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theres already a gay thread
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Dec 14, 2020 00:55
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ToxicAcne posted:Who is this? Listen to theory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVlJAV8BrZw
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Dec 14, 2020 01:05
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THS posted:theres already a gay thread yea take your pick
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Dec 14, 2020 01:15
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Dec 14, 2020 01:23
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wanting to deep throat boots isn't gay
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Dec 14, 2020 01:32
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T-man posted:wanting to deep throat boots isn't gay Thought you were talking about Boots Riley at first 
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Dec 14, 2020 01:47
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Dec 14, 2020 03:42
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i say swears online posted:yeah as per the original definition, essentially large swathes of the first world economy has become lumpen-fied. i don't find it very applicable nowadays except to explain away failure. maybe cubicles are just the death of leftism and we're destined for the matrix jelly-pods as i understand it cubicles gave too much privacy and it's all about open office plans now
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Dec 14, 2020 09:39
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Mr. Lobe posted:Thought you were talking about Boots Riley at first i'm kind of shocked to have known that one before anyone, let alone an indy filmmaker THS posted:theres already a gay thread every thread in cspam is gay, but we don't have one on queer theory
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Dec 14, 2020 09:40
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lumpenproletariat is a confused term, since Marx wasn't fully able to disentangle his own concepts of legality and propriety from the class relations. the science has to advanced to where the current definitions are, iirc, the proletariat are the class that reproduces itself through production, or C-M-C the bourgeois are the class that reproduces itself through ownership, or M-C-M' the lumpen-proletariat are the class that reproduces itself through theft, or ()-M-C where () represents the ability to extract wealth from a area or populace by means of force alone. It could be as simple as a home-invasion or protection racket, or more complex means like achieving monopoly not through the domination of a market (as the bourgeois do), but through the suppression of a market all together (by attacking and destroying other suppliers of the product directly. claim a turf, and you can extract excess rents as long as you can defend it) sakai's whole thing is to point out that while most conversations about lumpen-proletariats are focused on street gangs and small criminals, the police and the military are, at their core, lumpen institutions. this can be seen by the fact that as the american state has decayed, the straight up admitted theft (civil forfeiture) by most police departments has skyrocketed, and also helps elucidate some of the secondary political divisions between lumpen-police and their big-bourgeois liberal handlers.
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Dec 14, 2020 10:25
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is that specifically all-volunteer militaries
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Dec 14, 2020 10:36
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Scrree posted:sakai's whole thing is to point out that while most conversations about lumpen-proletariats are focused on street gangs and small criminals, the police and the military are, at their core, lumpen institutions. this can be seen by the fact that as the american state has decayed, the straight up admitted theft (civil forfeiture) by most police departments has skyrocketed, and also helps elucidate some of the secondary political divisions between lumpen-police and their big-bourgeois liberal handlers. that makes sense. if the cops are ultimately the biggest gang, that could be seen as having a priviledged place as an example of the lumpen class which is granted legitimacy by the ownership class. it's also interesting in terms of the cia and similar programs, which are already lumpen by this definition but naturally make the leap into the drug trade as well (taken even further by reagan, or maybe that was just a rare case of getting caught) also i took a great course on punishment in early modern england (~1600-1800) back in university. there were constant crime waves that were explained in all sort of ways, and were actually just soldiers coming home after a war and turning to highway robbery (literally) because they were then unemployed. mps were robbed on a regular basis on the way from their estates to london and they refused to see or admit this, lol. anyhow, yes, volunteer and conscript armies are very different. and frankly we treat ex-soldiers worse than back when they could get away with that poo poo. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 10:38
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sounds like I need to read this new book
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Dec 14, 2020 10:41
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the important thing to take away from lumpenproletariat is that, by his own definition, marx did a self-own there by being one
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Dec 14, 2020 15:36
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Lump it up, lump it in, let us begin we came to win, profiting that’s a sin
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Dec 14, 2020 21:27
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croup coughfield posted:ok real talk what the gently caress is the post-left isnt that everyone here. socialism died sometime in the mid to late 80s
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Dec 14, 2020 22:02
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mila kunis posted:isnt that everyone here. socialism died sometime in the mid to late 80s sure but the term is used for a specific online clique of [redacted]s loosely clustered around the Australian simpleton Aimee Therese and the pretty terrible site The Bellows.
