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Taear posted:But why would the Orion Syndicate suddenly grow so much rather than anyone else? I feel like the "what happened after everything collapsed" part is pretty loving important and nobody's asked it. Even moreso if the Romulans and etc are part of the Federation/were part of it before the Burn. And aren't Orion/Andor quite far away from each other as well? I know there's not really official maps, but still. There's enough dots to connect though; It's been 120-odd years and the Orion Syndicate were everywhere even in the TNG/DS9 era. They don't even need to necessarily start off with ships, just take advantage of the chaos and the fact Starfleet is functionally gone to consolidate power on a bunch of worlds and grow into a major power over years or decades. The Orion and Andorian groups probably started as separate syndicates and united into a single organization at some point as part of that. Even the name "Emerald Chain" infers they're all smaller parts joining together.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:40
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skasion posted:Emerald Chain is a dilithium cartel which makes them a pretty big threat to any warp based power, maybe they can’t bring a gigantic fleet down on you all at once but if they decide to embargo you then what can you do? Hope someone else will sell to you I guess. Yea, but the mines and such were mostly in the territories of the big empires. We've even had that really shoddily covered in season 1 when they had to spore drive to that unguarded dilithium mine on the borders of Federation space. I guess the shows never made it feel like it was a particularly rare item. Now so much of it doesn't work/has exploded why are the orions and andorians the ones who seem to have control over selling it? Why is selling it even a thing, I dunno.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:40
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Taear posted:Yea, but the mines and such were mostly in the territories of the big empires. We've even had that really shoddily covered in season 1 when they had to spore drive to that unguarded dilithium mine on the borders of Federation space. The Big Empires are gone. The big dangerous warbirds and Starfleet ships that would guard those mines are gone. Whatever intact ships were left at the time of The Burn likely would've been weeks or months away, with far bigger problems. The mines themselves were either intact and plundered, or just obliterated with everything else. Either way, they're long gone and the Orions and Andorians were presumably in the right place at the right time to profit. Taear posted:Why is selling it even a thing, I dunno. Because what was common is now a rare commodity.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:45
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Well RIP Coridan, that planet was loaded with dilithium so it's probably gone
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Nov 26, 2020 03:52
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The Big Empires are gone. The big dangerous warbirds and Starfleet ships that would guard those mines are gone. Whatever intact ships were left at the time of The Burn likely would've been weeks or months away, with far bigger problems. The mines themselves were either intact and plundered, or just obliterated with everything else. Either way, they're long gone and the Orions and Andorians were presumably in the right place at the right time to profit. I don't think that's a suitable explanation. The people who live in Empires don't just suddenly vanish, they're on these worlds where these things are. Just look at the guy from episode 1! The way they've portrayed the fall of the Fed is quite similar to the Roman empire (in that remnants survive that want to re-create it) and I just don't see why the ships blowing up suddenly means "Yea the orions now control all the dilithium". Don't get me wrong, they could explain it I guess but it doesn't look like they're going to. FlamingLiberal posted:Well RIP Coridan, that planet was loaded with dilithium so it's probably gone Wait I thought they didn't explode?
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Nov 26, 2020 03:52
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Oh yeah I forgot that they retconned that whole deal. Never mind.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:55
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Taear posted:I don't think that's a suitable explanation. The people who live in Empires don't just suddenly vanish, they're on these worlds where these things are. Just look at the guy from episode 1! The way they've portrayed the fall of the Fed is quite similar to the Roman empire (in that remnants survive that want to re-create it) and I just don't see why the ships blowing up suddenly means "Yea the orions now control all the dilithium". I don't think you understand logistics very well; Warp travel and subspace relays are what make an empire whole, and with both of those gone instantly all you have is a bunch of very disconnected worlds that are now months, if not years, of spaceflight apart. And those mines are in remote places to begin with. Every single one of those worlds, stations (if they're intact) and little colony settlements are just individual targets ripe for picking by literally anyone who still has warp travel and a gun, and the Emerald Chain is presumably an amalgamation of dozens of little fiefdoms over the past century or so.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:58
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Taear posted:Someone compared it to Doctor Who a bit downthread and I kinda agree with that. Modern Who doesn't really give a poo poo about how stuff works it's just interested in telling a story around the doctor and I feel like Discovery is still in that realm right now.
