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Tsilkani posted:It's like when someone says 'All men are trash.' If you have to stop and argue with them about it, yes, you are who they're talking about. The rest of us just move on with our lives.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:57
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Tsilkani posted:Yeah, the only reason it's about him now because he was dumb enough to open his mouth in the first place, and now people across Twitter are taking note of his name to tell each other to steer clear of him and projects he's attached to, because he's being a complete rear end about this. He's not going to end up at some brilliant piece of logic that's going to make everyone side with him, he's just running his name, and by extension the name of everyone who works with him, through the mud. The chart is significantly more than an offhand joke, comment, or venting. It's not a piece of art, nor is it a message shared among marginalized peoples for camaraderie. It is specifically asserting itself as the singular and important guide to including people of colour in your streaming. It is directly targeted to Justin Alexander and others, and it comes in a larger context of significant conflict over the equitable participation and involvement of people of colour in RPG streaming. All of this is happening on the most significant platform for promoting and discussing RPG streaming. I'm not sure where that's getting lost. This chart isn't without context. It is an unequivocable, authoritative statement, an assertion of power and authority without any room for criticism, in a very heated argument that has been going on for months. (And we've talked about it plenty already in this thread, with the stuff about Chris Spivey's Haunted West streams.) So yes, as someone who is actually trying to participate equitably in RPG streaming, Justin Alexander is right to respond. He admits it even has some good points about leadership and ownership! But the whole chart, and its construction, and its language, forbids him from taking actually equitable actions. And THAT is what he's calling out. He's not being a racist, he's not whining about reverse racism, he's saying: "hey, you won't even let me TRY to do what's right."
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Nov 28, 2020 03:58
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Arivia posted:
Wtf? are you arguing that a PoC taking advantage of one of the few anti harrasment tools on twitter means they are attacking someone? Because if not, you really need to take a step backwards and really change how you write your posts.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:58
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Hel posted:Wtf? are you arguing that a PoC taking advantage of one of the few anti harrasment tools on twitter means they are attacking someone? Because if not, you really need to take a step backwards and really change how you write your posts. Yes, if you're challenging people with a badly written tweet directed squarely at them and aren't allowing any responses then yes, that's an attack and it's very clearly one. I'm saying this as someone who's received a significant amount of abuse on Twitter for years on the basis of her marginalized identities; the original post is specifically attacking and calling out streaming groups and that is a big part of why it's poorly done.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:00
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Having Arivia on your ignore list and knowing her history of Redtext AVs would save a lot of people a lot of time right now
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Nov 28, 2020 04:01
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Do not touch the poop. Y'all know this.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:03
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Froghammer posted:Having Arivia on your ignore list and knowing her history of Redtext AVs would save a lot of people a lot of time right now womp womp nothing to actually disagree with, not willing to inform yourself about or critically respond to the issue, so you're just making personal attacks because you're lazy
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Nov 28, 2020 04:04
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Arivia posted:I'm saying this as someone who's received a significant amount of abuse on Twitter for years on the basis of her marginalized identities It's almost like this is why some people turn off replies?
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Nov 28, 2020 04:06
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Arivia posted:Stuff I'm replying to. What in gods name, there are all white tabletop podcasts that spring up daily. No one is going to give much of a poo poo about you not following some flow chart from some random twitter user. Treat that thing like you treat all advice online see how much of it applies to you. Take it into consideration as things to think about. Most if that flow chart is useful stuff to think about if you are someone hiring to see if the environment and table are safe places to play. Some of it is a bit much and it's far too online but a number of them are considerations and at the very least something to bring up when talking to someone about joining your show. Even if you can't execute on the specific things that flow chart says you should do. Think about why a PoC might you know care about specific things that are on that list and try to address it. Also being willfully obtuse, you don't need to create a chat platform homie, discord works. Willfully obtuse is the entirety of what dthat dude has been doing trying to defend himself from other PoC designers and people in this space. But anyway. https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1332426129358073863 https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1150750185322102787 If stuff like this is this dudes reactions to people criticizing a lack of diversity in spaces and you want to cape up then god speed you you Arivia. You win congrats, I'm out.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:09
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's almost like this is why some people turn off replies? Absolutely - but you can't be doing that when you're making a public post to criticize others and advocate for change, or it becomes a one-sided attack. So the chart is one (and she did tag #ttrpg, which is one of the big tags for all this drama and which is why I know so much about it, since I made the mistake of following it and Twitter just shows me endless fighting all day long.) It can't be a discussion. It can't be a learning experience. It's an edict, and the original poster made all the choices to create it as one.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:09
