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The Oldest Man posted:What a coincidence, my uncle also works at nintendo That bridge is 140’ above harbor island and is 220,000 tons cantilevered above the entrances to the cities main container terminals. Posting harder isn’t going to change what it would take to deal with a structure like that. Explain to the thread how a quick demolition would progress. Think through what would be required to keep the terminals open while it progressed.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:48
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Crumbskull posted:Edit: if you were in the office park by the marina between 8-3 years ago theres a non-zero chance you used to see me walking my dog and chain smoking in the parking lot all the time. Yep I think I remember you. Lol my boss thought you were a prowler. I was the guy that looked like a bearded hobo in varying degrees of shabbiness.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:58
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I mean, same.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:01
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Bar Ran Dun posted:That bridge is 140’ above harbor island and is 220,000 tons cantilevered above the entrances to the cities main container terminals. Posting harder isn’t going to change what it would take to deal with a structure like that. Weird, it's almost like we have city government offices that are staffed and funded to study these things and yet whenever they have the opportunity to include an option that isn't "more car commutes for rich white people" that option somehow never makes the list hmm Literally your response to "the city didn't even bother looking at a 'stop inducing demand for car commutes' option, that's loving lovely" is that I should set up my own civil engineering department with blackjack and hookers and do the study myself? What a loving joke. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 07:10
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You aren’t addressing what I asked. Again I don’t care about the eventually final out come here, other than a preference for more transit. I want you to tell me how you think that bridge can come down quick without interrupting the logistics that literally keep the city running that pass under it. I’m fine with policy that reduces car commutes. No issues there from me. If eventually there is no upper bridge, I’m cool with that.
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Nov 22, 2020 07:56
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Bar Ran Dun posted:You aren’t addressing what I asked. Amusingly, not only are the rail and road routes right under the bridge, but Tideworks main office is right there, too. (I don't think iPro is hosted there but still, that's a major component of most of the northwest's container rail logistics).
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Nov 22, 2020 08:36
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Doccers posted:Amusingly, not only are the rail and road routes right under the bridge, but Tideworks main office is right there, too. (I don't think iPro is hosted there but still, that's a major component of most of the northwest's container rail logistics). Tideworks does all the SSA marine container terminals. Like it’s a good chunk of the computer systems for the whole country’s intermodal system.
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Nov 22, 2020 08:47
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Bar Ran Dun posted:You aren’t addressing what I asked. Given that we do not, in fact, have engineering firms at our disposal, it's hard to loving say. If only there were some sort of entity--maybe one responsible for researching projects like this for the public good--that could examine such an option. If only.
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Nov 22, 2020 09:32
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Thanatosian posted:Given that we do not, in fact, have engineering firms at our disposal, it's hard to loving say. If only there were some sort of entity--maybe one responsible for researching projects like this for the public good--that could examine such an option. If only. So if someone who works at one of those firms tells you something you are asking about isn't possible why are you doubting them if you're saying we should rely on them to figure it out? If you are going to dismiss what an expert has to say without providing a solution yourself what you are doing is asking for a miracle to happen.
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Nov 22, 2020 12:12
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I don't think anyone is posting as an expert in large-scale civil engineering demolitions unless they actually say that specific expertise. WSB is stable enough (as long as the post-tensioning holds) to repair but has a life-time of 15 years or more: do you think at the end of its lifecycle the answer will be to hope that alien flying saucer technology will be available to take it out? Demolition is 100% feasible because the minute you need to replace the drat thing you'd have to have a feasible method to dismantle it.
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Nov 22, 2020 17:25
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Gerund posted:WSB is stable enough (as long as the post-tensioning holds) to repair but has a life-time of 15 years or more: do you think at the end of its lifecycle the answer will be to hope that alien flying saucer technology will be available to take it out? Demolition is 100% feasible because the minute you need to replace the drat thing you'd have to have a feasible method to dismantle it. Oh yeah demolition is feasible. They want it down quick though. That structure has to come down eventually. I just think it’s going to take like a decade, which corresponds to 10-15 years, the time stabilizing it buys.
