of humanity...that's a restaurant. The map is fine because it's the oldest verified continuously operating restaurants. The actual oldest restaurant in the world is probably some hole in the wall in Beijing or Istanbull or Rome or Bombay that's been quietly dishing out food for a thousand years and no one even knows or cares how old it is.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:34
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The serpent in Genesis was the original restauranteur.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:35
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I think we all take the point about restaurant culture in 18th century France but the idea of defining a restaurant so narrowly seems ridiculous.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:35
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A generic place to get food and eat with others sounds to me like a cafeteria. If I'm ordering food from a counter there's a good chance I'm not at a restaurant. My internal definition of restaurant excludes cafeterias, meal halls and most fast food joints. A restaurant should have someone come to deal with you, should foster discussion and a social experience, and should at least attempt to make quality food. I'm not sure how bars factor in this. And this isn't *just* a stupid semantic discussion by a thread full of pedants. The pandemic is putting huge pressure on the restaurant biz-- its interesting to find out exactly what we mean by this.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:50
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As always, the Empire set the pace.
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Nov 12, 2020 03:15
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Byzantine posted:As always, the Empire set the pace. Vae cenantibus.
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Nov 12, 2020 03:20
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It’s only a restaurant if it’s from the eighteenth century region of France. Otherwise, it’s a sparkling cafeteria.
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Nov 12, 2020 03:22
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It’s only a restaurant if it sells soups.
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Nov 12, 2020 05:32
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How about we say 18th century France is the birthplace of the Modern restaurant and before that were Early Modern Restaurants which themselves were predated by Medieval Restaurants the Restaurants of Antiquity and the proto-Restaurants of the Bronze Age.
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Nov 12, 2020 05:47
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The Chief-Priest of the Hunter Gatherer tribe sat himself down onto the comfortable seat. It was only a cushion made of crudely sewn-together animal skins, untanned and stinking, but it was vast and yielding. He squinted his eyes to read the menu in the light of the fire that burned in the middle of the tent-restaurant. The menu was a piece of wood on which had been drawn several different animals. There were no words, as the Hunter Gatherer Tribe had no system of writing. There were no prices, as the Hunter Gatherer Tribe had no currency. The Chief pointed at the stylized elk on the piece of wood. "An excellent choice, Sir," Said the waiter servant, Who was a member of the Chief's extended family, as was everyone else in the tribe and at the tent-restaurant. The Chief sipped at his water, which was in a shaped and carved gourd as the Hunter Gatherers had no ceramic drinking vessels. This restaurant was 5 outta 5
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Nov 12, 2020 07:02
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Yeah why is this anyway?
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Nov 12, 2020 07:36
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Zohar posted:restaurants as serviced establishments for eating food as a particular social occasion No real person thinks this is what restaurants are.
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Nov 12, 2020 08:48
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Also, those "this establishment dates back X centuries" claims should always be taken with a grain of salt. Usually, when you dig into the claim, they break down like this: 1. The business can be securely documented as being in continuous operation for 200, maybe 300 years. 2. The building is older than that, say 450 years. 3. There are references in even older textual sources to an establishment operating in the area, extending back, say 600 years. This usually gets added up to "this establishment has been in continuous operation for six centuries," even though there are many good reasons to think that that is almost never the case. I lived in Nottingham for a while, and two of the pubs there lay claim to the title of being the oldest in England, dating back to the 12th c. AD. The actual archaeological and historical evidence, however, indicates that continuous operation can only be proven extending back around 300 years for each, and that the structures date to the 14th c. AD at the earliest.
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Nov 12, 2020 09:36
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galagazombie posted:How about we say 18th century France is the birthplace of the Modern restaurant and before that were Early Modern Restaurants which themselves were predated by Medieval Restaurants the Restaurants of Antiquity and the proto-Restaurants of the Bronze Age. There was a thriving Restaurant Culture in the early Bronze Age but unfortunately almost all knowledge of it was lost to the mysterious Sea Peoples.
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Nov 12, 2020 09:54
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Grand Fromage posted:E: Now if what you're actually arguing is the concept of a restaurant as a recreational activity rather than a vital part of daily life, that's a whole other thing. Roman restaurants were for the lower class, nobody with money would be caught dead eating outside their home or a party at someone else's home. I would note also that this view is being changed by recent research on Roman retail eating establishments that suggests that they were probably more ubiquitous and patronized by a broader swathe of the population than previously thought. Here's a quote from the recent, very good book on this topic, The Roman Retail Revolution: The Socio-economic World of the Taberna: quote:P. 245: "What the retail landscapes of the Roman world illustrate are the social and economic profits that came from urban living. With shops outnumbering all other properties, and bars outnumbering all of the many different types of shops, just the frequency alone of food and drink outlets -- not to mention the variety of things on the menu itself -- points to a market of plenty. All of this street-side consumption of food must have propagated the elite preference to eat at home; questions of class interaction -- or rather, avoidance -- aside, the commonality of eating out underscored the exclusivity of home-dining. It also speaks to a density of demand for retailed food and drink, one that can only have been met by a cashed-up supply of urbanites."