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Dec 14, 2020 22:08
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GalacticAcid posted:sure but the term is used for a specific online clique of [redacted]s loosely clustered around the Australian simpleton Aimee Therese and the pretty terrible site The Bellows. that must be new cause when I was on Twitter it was just used to refer to egoists/super dumbshit anarchists (please don’t say that’s redundant)
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Dec 14, 2020 22:13
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Yeah you’re absolutely right, I’d say the term took hold only within the last ~2 years
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Dec 14, 2020 22:20
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i say swears online posted:is that specifically all-volunteer militaries I'd say so. I think alot of leftists give way too much leeway to most Western Militaries. They are guilty of most of the same systemic issues as the police. Edit: The members of them at least. ToxicAcne fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 23:45
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ToxicAcne posted:I'd say so. I think alot of leftists give way too much leeway to most Western Militaries. They are guilty of most of the same systemic issues as the police. They're guilty of much worse than the police, but in a materialist analysis guilt isn't the question. The nature of the institutions is such that volunteer enlisted soldiers are far less politically reliable, in extremis, than police. Capitalist police forces are structured in ways that maximize political reliability (chiefly, the cradle to grave career model,* and lack of enlisted / commissioned distinction) and their day to day operations place them in direct antagonism with "their own" working class. To structure a capitalist military in the same way would be both prohibitively expensive, and more decisively would be severely detrimental to its effectiveness, which is probably the only reason the ruling class doesn't. *a cop is probably going to be a cop until he retires, and he can be pretty confident he won't eat dog food when he does, an enlisted soldier likely has been a worker before, and knows he will be a worker again. Pomeroy fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 03:06
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aren't cops also far less likely to experience combat or get maimed/injured? The desk job enlisted are always bigger braggarts than the people who actually know what war is. (The systemic genocide of the poor, created by two or more states.)
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Dec 15, 2020 03:30
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T-man posted:aren't cops also far less likely to experience combat or get maimed/injured? The desk job enlisted are always bigger braggarts than the people who actually know what war is. (The systemic genocide of the poor, created by two or more states.) on the flip side, they're way way way more likely to go out independently and start poo poo
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Dec 15, 2020 03:36
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Aren't more and more people career soldiers though? I thought that although many people join the military as economic conscripts, many more are from middle class families. I was even reading that in the US there is a growing military caste, with families sending generation upon generation of soldier.
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Dec 15, 2020 03:58
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there is a cultural difference between the branches: the ones that were filled with draftees and the ones that were filled with volunteers seeking to avoid the draft. even after the draft ended, the cultural residue remained. the cultural heritage of the police otoh is the slave patrol and the lynch mob.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:08
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ToxicAcne posted:Aren't more and more people career soldiers though? I thought that although many people join the military as economic conscripts, many more are from middle class families. I was even reading that in the US there is a growing military caste, with families sending generation upon generation of soldier. not really for enlisted. there's absolutely 'bloat' in the officer class of exactly the people you describe tho when i went to ft benning in '09 my 60 person cohort was about 40% economic desperation, 20% aimless nobodies, 10% hard charging flag-wavers, 10% court-ordered enlists and 10% puerto ricans looking for any way off the island whatsoever i say swears online fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 04:16
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ToxicAcne posted:Aren't more and more people career soldiers though? I thought that although many people join the military as economic conscripts, many more are from middle class families. I was even reading that in the US there is a growing military caste, with families sending generation upon generation of soldier. Generally speaking military careers are limited to the officer corps, though at different times the military may be more or less inclined to encourage reenlistments, and typical lengths of service vary accordingly. The latest comprehensive figures I've seen are the Heritage study you've probably heard about, but its definition of "middle class" is a liberal one, not a Marxist one. Accepting its methodology as sound, which I generally would not, in Marxist terms the poorest workers are somewhat underrepresented and the petite bourgeois somewhat overrepresented among enlisted, but overall 75% to 80% of enlistees are from the working class. The figures in that study don't really allow for one to break down the last 20 to 25% between labor aristocracy, petite bourgeois, and bourgeois.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:25
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i say swears online posted:on the flip side, they're way way way more likely to go out independently and start poo poo This is a good example of the key difference, independent ideologically driven initiative is useful in cops, and to a degree in military officers, though even their discipline is considerably more strict, in ways that would be seriously damaging to the function of the military in the case of enlisted troops.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:31
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i've seen an officer cohort and their lives were radically different than the people i went through basic with
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Dec 15, 2020 04:32
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Hmm so would it be accurate to say that special forces type of roles attract the bloodthirsty assholes because it is more prestigious and therefore attracts the bougie true believer types? The Marines seem particularly chuddy.