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Nov 26, 2020 04:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I don't think you understand logistics very well; Warp travel and subspace relays are what make an empire whole, and with both of those gone instantly all you have is a bunch of very disconnected worlds that are now months, if not years, of spaceflight apart. And those mines are in remote places to begin with. Every single one of those worlds, stations (if they're intact) and little colony settlements are just individual targets ripe for picking by literally anyone who still has warp travel and a gun, and the Emerald Chain is presumably an amalgamation of dozens of little fiefdoms over the past century or so. Yes and all this applies to the Orion Syndicate as well. Why are they the ones who seem to be able to cover vast distances and nobody else does? The Fed seems still pretty centralised and controlled with a bunch of ships, where's their dilithium source? If the Fed had fallen apart because of war then I'd be okay with this sorta find/replace they've done but as far as what we've been told it didn't, places just up and left. Crime Syndicates taking over suddenly instead of new states/polities isn't how stuff usually works! You can't run a galaxy spanning empire (which presumably the emerald chain is?) by being straight up criminals and nothing else. If they'd only had power back where we started season 3 off (which as we've seen seems to be pretty far away, although Book still has contacts where we've travelled to now?) I'd have been fine with that. But clearly they're huge and powerful if they're here and also where we started which is AT LEAST 600 light years away (based on the scanning range given in episode 1) sticklefifer posted:I've felt like there's a lot more parallels to BSG, especially in the first season. FTL jumps instead of warp, a border dispute sparking a war after a long armistice, weird prophecies, duplicate infiltrators masquerading as crew, and of course Rekha Sharma guest starring. A little bit of Fringe too, with the focus on the parallel universe and never quite going back to a status quo with a new concept or setting each season. BSG has a defined setting though, I more mean the way the stories are framed than the actual mechanics of getting around.
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Nov 26, 2020 04:05
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Taear posted:Yes and all this applies to the Orion Syndicate as well. Why are they the ones who seem to be able to cover vast distances and nobody else does? The Fed seems still pretty centralised and controlled with a bunch of ships, where's their dilithium source? The Federation is centralized, but they're also down to 30-odd worlds and a handful of ships that take months to get anywhere. That little hidden base and the ships there is it for Starfleet in the 32nd Century. And the key word there is hidden base, because they likely don't have the firepower to defend against an openly-hostile threat in force anymore. The Emerald Chain is a likely collection of disparate organizations each centralized on their own worlds and presumably paying tribute up the command chain. They're also not just straight-up criminals, they're trading with Couriers and the like in salvage and dilithium for a profit. It's not crime when you're the new ruling power.
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Nov 26, 2020 04:10
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Emerald Chain also aren't some long standing dominant power, Admiral Vance spoke of them as if their flexing of their influence was a recent turn of events.
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Nov 26, 2020 04:13
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Taear posted:Yes and all this applies to the Orion Syndicate as well. Why are they the ones who seem to be able to cover vast distances and nobody else does? The Fed seems still pretty centralised and controlled with a bunch of ships, where's their dilithium source? Why would you assume this?
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Nov 26, 2020 04:18
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MikeJF posted:The whole thing doesn't spin, it's just a plate on the top and bottom that rotates. Well that would have been nice to know before I made the purchase. I kind of wound up rushing after the mirror Enterprise-D went out of stock. Plus it was a one-day sale. drat that infernal FOMO! Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 09:10
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Yvonmukluk posted:Well that would have been nice to know before I made the purchase. I don't know if they officially said they were, but if I recall they were heavily hinting on twitter they would.
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Nov 26, 2020 09:36
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MikeJF posted:I don't know if they officially said they were, but if I recall they were heavily hinting on twitter they would. The dude who runs the Star Trek Eaglemoss line got flooded with requests to do an XL Titan release with the Lower Decks colouring, and he went “well we weren’t planning on it, but maaaaaaybe...”
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Nov 26, 2020 09:54
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If we're getting lower decks ships, I want a Vancouver. And a Cerritos, obviously. They could resissue it as the Merced & Solvang, too (the Solvang's colour scheme was pretty dope). Also I just looked on the Eaglemoss site and it looks like the mirror Enterprise-D is back?
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Nov 26, 2020 10:37
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 Art of Discovery. Looks like they had to figure out a way to explain the weird turbolift shots and just ended up putting a giant empty space stretching up the middle of the ship called the 'systems hub'.