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Dude saw something on the internet that broadly criticized a group he identified with. Then proceeded to signal boost that criticism as an attack on him personally. Dude wasn't being attacked (Hell the creator had a reply *to* the chart saying that it wasn't an attack but a call to do better. If you are literally a single person podcast you can't do any better than you already are) but what he did do was obliquely an attack on POCs and basically that Bors "I hate that you're making me do this racism" comic.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:12
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Arivia posted:Absolutely - but you can't be doing that when you're making a public post to criticize others and advocate for change, or it becomes a one-sided attack. So the chart is one (and she did tag #ttrpg, which is one of the big tags for all this drama and which is why I know so much about it, since I made the mistake of following it and Twitter just shows me endless fighting all day long.) But I thought this was a personal attack on him because he likes 4e and the tabletop cops (PoCs?) Are trying to take him down a peg. Dude just walked into a field of rakes and proceeded to step on every one.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:15
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Maybe he should've laid out his very logical concerns in a more conversational approach towards the chart's author, instead of QRTing her with "look here's yer problem" and then capping it off by tearing his shirt yelling "No, I won't incorporate a whites only club, you can't make me!" It's that aggrieved and aggressive personalization that makes it white fragility, aka a kind of racism. If we need to be so concerned about the performative nature of Twitter (good loving luck, btw, Ms Sisyphus), how about we also look askance at what Alexander was performing with his thread in the first place? Regardless if he's in the right or wrong, tangentially, if Alexander's going to put on some Multimedia Brand Manager pants he should know better than to meet even mildly confrontational takes on legitimately controversial issues in kind*. * No, an aggressively POC-centered flowchart and a "do better" tweet are not where you draw equivalency to someone starting a Hitler Youth chapter, even if we all get in the weeds about what constitutes an attack in the endless morass of Twitter discourse. EDIT: lol hello weeds Arivia posted:Absolutely - but you can't be doing that when you're making a public post to criticize others and advocate for change, or it becomes a one-sided attack. So the chart is one (and she did tag #ttrpg, which is one of the big tags for all this drama and which is why I know so much about it, since I made the mistake of following it and Twitter just shows me endless fighting all day long.) Oof, gently caress no. Where did all that concern for nuance go?
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Nov 28, 2020 04:16
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Dexo posted:What in gods name, there are all white tabletop podcasts that spring up daily. No one is going to give much of a poo poo about you not following some flow chart from some random twitter user. Yeah, sane people will take it partially under consideration and think it through. Sadly, Twitter doesn't work that way and Twitter is the main socializing and promotion platform for RPG streaming as I have repeatedly pointed out. Again, not sure how or why people are ignoring this. This is a current issue in Alexander's hobby and work, and he's right to respond to the attack on a medium that's quite important to that hobby and that work. That first comment is a response to hunniebunz uncritical, hyperbolic responses to Alexander's original tweets, and he's responding to her to reiterate his point that he's looking to do better than the chart is "allowing" him to do as a white creator. He's not saying anything wrong or incorrect, he's clearly and correctly saying that he would be racist if he refused to hire people of colour, and that he will not engage in racist hiring practices. The second tweet is from a year and a half earlier and not about the same issue at all, so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:16
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Kurieg posted:Dude saw something on the internet that broadly criticized a group he identified with. Then proceeded to signal boost that criticism as an attack on him personally. Dude wasn't being attacked (Hell the creator had a reply *to* the chart saying that it wasn't an attack but a call to do better. If you are literally a single person podcast you can't do any better than you already are) but what he did do was obliquely an attack on POCs and basically that Bors "I hate that you're making me do this racism" comic. I already pointed out that comparing this to the Matt Bors comic is incorrect, please read the thread before shitposting https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3849301&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=560#post510290465 That Old Tree posted:Maybe he should've laid out his very logical concerns in a more conversational approach towards the chart's author, instead of QRTing her with "look here's yer problem" and then capping it off by tearing his shirt yelling "No, I won't incorporate a whites only club, you can't make me!" It's that aggrieved and aggressive personalization that makes it white fragility, aka a kind of racism. If we need to be so concerned about the performative nature of Twitter (good loving luck, btw, Ms Sisyphus), how about we also look askance at what Alexander was performing with his thread in the first place? What other options do we have? She removed him of literally all options to respond to the tweet but quote tweeting it. Sure, yeah, it's not tactful, but he's not wrong to do so nor wrong in the substance nor style of his response. quote:Oof, gently caress no. Where did all that concern for nuance go? Nuance is great! which is why I'm pointing out the utter lack of nuance in the original lovely chart tweet that started this all off.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:20
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Arivia posted:
Because it establishes why I give him less benefit of the doubt when it comes to why he seemingly takes this so personally. When it wasn't aimed at him at loving all.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:20
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Dexo posted:Because it establishes why I give him less benefit of the doubt when it comes to why he seemingly takes this it so personally. When it wasn't aimed at him at loving all. What does "it" mean in this context? What wasn't aimed at him? Here's a helpful tip: if you go ahead and read the actual tweets you're quoting you may find out that they're about rhetoric and not about racism and that the replies bear that out!