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Dec 15, 2020 05:17
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i say swears online posted:i've seen an officer cohort and their lives were radically different than the people i went through basic with I take it everything was a lot more relaxed, not "combat-ready" as it were?
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Dec 15, 2020 05:20
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troops are even worse than cops. the economic coercion argument is just as applicable to cops, ice agents etc., the biggest difference is americans don't need to live in fear of the extreme violence that's meted out on their behalf in other countries.
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Dec 15, 2020 05:38
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ToxicAcne posted:Hmm so would it be accurate to say that special forces type of roles attract the bloodthirsty assholes because it is more prestigious and therefore attracts the bougie true believer types? For smaller elite units that's probably true, but I wouldn't put marines as group in that category. They do have a very skillfully developed self image as "warriors" or whatever you want to call it in comparison to the Army, and are really good at getting people to buy into it; by way of example, I knew a guy who who served his tours entirely stateside in a technical assignment, and for years he would beat up on himself as not being a "real" marine, not having seen combat, but in practice they're another bunch of enlisted troops, just better indoctrinated.
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Dec 15, 2020 05:39
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exmarx posted:troops are even worse than cops. the economic coercion argument is just as applicable to cops, ice agents etc., the biggest difference is americans don't need to live in fear of the extreme violence that's meted out on their behalf in other countries. In economic terms, I'd consider them more comparable to prison guards than any of those, you don't see jail diversion programs for any kind of domestic law enforcement, while prison guards are often drawn from the same populations they oppress, but I think the focus on coercion misses the key point. A materialist looks at cops and soldiers differently not because the decision to join one institution or the other is more justifiable, as you say, the military would be even less so, but based on the effects of those institutions on their consciousness, and how they might be expected to act on that basis. It's helpful to look at the attitude of the state and the ruling class: military insubordination is regarded as a crime, even when it has a seemingly reactionary political character, even within the officer class, because the ruling class sees the military as something potentially dangerous that must be kept securely under its control. Police insubordination, so long as it has a reactionary political character, is a complete non-event, on the vanishingly rare occasions when it is lightly reprimanded, this is only done to appease working class anger, the ruling class has no fear whatsoever of the police "getting out of hand," except insofar as it might provoke a reaction against them. Pomeroy fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 05:47
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Victory Position posted:I take it everything was a lot more relaxed, not "combat-ready" as it were? no sorry not current circumstances just backgrounds
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Dec 15, 2020 05:50
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iirc military police are an order of magnitude more likely to be arrested than other jobs
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Dec 15, 2020 05:54
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I think there's a big difference between noticing that troops are more susceptible to leftist ideas than cops, and trying to paint them as victims. The sheer amount of fascism and barbarity inflicted in Vietnam, Afghanistan Iraq etc. absolutely dwarfs the suffering inflicted by the police, ever. Let's also not forget the sexual violence against women, and the fact that the military acts as an incubator for fascist ideas.