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Nov 26, 2020 10:38
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With the exception of the Saru and Tilly b-plots, I think I hated that episode. - I’ve defended Michael in the past but this particular bit of messianic importance really felt like a bridge too far. And the episode itself lampshading this fact did not help matters. It sucks to even admit it, but at this point the show’s lead character is clearly it’s weakest aspect and I don’t see a way to fix it unless they either stop making Michael the only person in the universe who can solve any problem or turn the show into a proper ensemble like past Treks. I like Sonequa, I think the character has had mountains of squandered potential due to writing, but man something in that writer’s room needs to be fixed. - Doug Jones hinted at a love interest for Saru this season and I’m guessing the - Unification! It feels weirdly cool to have an established character’s dream become reality. - I dig how even the full Vulcans are clearly more emotional now and the Romulans are more reserved. - Ni’Var is a weird name because in the context of Trek it just makes me think of Negh’Var, the big-rear end Klingon ships from DS9. - Pretty sure Tilly mentioned a USS Yelchin, which is presumably a nice tribute to Anton Yelchin. - I guess Michael’s mom is going to be a recurring character now? Sure, whatever  - Having an Ensign be your acting CO is weird, but I guess that’s the solution to the “what exactly is Tilly’s job anyway?” question. And you know what? I’m cool with it, Tilly has grown a lot and she’s been good this season thus far. - Disco-A’s nacelles reattach when it spore jumps. Boooooooooooooo
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Nov 26, 2020 10:39
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Tilly is proof that at no point did the writers/producers bother to set out a show bible that explains things like 'what is this character's job' and 'what do they do when they aren't on screen?'
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Nov 26, 2020 11:01
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skasion posted:It’s not like there was always a big faction of non-dilithium-using guys. There’s already fanwank explanation for how Romulans could have been relatively unaffected to it because they don’t have matter-antimatter warp cores or whatever, who knows if they will use that in the show. It's not like romulans were throwing dilithium into singularities on board their ships. But yes, this all is either retconned now or... 
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Nov 26, 2020 11:05
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Erulisse posted:It's not like romulans were throwing dilithium into singularities on board their ships. But yes, this all is either retconned now or... there’s a small handful of past references to romulans using dilithium for ~something~ I think to where you could probably handwave it this episode was just ok; I was fine with the plot resolution and i dug the world-building, just the fact that there’s a contractual obligation for discovery to not be an ensemble show when star trek really really wants to be an ensemble show is getting incredibly awkward was nice to see leonard nimoy in the unification 2 conclusion again; that was such a nice scene Crusader fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 11:13
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Crusader posted:there’s a handful of references to romulans using dilithium I think to where you could probably handwave it What's worse is episode 2 of this season even shows that the rest of the cast are perfectly capable of carrying an episode as an ensemble cast without Michael around. At least until she has to arbitrarily show up and Save Discovery at the last second rather than the writers letting the crew work band together to solve their own problem in true Star Trek tradition.
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Nov 26, 2020 11:17
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Was that the first episode of Discovery with nary a single punch? No phasers, no brandishing weapons, the closest thing to aggression was some people standing up sternly. I don't think the episode was top tier or anything but it's good to see Discovery is capable of shedding some of its worst habits. Not all of them, of course. They still got lots of crying in there. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 11:18
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Alchenar posted:Tilly is proof that at no point did the writers/producers bother to set out a show bible that explains things like 'what is this character's job' and 'what do they do when they aren't on screen?' Given the upheavals behind-the-scenes, that might explain why there's no show bible. I really want to see Lower Decks' show bible.
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Nov 26, 2020 11:55
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also solid choice on the name Ni’Var - i didn't even remember how far back that term goes off the top of my head
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Nov 26, 2020 13:20
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Why would you assume this? Because they're on the planet Burnham arrives on but also pushing against the nu-Fed where we are now.
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Nov 26, 2020 13:46
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That...wasn't enjoyable for the most part, which sucks because I liked elements of it and really wanted to.