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Nov 12, 2020 10:02
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MeinPanzer posted:Also, those "this establishment dates back X centuries" claims should always be taken with a grain of salt. Usually, when you dig into the claim, they break down like this: A good example of this is the Austrian "oldest restaurant", supposedly established in 803. What we really have is Alcuin of York being like "yo, there’s a pub with great beer near Salzburg Abbey" in a poem but there is no way of proving that there has been any continuity with the restaurant we have today. If you are generous you could say that it started in the 16th century when craftsmen and waggoners would be able to cheaply drink wine from the abbey’s cellars which over the centuries first turned into a more steady tavern and finally into a "proper" sit-down restaurant like it is today. The latter only really became a thing during the 19th century, however
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Nov 12, 2020 10:21
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System Metternich posted:A good example of this is the Austrian "oldest restaurant", supposedly established in 803. What we really have is Alcuin of York being like "yo, there’s a pub with great beer near Salzburg Abbey" in a poem but there is no way of proving that there has been any continuity with the restaurant we have today. If you are generous you could say that it started in the 16th century when craftsmen and waggoners would be able to cheaply drink wine from the abbey’s cellars which over the centuries first turned into a more steady tavern and finally into a "proper" sit-down restaurant like it is today. The latter only really became a thing during the 19th century, however Yeah, exactly. Another cheeky example I recently encountered is Tullibardine Whisky Distillery, which prominently advertises its foundation date as 1488. In reality, the distillery has only existed since 1949, and while whisky was being distilled in Scotland in the late 15th c. already, this date comes from a reference to king James IV stopping to order a large quantity of beer from a brewery located somewhere near its current location in 1488. Most people just never bother to interrogate such claims and they just gain currency over time.
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Nov 12, 2020 10:35
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Leviathan Song posted:Do you have anything to back this up? Everything that I've read about Roman cities is the complete opposite of this assertion. Wikipedia 100% disagrees with you and so do the tour guides at Pompeii and Herculaneum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_dining_in_the_Roman_Empire There may be a teeny weeny bit of discontinuity between ancient Rome and 18th century Paris. Whether or not they had restaurants in the ancient city of Ur likewise proabably wouldn't have had much bearing on understanding the development of modern restaurants.
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Nov 12, 2020 11:04
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Arglebargle III posted:I think we all take the point about restaurant culture in 18th century France but the idea of defining a restaurant so narrowly seems ridiculous. Nah, acting like a cafeteria is the same thing as a restaurant is ridiculous.
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Nov 12, 2020 11:09
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Nov 12, 2020 11:15
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MeinPanzer posted:Yeah, exactly. Another cheeky example I recently encountered is Tullibardine Whisky Distillery, which prominently advertises its foundation date as 1488. As an aside, that's certainly a politically-loaded foundation year. 
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Nov 12, 2020 11:15
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Milo and POTUS posted:Yeah why is this anyway? Dunno, but Romanians sure love pets. 
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Nov 12, 2020 11:22
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MeinPanzer posted:Yeah, exactly. Another cheeky example I recently encountered is Tullibardine Whisky Distillery, which prominently advertises its foundation date as 1488. In reality, the distillery has only existed since 1949, and while whisky was being distilled in Scotland in the late 15th c. already, this date comes from a reference to king James IV stopping to order a large quantity of beer from a brewery located somewhere near its current location in 1488. They should put a huge 1488 on their labels to celebrate their heritage
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Nov 12, 2020 11:24
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:They should put a huge 1488 on their labels to celebrate their heritage It's one heil of a distillery.  Also the very friendly lady at the front desk who booked us in for our tour was German 
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Nov 12, 2020 11:35
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MeinPanzer posted:Also the very friendly lady at the front desk who booked us in for our tour was German It would honestly only truly be suspicious if she was American.
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Nov 12, 2020 11:39
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steinrokkan posted:Nah, acting like a cafeteria is the same thing as a restaurant is ridiculous. Yeah, which is why we should stop calling fast food places resteraunts. They dont have waiters, they are just mass market cafeterias!
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Nov 12, 2020 12:48
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Any similar maps for Belgium? My understanding is that in Belgium there are less changes to Zwarte Piet, but suggested changes are also met with a less violent response (compared to, say, Dutchmen setting up road blocks out of protest compared to Belgians posting snide comments on facebook) so I'd be curious to see if there are more or less changes in Belgium vis-a-vis the Netherlands EDIT: also it's only a restaurant if it offers you five courses with suggested wines. Anything less is, at most, a snack bar. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 13:21
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MeinPanzer posted:Yeah, exactly. Another cheeky example I recently encountered is Tullibardine Whisky Distillery, which prominently advertises its foundation date as 1488. In reality, the distillery has only existed since 1949, and while whisky was being distilled in Scotland in the late 15th c. already, this date comes from a reference to king James IV stopping to order a large quantity of beer from a brewery located somewhere near its current location in 1488. 1488 you say? Prominently advertised you say? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Also, are all those places really still planning parades what with the pandemic? Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 13:35
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