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Nov 22, 2020 17:35
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Oh yeah demolition is feasible. They want it down quick though. That structure has to come down eventually. I just think it’s going to take like a decade, which corresponds to 10-15 years, the time stabilizing it buys. Yeah, that's not what's happening here. Here's the evaluation matrix the city used to represent the different options. You can see the basic assumptions about what constitutes "good" as far as they're concerned.  The purpose of this study was to figure out how to restore car traffic as quickly as possible. The only question the city asked was this: is it going to be a better option to do a quick fix now and pay a bigger cost later, or is going to be a better option to pay a bigger cost up front? Obviously they picked the fastest "GET CARS BACK" option that doesn't result in the bridge threatening to fall down again in the midst of a hypothetical 2nd Jenny term, but the larger point here is that "no bridge" wasn't studied even as a hypothetical because inconveniencing rich white assholes and threatening their property values is the greatest sin imaginable.
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Nov 22, 2020 18:56
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They should build a pedestrian overpass so you cant get literally trapped on the island by coal trains.
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Nov 22, 2020 20:01
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The Oldest Man posted:Obviously they picked the fastest "GET CARS BACK" option that doesn't result in the bridge threatening to fall down again in the midst of a hypothetical 2nd Jenny term, but the larger point here is that "no bridge" wasn't studied even as a hypothetical because inconveniencing rich white assholes and threatening their property values is the greatest sin imaginable. 1 or 2 or 1 and 2 was going happen basically no matter what to keep the structure from falling. What this would seem to me to mean is that the fight you want have isn’t over.
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Nov 22, 2020 20:30
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Bar Ran Dun posted:1 or 2 or 1 and 2 was going happen basically no matter what to keep the structure from falling. What this would seem to me to mean is that the fight you want have isn’t over. Who said anything about it being over? The harm of this poo poo is ongoing and the fight will never be over as long as we're throwing public dollars hand over fist into subsidies for cars and unsustainable development patterns at the expense of everything else. But the first step in doing something about the coal seam fire that is our public spending is recognizing that it's all wrong poo poo. If you think shoring or repair was always going to be necessary just to keep Harbor Island for showing up in the next Dwayne Johnson disaster movie, why do you hazard the city didn't study it in that context rather than putting "restore vehicle traffic when???" front and center in every conversation about this? Probably because the rich whiteys who voted Durkan into office in the first place demand protection of their commutes and their property values. Can you loving imagine what the legacy media response would have been if "restore vehicle traffic" was not placed as the highest virtue to be protected at all costs? Can you imagine a world in which Jenny Durkan got on TV and said, "Look, the bridge is going to fall down on the port unless we do something, but this is an opportunity to envision how West Seattle might look without inducing demand for thousands of car commutes every day - or thousands of commutes at all - for some of the lowest density, richest, whitest neighborhoods in the city. So we're studying options in which funding to restore the bridge is used to advance and enhance the Sound Transit light rail connection with reduced or no car capacity, and options in which the funding is used to spur equity, affordability, and neighborhood-scale development on the peninsula itself rather than to subsidize unsustainable single-family housing." I mean, I can't, because she's a ghoul and like much of the Dem establishment exists to prevent precisely those types of ideas from ever seeing the light of day. But those options, much like the notion of defunding or abolishing police, must be rammed into the public discourse if we're going to have any hope of finding an offramp from the hell timeline.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:15
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lets blow all our money on the stadiums instead
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Nov 22, 2020 23:43
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Jackard posted:lets blow all our money on the stadiums instead It looks like we're going to get a hockey team and a new arena without any public money at all, so that's nice. Especially since the pricetag for that renovation has increased from the originally estimated $600 million to over $900 million now.
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Nov 23, 2020 04:09
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no bridge isn't an option because cars will still exist, sorry.