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Nov 26, 2020 14:10
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Man! Usual rambling while watching/right after fresh ep: Vulcans would not leave federation, furthermore for such cause. Did they lose their logic? Like, what the actual gently caress. My heart warmed to see Leonard Nimoy again. The scene, the memories...All shat over with such a lame execution of unification pt3. Original Unification truly united TOS and TNG, but not with Nimoy's appearance but in spirit too, which TNG surely did not lack unlike discovery does. After that 'I believe he would find it all...fascinating' WHY YOU DOING THIS DISCOVERY YOU DONT DESERVE THIS WORD rolls away crying Burnham calls for some scientific ritual or something, like there are no other vulcans on ship. After all, its ST: Burnham show. Mary Sue anyone? At least they tied elven-training battle nuns from Picard into universe. Hey, that's continuity! As they say in the country of the blind one-eyed man is a king. And that backfired in same loving scene. OF COURSE IT WAS HER MOM. GOD DAMNIT WRITERS! (If they made that michaels mom caused the burn so her notoriously nosy and omnipotent daughter finds her I'll quit watching, seriously what the hell stop it). At least Saru shows he has sense and character development and is willing to interact with President meaningfully for the greater cause. Federation, dilithium shortage, good bits. Anthony Rapp's face tho! That scene with Tilly started very cool but ended abruptly. Hey this could been better! Forum quorum scene got tense pretty fast. This was a nice change of pace. Heh Burnham didn't expect that from her mom. mommy y u no save daughters rear end like erryone else doessss hhhnnnnggggg. Well, st:burnham does not disappoint and it falls together 'nicely'. Mass psychology session ends in burnham's instant 180 turn and ritual call-off. If she hopes that her sincerity will make vulcan believe her and just send data, this sucks and lazy lovely writing as it has always been. If she is totally honest to her word, this is cool, this is some character growth for burnham. Finally? Lets see how it play out. Aaaand of course its lazy writing! Lmao kindergarten kids are more thought through than this lazy TV trope. Here, have your data dear. Also yeah SPOCK that we praise almost like Surak was totally because you made him great. Yeah cool. Engineering scene made me smile. So humane, so nice. But, as usual on st:burnham, we never saw non-plot related character development that could have lead to this scene. "We know you and we will follow you anywhere" Wait what Stametz you just got over the fact that she offered you her idea to even take your precious time and think about it! How in hell you know her and will follow her anywhere? Do writers compare themselves to michael "burnham" sue, leading us to the fact that we would have to just believe their words? Wait, are the writers saying that they are mary sue's that are totally should not be there but somehow magically lucked into that position? I totally believe that! They should not be in any writing room, they should be fired and live in a carton box in some desert lamenting their crappy decisions. Ofc Book stays with her regardless of anything that was said and done before. Meh. Also he occupies valuable shuttle space! At least this episode they vaporised exactly zero people. That's a change! Rating: They shat all over Nimoy's (and overall Trek's) legacy with one episode. AIN'T THAT A GREAT ACHIEVEMENT? That's only loving thing they could have achieved. loving great. ps lmao at book interacting with mycelial network. New navigator so he can be inserted into ship crew? Holy loving mycelial network of stametzgrade. Erulisse fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 15:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:They're still the Federation, and given what's presumably capable with modern tech the ship is entirely self-sustaining. It just has to sit somewhere quietly indefinitely and act as an ongoing interplanetary vault. The admiral said the ship was 'still around' after Michael mentioned it though, so presumably it has been flying around for a thousand years (and somehow did not explode in the Burn). It makes no sense that it would just be flying around somewhere all alone, even if they upgraded that ship to be self-sustainable during those 1000 years. Shouldn't think about it too hard I guess!
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Nov 26, 2020 15:57
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It's got a -M on the registry so I assumed they just transplanted the vault into a next generation hull every century or so. It's probably been the M since before the burn though. It spends shifts under the care of different Federation members. Given how tiny it is, it might even just be towed to a different Federation system once every few decades. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 16:01
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I'm glad it seems like most folks posting in here seem to actually enjoy the three new series. I get so annoyed reading some of the one star reviews. I won't waste y'all's time getting into all that, though. Finally caught up to season 3 of Disco. Season 2 finale was so good, I loved how everything came together as it did. Sometimes the dialogue is a little shaky, but I just cannot agree with the people who say the series is written poorly. Also, shooting in Iceland always seems to be a beautiful choice, IMO. I am early in s3e1, and it's gorgeous as always.
