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Bad Munki posted:Pretty sure it’s usually years. Like the better part of a decade. Or 20 years: https://khn.org/news/ghost-bill-uva-siphons-couples-tax-refund-to-pay-20-year-old-medical-debt/
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Dec 6, 2020 06:19
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azflyboy posted:Thanks everyone. The emergency room is not your doctor's office. Things cost more in the er. They have everything available at their finger tips. All of that apparatus costs money. So maybe you could have gotten the flu test at your doctor's office but could you have gotten a stat CT with contrast within twenty minutes? Well no. But guess who can? The emergency room can. So by visiting the emergency room you're paying for the access to this vast array of services you may not have used but were available to you should you have needed them. So yes the emergency room charges more than your doctor's office for the exact same services and they should.
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Dec 6, 2020 06:33
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Also vast insurance company profits, the huge administrative burden of medical billing, the way nobody can actually cross-shop costs when they need medical care so there's no price competition so it's not a free market at all, etc. etc. etc.
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Dec 6, 2020 08:10
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Doctor Party posted:The emergency room is not your doctor's office. Things cost more in the er. They have everything available at their finger tips. All of that apparatus costs money. So maybe you could have gotten the flu test at your doctor's office but could you have gotten a stat CT with contrast within twenty minutes? Well no. But guess who can? The emergency room can. So by visiting the emergency room you're paying for the access to this vast array of services you may not have used but were available to you should you have needed them. Unless you live in Norway. Then it costs the same (0$).
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Dec 6, 2020 08:27
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Nice piece of fish posted:Unless you live in Norway. Then it costs the same (0$). Ah, Norway, land of the free. https://youtube.com/watch?v=wu_HGhc8jy4
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Dec 6, 2020 09:19
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Lobsterpillar posted:Ah, Norway, land of the free. Eerily accurate. Still though, the US should have universal health care and that's no joking matter. Also, I do not appreciate the whiteface wig nor the dentist hate. Anti-nordicism is a serious problem as is anti-dentitism.
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Dec 6, 2020 09:52
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Doctor Party posted:The emergency room is not your doctor's office. Things cost more in the er. They have everything available at their finger tips. All of that apparatus costs money. So maybe you could have gotten the flu test at your doctor's office but could you have gotten a stat CT with contrast within twenty minutes? Well no. But guess who can? The emergency room can. So by visiting the emergency room you're paying for the access to this vast array of services you may not have used but were available to you should you have needed them. Are you seriously arguing, in 2020, on the internet, that US healthcare bills are not massively, massively more than they need to be? Or are you just assuming the problem azflyboy has that they charge more at all as opposed to charging an absurd amount?
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Dec 6, 2020 10:57
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Organza Quiz posted:Are you seriously arguing, in 2020, on the internet, that US healthcare bills are not massively, massively more than they need to be? Or are you just assuming the problem azflyboy has that they charge more at all as opposed to charging an absurd amount? Leaving aside the issues of the overall system, the actual bill submitted to the insurance company is basically monopoly money. What actually gets paid involves some huge complicated pre-negotiated contract.
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Dec 6, 2020 14:34
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Organza Quiz posted:Are you seriously arguing, in 2020, on the internet, that US healthcare bills are not massively, massively more than they need to be? Or are you just assuming the problem azflyboy has that they charge more at all as opposed to charging an absurd amount? I am arguing that currently in the real world health care in America costs a certain amount. You can accept that or move or choose not to utilize American health care. He understands the cost his doctors office charges and is astonished the er would charge more. That shouldn't be surprising. A facility dedicated to life saving intervention rather than routine care is more costly. I am not arguing American health care is right on. I am all for single payer. That being said America has a lot of problems that single payer will not simply solve. Obesity and diabetes in America will not magically reduce to numbers seen in other countries. Our society, life style, food options, types of employment, means of travel etc play a huge role in the way our health is. None of that will be fixed by single payer. So health care in America in some part costs more because we have more sick people. Of course if you remove for profit insurance, allow single payer to negotiate for drugs etc that will save money. But then you probably aren't seeing a real bill anyway it's all part of your taxes. Doctor Party fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 15:51
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“If you don’t want to pay American healthcare prices why don’t you as an alternative consider just laying down in the gutter and dying.”
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Dec 6, 2020 16:30
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Doctor Party posted:I am arguing that currently in the real world health care in America costs a certain amount. You can accept that or move or choose not to utilize American health care. Hello, yes, I'm calling because I think I'm sick, but it may be serious. Could you tell me how much a diagnostic EKG costs? Just the EKG in the emergency room, not any other services. Oh, you won't tell me? Well that makes it difficult to know what I'm about to put myself on the hook for. Guess I'll move to another country.