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Dec 15, 2020 05:57
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ToxicAcne posted:I think there's a big difference between noticing that troops are more susceptible to leftist ideas than cops, and trying to paint them as victims. The sheer amount of fascism and barbarity inflicted in Vietnam, Afghanistan Iraq etc. absolutely dwarfs the suffering inflicted by the police, ever. Let's also not forget the sexual violence against women, and the fact that the military acts as an incubator for fascist ideas. Exactly, that's the thing, it's not a moral distinction, it's a political distinction, but often folks will try to defend the materialist position in moral terms, because that's how the question is being put to them, and then you get this focus on coercion, and the discussion turns to mitigating factors in enlistment, and victimization. Pomeroy fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 06:02
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ToxicAcne posted:The Marines seem particularly chuddy. in my experience Marines are the absolute worst vets to work with and just awful coworkers in general. the most entitled, lazy, stupid motherfuckers on Earth
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Dec 15, 2020 06:16
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Pomeroy posted:In economic terms, I'd consider them more comparable to prison guards than any of those, you don't see jail diversion programs for any kind of domestic law enforcement, while prison guards are often drawn from the same populations they oppress, but I think the focus on coercion misses the key point. 1917 was the year of decimation. In March, nine men of the Ravenna Brigade were chosen for execution after their regiment protested over the cancellation of leave. More is known about this atrocity than most others because the brigade commander’s aide de camp (ADC) gave a statement to the commission of inquiry set up after Caporetto. Deployed on a notorious sector of the Carso, the brigade’s two regiments alternated their front-line tours with fatigue and labour duties in the rear. To keep up their spirits, the men were promised perks in the form of extra leave, which never materialised. When one of the regiments was ordered to relieve another unit elsewhere on the Carso, ‘there was a moment of discontent’ in one battalion, whose men had been drinking. The battalion commander informed the brigade headquarters ‘as a matter of duty, but more to offload the responsibility’. The general commanding the Ravenna Brigade hurried to the battalion barracks. ‘We found the men a bit annoyed, tired, and almost all in dreadful physical condition, officers included.’ The CO and his ADC let the men air their grievances. For the most part they were amenable to reason, but a few shots were fired in the air. This prompted the ADC to telephone division HQ, which despatched ‘lots of carabinieri’. While the men calmed down and set off for their new posting, Division HQ sent staff officers to the spot and informed the corps commander, who telephoned the brigade ADC and thundered that the barracks should be burned to the ground and the offenders shot. The ADC tried to assure him that order had already been restored. The divisional CO now got involved, presumably to cover himself vis- à-vis the corps commander. By the time he reached the barracks, they were empty; it was late at night and raining hard. The brigade CO reported that everything was in order and the troops were on their way to their new posting. ‘How many did you shoot?’ asked the divisional CO. ‘None,’ came the answer. ‘That’s bad, very bad!’ exclaimed the divisional CO. Then the carabinieri found two soldiers asleep in the barracks. They had no idea that their company had left, nobody had woken them. The brigade CO told the carabinieri to put the men up against a wall and shoot them. One of the soldiers howled so desperately (‘What have I done to make you shoot me? I’ve got seven children!’) that the carabinieri hesitated. The divisional CO spoke up: ‘Let us be done with this jabbering. Shoot them at once. Orders are orders.’ The brigade CO was relieved the following day. The corps commander ordered 20 soldiers to be picked by lot from the most rebellious company. Five of these men were selected for execution. This process presumably doubled the agony of those compelled to take part, and therefore also – in the corps commander’s view – the salutary deterrent effect. The firing squad shook so badly that six volleys were needed to finish the job. The ADC told the incoming brigade CO that the measures taken ‘seemed a little exaggerated’, and had shattered the men’s morale. ‘The soldiers trembled at the mere sight of me.’ A fortnight later the Ravenna Brigade was transferred to the middle Isonzo, near Gorizia. To his astonishment, the ADC was called in to divisional HQ along with his new CO and told that he would be a member in a court martial of nine men involved in the rebellion. (‘What!, I thought, won’t you let it drop?’) Before the court martial convened, the corps commander urged severity. The brigade commander’s reaction was terse: ‘That’s easily said. We each of us have a conscience.’ Charged with reluctance (not refusal) to take up their new position, the men could not defend themselves because the court martial required no proof either way. According to the ADC, ‘nothing was established’. The prosecution called no witnesses. One defendant was a corporal who had fought in Libya, volunteered in 1915, and already been acquitted on similar charges over a different episode. His bearing impressed the court, which nonetheless sentenced him to death along with three infantrymen. The others were given ten years in prison. Refusing a blindfold, the corporal urged the firing squad to ‘Aim at the breast, and always serve your country. Long live Italy!’ The brigade commander muttered in distress that he should have been promoted to colonel, not shot as a criminal. The bloodletting was not over. The corps commander now ruled that all those men who had received capital sentences for desertion – due to returning late from leave – should be executed, as it would be wrong to show clemency when the brigade was ‘disturbed’. Consequently another 18 men were shot. The brigade commander reported that the entire brigade felt terrorised; it should be sent out of the line for a spell. The corps commander refused; if the measures taken did not restore discipline, he would take others. The brigade commander – ‘perhaps more concerned for his career than anything else’, as the ADC boldly remarked to the commission – raised no further objection.
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Dec 15, 2020 06:44
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