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Nov 23, 2020 04:47
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oh the bridge will be replaced alright with a pedestrian and bike only bridge 
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Nov 23, 2020 19:48
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Bar Ran Dun posted:You are upset about the part I’m agnostic about and there is a miscommunication occurring here. My opinion is that all options requires stabilizing the current bridge first. I don’t really have strong opinions about what happens after that. My strong opinion is that I do not want the bridge to fall catastrophically. if they get rid of it long term fine. If they replace it with transit fine. If they replace with an equivalent bridge fine. I don’t have strong opinion about that part. I do have a general preference towards more mass transit. after they do this they should rebuild the bridge from scratch and integrate the new light rail line with it. there's no reason at this point that those two projects should remain separate
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Nov 24, 2020 20:53
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This is maybe the darkest PSA I've ever seen in my life https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1331305361718931457?s=20 But no new stay at home order, no new emergency relief bill, no new jack loving poo poo. Just enjoy running in terror from an invisible serial killer and good luck!
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Nov 24, 2020 21:17
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people will die because politicians are too afraid to make recommendations into mandates
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Nov 24, 2020 23:36
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IM DAY DAY IRL posted:people will die because politicians are too afraid to make recommendations into mandates Part of it is they’ve been hosed by the feds. No aid to states means the state budget is hosed even worse than they already were by the first shutdown . We should have a full stay at home order again anyway. But that there isn’t national coordination and that makes even that less effective. It’s so hosed and I’m so tired. I bought a half face respirator if I have to work indoors.
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Nov 24, 2020 23:59
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IM DAY DAY IRL posted:people will die because politicians are too afraid to make recommendations into mandates A big part of the reason is they don’t make them into mandates is because they don’t want to follow them either. One of the Multnomah County Commissioners is vacationing in Hawaii. The one who’s a doctor. Not quite as prominent as some of the other folks making national news in the “do as I say, not as I do” brigade but just another data point
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Nov 25, 2020 00:01
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I cant decide which is more awesome:The Oldest Man posted:But no new stay at home order, no new emergency relief bill, no new jack loving poo poo. Or IM DAY DAY IRL posted:people will die because politicians are too afraid to make recommendations into mandates Or if its living in a society occupied by the most selfish and dumb assholes in earths history.
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Nov 25, 2020 00:03
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Everytime I come back to this thread I'm reminded that I made a good choice moving to Portland instead of Seattle.
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Nov 25, 2020 00:17
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Oscar Wild posted:Or if its living in a society occupied by the most selfish and dumb assholes in earths history. I don't see these as separate problems. Our government officials hesitate to issue mandates because they know no one will comply and they have very few enforcement mechanisms short of armed police (who are conspiracy theorists themselves), and few carrots or remediation options to help keep people fed and occupied and sheltered during this time so everything becomes a retreat to individual action. On the other side of the coin, individuals are incentivized to act selfishly on the one hand and desensitized to mass death and deprivation on the other because of how little a gently caress the people in power give about any of it and how few consequences there are and so they simply don't include this poo poo in their calculations about their own actions. My mom got on a loving plane and flew to see my sister for no reason a month ago even though everyone told her not to because she just didn't think her own actions mattered to the social crisis so why not indulge herself? And now she doesn't understand why I won't just let it go. So yeah, in my mind Jay Inslee not issuing a stay at home order, people flying for Thanksgiving, the lack of federal bailout dollars to states to help people starving or being made homeless, and lack of enforcement for even step 1 basic baby poo poo like mask mandates are all one problem that can't be addressed in isolation from each other. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 00:42
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The Oldest Man posted:I don't see these as separate problems. Our government officials hesitate to issue mandates because they know no one will comply and they have very few enforcement mechanisms short of armed police (who are conspiracy theorists themselves), and few carrots or remediation options to help keep people fed and occupied and sheltered during this time so everything becomes a retreat to individual action. On the other side of the coin, individuals are incentivized to act selfishly on the one hand and desensitized to mass death and deprivation on the other because of how little a gently caress the people in power give about any of it and how few consequences there are and so they simply don't include this poo poo in their calculations about their own actions. My mom got on a loving plane and flew to see my sister for no reason a month ago even though everyone told her not to because she just didn't think her own actions mattered to the social crisis so why not indulge herself? And now she doesn't understand why I won't just let it go. People being selfish loving idiot assholes flying is definitely a loving problem, but also the airlines shouldn't have even been loving open. Our government and industries are loving murdering us, and we're fine with it.