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Dec 6, 2020 17:20
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Doctor Party posted:I am arguing that currently in the real world health care in America costs a certain amount. You can accept that or move or choose not to utilize American health care. Gotten your eye prescription checked lately, doc? Cause that there is some myopic loving posting. Ahem. Legally speaking.
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Dec 6, 2020 17:26
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Hello judge, I would like to complain that the American health care system is unfair and therefore I shouldn’t have to pay the bill. What, you’re saying that the fundamental unfairness doesn’t affect the legal enforceability of the bill? That’s bullshit! Get your bailiffs off of me! Your flag has a fringe!
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Dec 6, 2020 17:30
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I screwed up and failed to move out of the country prior to getting in a car accident. None of the medical professionals that treated me after the accident explained to me that my only two options were "medical bankruptcy" or "death." Do I have any legal recourse here or since I am currently still alive is it sufficient proof that I chose the medical bankruptcy option?
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Dec 6, 2020 17:39
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Arcturas posted:Hello judge, I would like to complain that the American health care system is unfair and therefore I shouldn’t have to pay the bill. Hypothetically, if they billed you $10 billion for your EKG, is that debt enforceable? If no, then why? Hypothetically, if they waited 100 years to collect, is that debt enforceable? If no, then why? How does a lay person differentiate what they view as a late, unreasonably high bill from what the law considers a late, unreasonably high bill?
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Dec 6, 2020 17:55
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Devor posted:
By hiring a lawyer
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Dec 6, 2020 18:01
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euphronius posted:By hiring a lawyer
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Dec 6, 2020 18:06
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euphronius posted:By hiring a lawyer But the big question is, when you tell them to move to another country, is that legal advice?
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Dec 6, 2020 18:11
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Being upset American health care costs to much and admitting it is the reality of the situation are not mutually exclusive. Also my comment about emergency vs office is not specific to America. An emergency room visit literally costs more than a office visit. Whether you pay for it. Or the government subsidizes it or whatever. It's a more expensive encounter. In Norway or USA. That's like me saying it costs more to represent someone for a felony than a misdemeanor and someone replies not in Norway we have free legal services! OK yeah maybe to you but the particular thing still has a cost and the cost of one of them is higher than the other. Of course we need a better health care system not run by for profit corporations in America. But that alone will not reduce our costs to the same as other developed countries. We have a myriad of systemic problems and this is one of many.
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Dec 6, 2020 18:38
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Doctor Party posted:Being upset American health care costs to much and admitting it is the reality of the situation are not mutually exclusive. Wow, are you a medical doctor or someting because this is some Doctor Logic at work here (for the purposes of this discussion, assume Doctor Logic is bad). So yeah, firstly there is no misdemeanor/felony divide with us, it's all just crime as of 2018 (2005). And your gut instinct right there is correct, anyone accused (later indicted and charged) has the right to an attorney of their choice paid for by the state. In fact, you have a right to legal aid in most cases where the government wants to interfere with your life or your property, such as when CPS comes knocking, or someone wants to evict Grandma to build a highway. You see, fundamentally our approach to government is that it is the purpose of the state to provide the people living here with services and to address our problems, to the benefit of all. One of the effects of that is that a single purchaser or provider of goods and services can determine the price/cost for a service and finance that through taxes. For instance, the state can mandate a single sum paid for all legal aid work for people charged with a crime, or in a CPS case, or getting expropriated, or getting medically investigated for unsoundness of mind and state custodianship, or you're a foreigner seeking asylum or permanent residence, or you're a victim of a violent offense and you need legal aid, or you've been unlawfully detained by police and the list goes on. So while the amount of time may differ, the actual cost per case is determined by the time it takes to process it not by how many pens are in the lawyer's office or whether he's also barred with the supreme court and a rocket surgeon. The point is, it works the same for medical services. It does not matter at all that the facility that provided care is capable of providing more care or different care. The level of care provided and received was the same, and in a single payer/purchaser/UHC situation the cost to the communal society that picks up the bill is the same. It makes perfect sense for the OP to have a gut reaction to the price gouging being bullshit because it is complete loving bullshit on the face of it. Now, assuming we care about the plight of regular folks, I also feel I should mention that the loving horror stories that come out of your system make me feel really sad and angry. I recently had some concerning health related problems and since the cost to me was functionally nil I immediately got in touch with my personal - state assigned - doctor and got ordered up a slew of tests, EKG, the full workup. I could do that and not worry a single second, because when you have a system in which everything is priced the same the metric of success is patient outcomes and not whether you can successfully bankrupt the patient. The