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Nov 26, 2020 17:02
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On the whole I liked the episode more than I hated it. Sure there was wasted potential and poor writing and bad acting but this is Star Trek Discovery so I dunno what people were expecting. I enjoyed that the Romulans were the most pro Federation and were the most willing to assist with the research. I liked the continued struggles for unification and I felt there was an interesting take on the Vulcans where they obviously had a lot of Vulcan characteristics still but had softened somewhat. The break between the Federation and the Ni'Var also rang true to me and I think "wounded ex federation member" is why I enjoyed this episode. There was a great setup here for a longer path to get the data and build trust with the Ni'Var over time, and my biggest issue with the episode is that the writers decided to skip that for a smash and grab at the end of the episode. The overall theme of healing the Federation is one that resonates with me, but I fear we're a few episodes away from Michael discovering the One Weird Trick that erases this universe from the timeline forever. The smash and grab for the data doesn't fill me with confidence. Having the trial or whatever revolve around Truth more than Logic was ok, and I thought it played well with the theme of Romulans and Vulcans using truth to continue their quest for union, but the whole thing was overshadowed by "only Michael can save the day". The real casualty of Michael always needing to be the savior is that an episode like this just doesn't have the impact it should. In an ensemble cast with a strong group of characters I feel this would be a good Michael episode and would open the door to more Ni'Var episodes in the future, but since it's Michael Michael Michael 110% of the time this episode doesn't really have room to breathe. I like the character and I like the actress but TNG would be dumb if only Data could solve problems every week. I did groan when Michael's mother was revealed. Having her be the person that could get Michael to speak Truth worked out okay, but once again the whole thing is drowned out by everything always being about Michael. The Tilly stuff was awkward for me. She's unready to be the person to order the crew to their deaths if needed. They should have promoted her to lieutenant and made her a department head or project lead and have episodes where she grows, but instead they went for the smash and grab. This was also another missed opportunity to do something with the rest of the bridge crew. Lots of tears in this episode. This is another example of something that would be good but it's lost because it happens all the time. Overall I think this season is strongest when it plays to rebuilding the federation and this episode did a decent job at that. There was a lot of potential to build bridges to future Ni'Var episodes but almost none of that potential was grabbed, which makes me fear we'll be saying goodbye to this universe in a few episodes.
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Nov 26, 2020 17:14
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I enjoyed it.
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Nov 26, 2020 17:23
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Crusader posted:also solid choice on the name Ni’Var - i didn't even remember how far back that term goes off the top of my head 60's. It was created as part of a Vulcan conlang for a fanzine in 1969, I think. Dorothy Jones Heydt, who created it, defined it as "Two contrasting things joined into a single whole", so it fits for the name of the planet.
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Nov 26, 2020 17:42
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Thom12255 posted:I enjoyed it. Same! I saw some of the more non-spoiler-y negative impressions in this thread before I watched it (which may have lowered expectations a bit) but halfway in I literally said to myself "oh it's a Michael episode, that's why" I made my peace long ago with Michael being the main character of the show, and Sonequa plays her well, so
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Nov 26, 2020 18:02
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I thought it was pretty arrogant of the writers to off-handedly credit Michael, a character that didn't exist as a concept during 99% of Spock's existence, for Spock's "best qualities". Other than that, I agree with whoever said that there was a good concept here that could've been fleshed out over the season, with the Burn's location and Ni'Var's return to the Federation being the payoff. dpkg chopra fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 18:05
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Terra-da-loo! posted:I'm glad it seems like most folks posting in here seem to actually enjoy the three new series. I get so annoyed reading some of the one star reviews. I won't waste y'all's time getting into all that, though. Are you...reading a different thread? The vast consensus is 1/2 are pretty bad and 3 is getting better. The series is written poorly because they don't think out the plot beats. And the mashing together of 2/3 different ideas in season 1 and 2 because of the changes in showrunners. Normally netflix seems to update at the same time as it's on in the US but we're still on episode 6 it looks like.
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Nov 26, 2020 18:14
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I'm dreading the moment where Michael works out that in order to roll back the burn via time travel, Book and those she's grown to know and love will be wiped from existence. It will be a Needs of The Many moment and I'll scream internally.
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Nov 26, 2020 18:20
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Kima talking poo poo about Michael is the only redeeming part of this episode.
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Nov 26, 2020 18:59
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Taear posted:Are you...reading a different thread? The vast consensus is 1/2 are pretty bad and 3 is getting better. They meant Disco, Picard and Lower Decks. And are still wrong because of what you said on Disco, Picard is obviously terrible, and Lower Decks yeah they could be better but I had fun watching it while wishing it could be better.
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Nov 26, 2020 19:40
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