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Nov 25, 2020 02:17
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Thanatosian posted:People being selfish loving idiot assholes flying is definitely a loving problem, but also the airlines shouldn't have even been loving open. Our government and industries are loving murdering us, and we're fine with it. Maybe the consumers should have the right to murder their friends and family, who's to say?
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Nov 25, 2020 02:32
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There is an implicit cynicism in all of this which is simply state governments refuse to shut down their borders, and rather than try to eradicate the outbreak, they are going to conduct policies that piss off a business the least while somewhat trying to keep the pandemic very modestly in check. So you get scare campaigns and some closures, but very little actual intervention in terms of testing/tracing and/or stay-at-home orders, so essentially the pandemic would go on forever (remember immunity can often only last 6 months) without a vaccine. That said, other massive issues (such as climate change) are and will continue to be approached in the same way since genuine attempts to fix it would be costly and potentially unpopular with businesses so the result is going to be feel-good photo-ops and little else.
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Nov 25, 2020 02:44
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How the gently caress does enforcement even work when you have the sheriffs of major counties like Snohomish refusing to enforce anything because they arbitrarily call any measure “unconstitutional”? You folks whine and complain but there seems to be no loving money and no loving power, so what’s your comprehensive plan when the federal government hosed us all so drat hard?
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Nov 25, 2020 08:32
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Solkanar512 posted:How the gently caress does enforcement even work when you have the sheriffs of major counties like Snohomish refusing to enforce anything because they arbitrarily call any measure “unconstitutional”? This is pretty much what I was getting at above. I'm sure - or, as sure as I can be about any politician - that Jay Inslee actually does give a poo poo and is working the levers as hard as he thinks he can. He's not a Cuomo or a Newsom who I think are basically ghouls who only move when they think they might get politically damaged by inaction and otherwise go about their visits to the French Laundry or whatever to the maximum extent they think they can get away with it. But he's got no money to do anything, the business community is constantly getting in his face about restrictions, a lot of the lower-level law enforcement officials (as in, loving most of them) will tell him to go gently caress himself on enforcement of restrictions, and he knows most of the levers he has direct access to as the state executive have immediate, disastrous consequences to the people he's trying to help and he does not have levers/money available to remediate them. So actually doing something meaningful means the federal government gets off its rear end or the state legislature appropriates money, which they are heavily incentivized not to do because it'll blow a hole in the state budget and there are no guarantees that even a future Biden admin (with a Republican or Manchin-poisoned Senate) will fill in later. If he takes the slate of actions that are theoretically available to him unilaterally (like declaring an emergency, mobilizing the guard to enforce lockdowns, that kind of thing) I think it's entirely possible that major parts of the government apparatus would seize up and refuse to do it and that there's even an outside possibility you'd end up with crazy poo poo Guard units getting into fights (possibly even gunfights) with noncompliant chuds. It's a Gordian Knot-type problem and I think it's representative of how ineffectual and shrunken our real civic capabilities have become even as our spending on authoritarian paramilitaries has skyrocketed. We couldn't even get vulnerable asthmatic elders off the street for seven loving days when it was so smoky out they were at risk of death. All that required was a couple of hotel rooms that city and state government wouldn't provide and there are endless procedural, budgetary, and legal reasons why all our government can do for us these days is nothing. That said though I don't give Inslee a pass on this because he could be exercising the powers he has more than he is and is choosing not to even try because he's risk-averse like all politicians are these days, doesn't want to even skate the possibility of the scenarios I talked about above occurring, and that risk aversion is coming at the expense of lives right now. If we're going to have an authoritarian executive, we ought to be wringing him out like a loving dish-rag to try to protect people, not making excuses on his behalf for inaction.