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Nov 28, 2020 04:22
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Arivia posted:I already pointed out that comparing this to the Matt Bors comic is incorrect, please read the thread before shitposting "If I adhere to your chart slavishly I can only hold podcasts with my white friends." is basically the Bors comic, my friend. He's basically saying he totally *would* have had POCs on his podcast if it weren't for these absolutely onerous standards they're trying to hold him to. and for someone screaming about nuance you keep missing this. https://twitter.com/GlossandGadgets/status/1332042143297363976?s=20
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Nov 28, 2020 04:31
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"It's kind of a lovely chart if you're a robot person slavishly devoted to charts in order to determine acceptable behavior" is relatively small potatoes compared to the kind of issues the chart is raising
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Nov 28, 2020 04:32
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Arivia posted:What does "it" mean in this context? What wasn't aimed at him? Thanks Arivia for telling me, that I don't actually know the context of that post. As if that bullshit argument isn't stuff I deal with all the goddamn loving time As if fancy rhetorical arguments about diversity in spaces aren't loving always goddamn used to exclude us. As if a hiring manager or casting director or any other loving person in power can't always say "well I agree with what you are saying but just not the way you are saying it". Even well meaning people, or people I give/gave the benefit of the doubt say that poo poo and it's still bullshit all the loving way down. People complaining about a black girl being Ariel, and let's say asian people complaining about ScarJo playing an Asian women(I know they address it in the movie it's still bad) or any other number of injustices about casting trans and gay folks in movies might not be loving debate scholars in the exact correct way to debate to appease Mr. Smart and rational white man designer. So that lack of finesse with words is used against us as a bludgeon
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Nov 28, 2020 04:32
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justin alexandrian is a dumb piece of poo poo but he apparently knows how to get attention real easy
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Nov 28, 2020 04:32
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the sort of bottom line is the kind of rhetoric that dude uses is a tired grift that basically nobody is falling for. There are a million ways to critique a post like that, but he knew what kind of reaction he'd get when he posted that and so did everyone else here. the entire critique itself is founded on bad faith and the replies pretty clearly bear it out. The discussion he is "having" isn't even relevant, he doesn't care about this poo poo, it's just a virtue signal for his lovely fans or an attention grab for more lovely fans. the original post is being celebrated by voices of color in the scene, who it was designed for and by. If it's useful for that community or speaks to concerns they already have of safety then any amount of clumsy or off-the-cuff language use that isn't 1000% perfect to yours or justin the alexandrian alexander's personal sensibilities can be p easily forgiven and making a massive mountain out of it then being a massive arsehole when the obvious reaction comes...like it's just v obvious 2000s era troll poo poo frankly
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Nov 28, 2020 04:35
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Serf posted:justin alexandrian is a dumb piece of poo poo but he apparently knows how to get attention real easy The confidence of a mediocre white man bears fruit once more.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:39
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Kurieg posted:"If I adhere to your chart slavishly I can only hold podcasts with my white friends." is basically the Bors comic, my friend. He's basically saying he totally *would* have had POCs on his podcast if it weren't for these absolutely onerous standards they're trying to hold him to. have you forgotten the actual comic? where the activist asks for hurtful things to stop and the reactionary does intentionally inflammatory, hyperbolic things in response? it actually illustrates the problem here that you're continuing, that trying to respond with nuance and understanding is being taken by critics (here and on twitter) with hyperbolic bad-faith assumptions. And we're not friends, you're a dipshit when you're misreading things repeatedly and this badly. Fix up your own poo poo. yes, if she says it's not an attack then it's not an attack, that's definitely how social manipulation works, you're right! Dexo posted:Thanks Arivia for telling me, that I don't actually know the context of that post. As if that bullshit argument isn't stuff I deal with all the goddamn loving time If you can't be bothered to click through to twitter and read the surrounding tweets (like I did, just to make sure I was actually defending Alexander on a good footing before I made my original post), then it's only your own fault for being bludgeoned. You can't complain about a lack of nuance or finesse when you're not doing the minimum of the work to actually engage critically. That's your fault, and your failure. Froghammer posted:"It's kind of a lovely chart if you're a robot person slavishly devoted to charts in order to determine acceptable behavior" is relatively small potatoes compared to the kind of issues the chart is raising Unfortunately