comparable level of care I received would likely easily run an american patient into five digits of $, a hard sell for a population with ever increasing poverty. So when the core of your message is this: Doctor Party posted:I am arguing that currently in the real world health care in America costs a certain amount. You can accept that or move or choose not to utilize American health care. When there is actually no goddamned logical reason why this is A: neccessary or B: acceptable my message to you is that nobody should accept a single loving bill an american healtcare institution issues, nor the insurance companies. In fact, they should probably go delinquent on all of them, every single one of them, at the same time. That's about the level of response that the "real world" of american healthcare deserves, because the basic level of respect and obedience to any law requires a basic foundation of justice and functionality. The last and final teachings of law is that if a law is unjust it should not be followed. If the functionality of your set of rules is such that it makes people suffer needlessly, or if it creates all manner of unjust outcomes in direct violation of multitudes of human rights laws or principles, that set of rules should disregarded or struck null and void. The norwegian supreme court has done so in certain cases and I'd love for a kind of ordre public or fundamental disagreement with general human rights and decency argument to stick against the enforcement of such bills. I know that would never ever happen in the US, but god drat if I wouldn't love to see that happen. And to finish out my insane rant Doctor Party posted:Of course we need a better health care system not run by for profit corporations in America. But that alone will not reduce our costs to the same as other developed countries. We have a myriad of systemic problems and this is one of many. Of course you do. It probably would reduce your costs because you have no loving idea what UHC in the US would look like, it would probably have such a strong bargaining position the systemic savings alone would bring you on par with the actual developed world. Hell, it would be such an economic boost to the US you should probably factor that in, because while the health benefits are huge so are the ones to your workforce after eliminating medical bills. Your systemic problems are solved with a systemic shift, none of what you mentioned are significant factors or have already been solved in similar conditions in other countries and I cannot believe I'm having to explain that concept to you and the absolute idiocy of American Exceptionalism in the middle of loving The Year of our Covid 2020.
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Dec 6, 2020 19:56
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When Jesus threw out the money lenders, it meant that bills not timely set to me, as ordered by the gospel of the UCC, are invalid and your attempt to collect on them violates my first amendment right to freedom of religion
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Dec 6, 2020 20:12
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Nice piece of fish posted:Of course you do. It probably would reduce your costs because you have no loving idea what UHC in the US would look like, it would probably have such a strong bargaining position the systemic savings alone would bring you on par with the actual developed world. Hell, it would be such an economic boost to the US you should probably factor that in, because while the health benefits are huge so are the ones to your workforce after eliminating medical bills. Your systemic problems are solved with a systemic shift, none of what you mentioned are significant factors or have already been solved in similar conditions in other countries and I cannot believe I'm having to explain that concept to you and the absolute idiocy of American Exceptionalism in the middle of loving The Year of our Covid 2020. If you're ranting to a medical doctor they are so far up the rear end of the system carrying their insane medical school debt they literally can't see a picture this big. And it's the only way to actually change the system. It has to be systemic, starting with med school, and the people caught up in the middle who have already paid for med school, etc are gonna be in a lovely spot and need transitional help. Which is another reason medical doctors don't want to think about that. They signed up for a certain thing, and that thing needs to change radically to make this work for real.
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Dec 6, 2020 20:34
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Of course there are benefits to universal health care. I support universal health care. And yeah I am not a lawyer, so maybe my analogy made no sense. Some issues require more costly legal work and others less. Even if the government provides you with "free" legal representation there is a different cost to the government and society for that representation. Everyone refusing to pay their bills as you suggest will not have a good result. My point is this is our reality. We should work to fix it. But right now if you get a bill then I'd suggest you either pay it or reach out to a lawyer about the consequences of not paying it. That's reasonable on an individual level fine. But if everyone just stopped paying the bills as you suggest then 1) patients with the bills will suffer consequences to their credit and face legal ramifications potentially 2) hospitals and doctors offices will struggle financially. If no one pays the bills then you'll see hospitals and services going out of business. Probably those in more under served areas where they are already struggling. The fancy doctors offices and hospitals in rich areas will trim some fat and keep on going. The Medicaid hospitals and offices will just go out of business. So who did that help? That attitude of just burn it all down is dumb. Of course we need to improve but you're giving bad advice. And finally there's no free lunch man. Emergency room visits literally cost more than office visits. They just do. And you can say well the cost is split up and subsidized and divided OK fine. But each thing has a real cost and the cost of a er visit is higher than a doctor's office. So in our system an er visit costs the patient more than does an office visit. Not a big surprise. In a universal health care system er visits still cost more even if they're not itemized or billed to the consumer.