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Nov 25, 2020 09:14
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For me, I'd close indoor dining and send health officials into private places secret shopping and people who didn't follow compliance measures just like with Weights and Measures would be liable for it. Fines would be based on % of profit per day per violation. Enforcement pays for itself if you catch even one violation at a major retailor and any small one that day's work. You're not dependent on the sheriff's complying. Things would change real quick.
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Nov 25, 2020 23:41
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Oregon reopening the bars (outside only). That didn’t last long. https://www.opb.org/article/2020/11/25/coronavirus-oregon-governor-kate-brown-covid-19-announcements/
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Nov 26, 2020 00:01
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Oregon reopening the bars (outside only). That didn’t last long. https://www.opb.org/article/2020/11/25/coronavirus-oregon-governor-kate-brown-covid-19-announcements/ COVID is under age so it can't get into bars. Smart move by big brained politicians to simply card the virus and turn it away at the door. Why even loving bother? You're like three steps removed from, "Open Everything, survival of the fittest, idiots." Kate Brown has dropped the ball every time she's had to make a hard decision around COVID. I guess you can afford to limp dick policy when your opposition is filled with raving lunatics who want to gently caress an obese septuagenarian.
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Nov 26, 2020 06:26
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Oregon reopening the bars (outside only). That didn’t last long. https://www.opb.org/article/2020/11/25/coronavirus-oregon-governor-kate-brown-covid-19-announcements/ We will see, but it may be a non-factor, I am sure there will be a some cases but it is going to be just above freezing at night soon and I doubt there will be a wave of people coming out. If anything I think a lot of places have a dilemma if they don't have a bunch of heating lamps. Btw, how much price inflation have people noticed at restaurants? I have been cooking at home across the pandemic, but occasionally I check on prices and they quite literally seem 20-30% above what they were before the pandemic and that is after a giant spike from 2015. A bar in Sellwood had a standard burger around $13 bucks (this isn't a upscale place either), $1.5 for add-ons, and fish and chips was $16. How are people going to afford those prices after the pandemic? On one hand I get restaurants have a lot of pressure on them, but there is only so far you can push customers.
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Nov 26, 2020 06:35
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Ardennes posted:We will see, but it may be a non-factor, I am sure there will be a some cases but it is going to be just above freezing at night soon and I doubt there will be a wave of people coming out. If anything I think a lot of places have a dilemma if they don't have a bunch of heating lamps. A few restaurants I get takeout from have shut down entirely at least through the new year, they say they've decided they can't make it work on outdoor and takeout and are just closing. If February 2021 ends up being the worst month of all for COVID deaths (as has been predicted and wouldn't be surprised if it's true) I imagine many of them might never open back up.
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Nov 26, 2020 06:56
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RuanGacho posted:For me, I'd close indoor dining and send health officials into private places secret shopping and people who didn't follow compliance measures just like with Weights and Measures would be liable for it. Fines would be based on % of profit per day per violation. Enforcement pays for itself if you catch even one violation at a major retailor and any small one that day's work. You're not dependent on the sheriff's complying. I've been walking around downtown Seattle on the regular and about a third of the restaurants have simply opened giant fully enclosed "outdoor dining" spaces in festival tent setups.
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Nov 26, 2020 08:16
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Ardennes posted:We will see, but it may be a non-factor, I am sure there will be a some cases but it is going to be just above freezing at night soon and I doubt there will be a wave of people coming out. If anything I think a lot of places have a dilemma if they don't have a bunch of heating lamps. I haven't really noticed because Seattle is already loving expensive to eat at.
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Nov 26, 2020 16:19
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Yeah eating out here is way more expensive than the rest of the country. But I’m okay with many of the reasons for that and the rest can’t really be changed.
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Nov 26, 2020 17:26
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