that's the state of conversation on Twitter. No one likes it, and poo poo like this keeps perpetuating it. Nemesis Of Moles posted:the sort of bottom line is the kind of rhetoric that dude uses is a tired grift that basically nobody is falling for. There are a million ways to critique a post like that, but he knew what kind of reaction he'd get when he posted that and so did everyone else here. the entire critique itself is founded on bad faith and the replies pretty clearly bear it out. The discussion he is "having" isn't even relevant, he doesn't care about this poo poo, it's just a virtue signal for his lovely fans or an attention grab for more lovely fans. Ah yes it is 2000s era troll poo poo when you ignore the written substantiative text of literally every piece of communication involved and replace it with your own reading with absolutely no grounding in what's actually being said. You're absolutely right: you're being an obvious 2000s era troll. Go you, except it's disappointing because I've seen your games and know you can do better. e: you're getting dismissive responses because you're all responding from uninformed bad faith positions. Shoo, you can all do better than this.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:44
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Lmao I did read It's why I loving responded like I did. Sorry your fav did something problematic, it'll be okay. He won't be cancelled as that doesn't actually exist except for folks in marginalized communities when they step on a few rakes. Dexo fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 04:46
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Yep, time to unbookmark this thread again and for the same reason I unbookmarked it last time.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:49
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Your framing of a black womans work here as an attack and aggressive loving sucks, even without touching the contortions you’re putting yourself in to defend white mediocrity in games.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:49
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Dexo posted:Lmao I did read it you loving dummy. Great, then you saw him agree that arguing for more roles for people of colour is not opposed to arguing against white people playing characters of colour, and making it even clearer that he's objecting to people not actually connecting and establishing a consistent foundation for those two arguments. He literally repeats himself that he's not arguing about race, but about lovely rhetorical treatment. What's your problem with that? Are you reading race into his responses? Because there's nothing racially coded there - there's no target group beyond Twitter users in general. Hell, it's reasonable as a criticism of uninformed badly written responses BY white people.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:50
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I'll make sure to include a paragraph or two on why taking disastrously bad faith critiques as serious attempts to engage in a dialogue and continued insults of marginalized groups is grounds for dismissal of rhetoric in my next book I guess
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Nov 28, 2020 04:50
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Slimnoid posted:The confidence of a mediocre white man bears fruit once more. its amazing how a guy who sucks turds can have a meltdown and we end up looking at walls of posts about it for hours. some real butterfly faps its wings and causes a hurricane on the other side of the planet poo poo e: its better this way Serf fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 04:51
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Mr. Maltose posted:Your framing of a black womans work here as an attack and aggressive loving sucks, even without touching the contortions you’re putting yourself in to defend white mediocrity in games. tough! when you're calling out an entire community like that, yes it's an attack. and it's one of the weaknesses of social media that uninformed off the cuff bullshit like that chart gets credence and needs to be responded to. "defending white mediocrity" would you like to support this statement or are you just going to continue with unsupported attacks on me because frankly I'm tired of mediocre white people myself like many of the criticisms in this discussion e: like really, your only argument in this post is "it's bad because you're criticizing a black woman." race nor gender is not a defense against criticism in and of itself, and you haven't provided anything else to substantiate that.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:52
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what "entire" community do you think the original post is "calling out"
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Nov 28, 2020 04:53
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:what community do you think the original post is "calling out" literally what it says, RPG streaming groups. I'm not going to diagram the sentences for you, and I already identified the hashtag, I know you're literate.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:54