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Dec 6, 2020 20:50
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Imagine a for-profit insurance and healthcare industry holding itself hostage if you don't allow it to bankrupt and/or kill people, and going along with it. Maybe we are exceptional in America. Exceptionally stupid.
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Dec 6, 2020 22:47
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BonerGhost posted:
Trump got elected president. I'd say that tracks.
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Dec 6, 2020 23:03
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Without wading into this, you might want to call the billing department for the hospital and plead poverty. The list price is usually inflated and you'll possibly knock a zero off. Doesn't hurt to ask.
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Dec 6, 2020 23:50
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Doctor Party posted:That attitude of just burn it all down is dumb. Of course we need to improve but you're giving bad advice. It's hard to see how things can change when you're right in the middle of it. Perhaps a change of perspective might help; go to Norway, see how they do it. Maybe go visit Nice Piece of Fish in his snow-haunted cabin in the woods. After than, I am sure that you'll never worry about American health care again.
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Dec 7, 2020 01:07
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Yea if you didn’t want to knowingly profit off of a corrupt and perversely unjust system, then maybe you should have been a lawyer or something
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Dec 7, 2020 04:07
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Doctor Party posted:Of course there are benefits to universal health care. I support universal health care. Just quickly since this has gone on long enough:
So, what does one do when faced with a fundamentally immoral, broken system of a fundamental necessity for getting, say, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Well, you suggested it, actually. Don't participate. Which is to say, my previous point was that you can't not have health care. So here's what that looks like: a debitor's strike. Everyone stops paying their bills as a collective action and your system crashes. Is that bad? Well it might create a crisis so big the entire industry would need to be nationalized. Or bailed out. End result? I suggest the goverment pays and institutes UHC. In fact, your health care system is so bad a general strike might be in order. Now, am I saying that this will ever happen? That the american public is capable of this level of coordinated rebellion? No, I have no such hopes. But it is about the level of response your "gently caress you, pay me whatever I want or you get sick and die" blackmail capitalism deserves. Also, since you seem to need this spelled out: we're talking politics right now, de lege ferenda. This is not what legal advice looks like.
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Dec 7, 2020 09:10
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sullat posted:It's hard to see how things can change when you're right in the middle of it. Perhaps a change of perspective might help; go to Norway, see how they do it. Maybe go visit Nice Piece of Fish in his snow-haunted cabin in the woods. After than, I am sure that you'll never worry about American health care again. I do love discussing anatomy.
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Dec 7, 2020 09:11
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Oh my god shut the gently caress up
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Dec 7, 2020 15:31
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blarzgh posted:Oh my god shut the gently caress up Make me, you snitch. Also someone hosed with my avatar but they messed up, it's still pretty cool.
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Dec 7, 2020 16:32
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blarzgh posted:Oh my god shut the gently caress up I thought you didn't give legal advice here?
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Dec 7, 2020 18:05
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JOINDER
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Dec 7, 2020 19:59
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This hypothetical came up in a recent conversation at a virtual happy hour and no one was sure of the answer. If someone in a group chat was boasting about hiding or omitting information when receiving a security clearance, who would you actually report that to? Since this is purely hypothetical feel free to also assume for the sake of argument the fictitious individual is a MAGA and the desire to report is 100% spite based.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:09
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Your local FBI office. That's a potential career-ender though, so be sure your spite is worth it if we're talking "failed to report pot use in college 20 years ago" though.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:21
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Once knew someone who was acing their CIA entrance exams until they failed the polygraph on ever having had sex with an animal Whoops
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Dec 7, 2020 20:24
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Are bees animals
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Dec 7, 2020 20:34
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Nonexistence posted:Once knew someone who was acing their CIA entrance exams until they failed the polygraph on ever having had sex with an animal THE QUESTION MADE ME NERVOUS THATS ALL
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Dec 7, 2020 20:42
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Nonexistence posted:Once knew someone who was acing their CIA entrance exams until they failed the polygraph on ever having had sex with an animal Real Talk: would having a giggle fit at that question also cause one to fail the Test?
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Dec 7, 2020 20:43
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