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Arivia posted:What other options do we have? She removed him of literally all options to respond to the tweet but quote tweeting it. Sure, yeah, it's not tactful, but he's not wrong to do so nor wrong in the substance nor style of his response. The style is absolutely stupid and changeable. Here's an alternative in the form of an equivalency: I had some questions, years ago, about anti-cure autism, which I thought sounded loving stupid as all hell. I found someone who seemed knowledgeable but had some very strident anti-cure autism Tweets (yes, this was even on Twitter!), and the first thing I did was DM them saying "Hey, I think anti-cure autism seems bad, but I don't have personal experience and you obviously know what's up. Can I ask some questions, some of which might unintentionally come off as offensive, to better understand where you're coming from?" And they said "Yes" and they helped me to understand where they were coming from much better. Their perspective on the subject also helped me understand a lot of other things. What he did was basically tell-off someone who he should at least approach as a respectable peer, if not superior, if he's going to try to do the things he's flapping about streaming his diversity and inclusivity credentials. She's clearly got experience, and she's got an audience. Even if he comes away thinking she's nuttier than a Kroger snack aisle, he doesn't start the "conversation" by playing the poor, abused white industry man beset by needy marginals. He either knew he was stirring the pot, or he's stupid enough to not think that dunking on a prospective peer POC would stir the pot, so maybe he should hold off on being a social media butterfly. So, yes, even if the substance of his critique was unimpeachable (no), the style was dogshit. quote:Nuance is great! which is why I'm pointing out the utter lack of nuance in the original lovely chart tweet that started this all off. Alright good night. Fake edit: Arivia posted:e: you're getting dismissive responses because you're all responding from uninformed bad faith positions. Shoo, you can all do better than this. For someone who gets caught up on What's Really In Their Heart a lot (when it's someone you happen to like), you impugn the internal motives of people a lot in these kinds of conversations. Maybe if you really believe that you should stop wasting all this time here and leave again. Or, if you think I and others are worth talking to but legitimately misguided, cut that poo poo out. Serf posted:butterfly faps its wings Maybe I should get interested in lepidopterology. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 04:55
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I'm in the rpg streaming community, I'm friends with many in the community, the person who made the chart is a v big member of the community. No one on my feed thinks it's a call out or attack. Everyone in the community seems to like it.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:56
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That Old Tree posted:The style is absolutely stupid and changeable. Here's an alternative in the form of an equivalency: Again, she's blocked off all responses. He doesn't have the opportunity to DM her, or respond to her tweet. She has left Alexander with no other way to respond, and she intentionally does so, even with a flourish in her follow up tweet! And he doesn't need to understand because he's responding to a literal logical error in the chart. It's not "hey, why do you think POC-only chat rooms are important" it's "your chart logically leaves me with no ability to hire or partner with people of colour." There's no disagreement he's misunderstanding here, no misstatement of the facts - she's literally set up a chart that leaves only whites hiring whites as the only outcome in his situation. That's it. It's on her. She hosed it up THAT BADLY from the get go. So yes, he's right to respond as he did because the entire substance is logically, completely wrong from the get-go. And that's exactly what he does. He admits there are good ideas in there, but refuses the entire structure because it demands explicitly racist actions of him.
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Nov 28, 2020 04:59
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It’s bad because your criticism of this person has word choice often used to diminish and silence black and especially black female voices and has unfortunate racist connotations that I do not think you’re using purposefully but are still using! And for someone tired of white mediocrity you are carrying a vast amount of water for this dude who is white and honestly mediocre.
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Nov 28, 2020 05:00
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It's bold of the Alexandrian to reject the racist chart and just be racist all on his own in ways that the chart could never have accounted for
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Nov 28, 2020 05:01
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Arguing over which Twitter arguments have merit is a cool and fun thing to do with your time
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Nov 28, 2020 05:01
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https://twitter.com/bleongambetta/status/1332494274907279362 It's always loving done in service on making GBS threads on people who might not be able to create, or aren't trying to creating a fully coherent thesis in 240 characters. I'm loving sure and I know he says that it's fine to ask for more diversity and it doesn't mean saying white people shouldn't play people of color. (I'm not just saying white people either, they should get gay trans, and non binary actors to play roles too. There was drama in VA circles about that earlier this year) I don't think he is like an actual bad person or whatever just a self important white dude who can't help but center himself as a beacon of rationality(as if it's easy to be rational about being discriminated against) and rhetorical stylings. And I'm actually done this time. Dexo fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 05:01
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