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It is likely that the entire Roman order of battle operated on the recognition that no plan survived contact with the enemy, the solution to that being flexibility and adaptability. This was not just about equipment or the application of one particular formation over others. Rather, it was the centurions themselves, and the level of autonomy they enjoyed on the battlefield. The centurions of any particular cohort or maniple likely knew what the overall objective was, but once they were cut off from their command structure by smoke, dust, blood and chaos, they could (and would) execute on those objectives as their circumstances dictated. Generally speaking, centurions were praised for audacity and initiative. Conversely, I'm aware of no centurion who was executed for making a risky call and messing up. Demoted or chastised, likely. But this wasn't Egypt where the god king would cut his head off for impiety and bad battle field timing (or for that matter, cut his head off because his men loved him and he was a threat to the god king's position). In other words, Italo-Roman culture itself supported a level of independent thinking, action and improvisation that would probably have alarmed most contemporary kings and generals. Roman commanders weren't threatened by successful centurions, they were glad for them. Caesar's own Gallic Wars is filled with honorable mentions for centurions and legates who, when faced with unexpected developments, did something brave and totally off the cuff, and either prevailed or went down in a blaze of glory. And Caesar himself was not diminished by this, rather his gravitas was only enhanced by the deeds of his subordinates. He didn't need to steal the limelight, his society would reward them both. So if circumstances justified a condensed formation (say to repel a charge, protect the wounded, or turtle up if flanked), the centurions could order it. Or they could spread out to flush skirmishers and reduce missile fire casualties. They could order a charge to relieve a beleaguered neighboring unit, find an exposed flank and lock it down, or do what they thought needed to get done. The gladius/pila/shield combo they were using worked so well because while not optimal at any one role, it was a kit flexible enough to succeed at any role in the hands of disciplined soldiers under competent local leadership. Well, nearly any role. Turned out horse archers were a problem. But jazz quintet, rather than orchestra. This doesn't mean that there was never a Roman commander who didn't run his army a different or more restrictive way. But I think it's the right conclusion that a good cohort was going to be whatever it needed to be in the moment, thanks to the way their chain of command worked and what their equipment allowed them to do.
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Dec 15, 2020 15:43
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Grand Fromage posted:We don't know how they fought, there are no sources to support any particular read on how far apart legionaries were. Experimental archaeology suggests that around a three foot box is needed for someone equipped like a legionary to use their weapons and not interfere with their neighbors, but that's about as far as you can go. We can assume there was not a standard distance and formations were adapted to what they were facing, though, since that we do have some evidence for--the testudo shows they had different formations for different purposes. We know they changed formations from multiple sources. Scipio uses a column deployment to avoid damage from the elephants at Zama, and at the battle of watling street, the romans are described as using a zig zag formation like this /\/\/\/\ formed of tightly spaced soldiers to try and force the attackers in to the wedges where they can be killed more easily, while trusting the men at the points to hold their ground and just not die. The evidence for phalanx use comes mostly from their equipment, since you don't outfit troops like hoplites unless they are going to fight like hoplites. Until after the samnite wars, their equipment was essentially identical to the what the greeks were using and that style of equipment is pretty bad for anything other than phalanx based tactics.
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Dec 15, 2020 16:28
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physeter posted:But this wasn't Egypt where the god king would cut his head off for impiety and bad battle field timing (or for that matter, cut his head off because his men loved him and he was a threat to the god king's position).
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Dec 15, 2020 16:55
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Terrible Opinions posted:Egypt covers a huge period of times and cultures, but at least from the Seventeenth Dynasty we have records from soldiers tombs of battlefield accomplishments being consistently rewarded with seemingly standardized awards, promotions, and accompanying compensation.
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Dec 15, 2020 17:13
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Iirc New Kingdom and on Egypt has a much more professionalized army. But despite having the New Kingdom having the most famous names like Ramesses and Tutankhamen most people think earlier Egypt when you mention “ancient Egypt” which lasted for a long rear end time. Ramesses II was further from Caesar than we are from William the Conqueror and the great pyramids where more than a millenium before him. It’s kinda staggering to think about. Especially when you remember that those pyramid workers were exactly like us, bitching about low wages and joking about the king jacking off into the Nile and spending their leisure time getting drunk and drawing dicks all over everything Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 18:19
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Tod is really cool, and so is scholagladiatora. The fact that both of them often collaborate with tobias capwell gives them a lot of credibility. Tod also made the real swords for the witcher tv show which is cool af. hmm ok, i was worried he was like that other british guy with the beard and curly hair constantly making unfounded history takes and being just kind of a dickwad in general
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Dec 15, 2020 18:48
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Kanine posted:hmm ok, i was worried he was like that other british guy with the beard and curly hair constantly making unfounded history takes and being just kind of a dickwad in general Matt has a degree in a relevant field and was employed by a british antiques dealer as their weapon expert. he also has run a HEMA club for like 20 years now, so his takes are normally pretty drat good. Tod is just a really skilled artisan who does his homework and tries not to say anything uncorroborated
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Dec 15, 2020 18:51
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:
The first recorded strike happened in ancient Egypt. And unlike more modern times the pharao didn't send in troops to end it, he actually gave the strikers what they wanted.
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Dec 15, 2020 21:32
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WoodrowSkillson posted:We know they changed formations from multiple sources. Scipio uses a column deployment to avoid damage from the elephants at Zama, and at the battle of watling street, the romans are described as using a zig zag formation like this /\/\/\/\ formed of tightly spaced soldiers to try and force the attackers in to the wedges where they can be killed more easily, while trusting the men at the points to hold their ground and just not die. Yeah basically. The Romans changed over from a Greek-ish round shield to the square scutum a bit before the Samnite Wars, possibly after getting beat up by the Gauls a bunch. This was very early in Roman history at any rate. SlothfulCobra posted:Is that only after they were reformed into maniples? I thought they started out as more typical phalanxes with shield walls. Yeah like i said, the Romans switched over to maniples fairly early on. There were still triarii kitted out like hoplites, but those guys barely seemed to join battles. You rotate a cohort by waiting for the fighting to die down and both sides to get tired, and then somebody does a signal and the cohort shuffled backwards. The details beyond this are not clear, but rotating individual soldiers is a bad way of doing it because casualties arent consistent. Youd end up mixing guys from different units up for sure. physeter posted:There will be exceptions to any given statement I made, and I was randomly and perhaps incorrectly picking Egypt on that one. It's all a very large period of time encompassing millions of individuals. But Roman centurions being a distinct group that co-existed and operated alongside the legate-class officers may have been unique in its persistence and extent of autonomy. The point of what I'm saying is there's no set metric to how far the legionaries are standing apart, or for that matter virtually anything else they are doing. A centurion will just tell them to change it up and they can do that. No, because centurions arent commanding automatons via hivemind. The legionaries need to be trained for some kind of formation, and the default was a bunch of guys 3-6 feet apart in ranks. You coupdnt expect centurions to be constantly coming up for formations off-the-cuff, nor the soldiers to be able to adjust to these formations on the fly, for every single engagement.
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Dec 15, 2020 22:33
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To be honest I'm not aware of any actual sourcing for the specifics of how legionaries spaced themselves in formation, rotated squads, employed weapon techniques, etc. As much as I find the topic interesting, I think it's important to recognize that we don't have a lot of evidence to support surety on any of it.
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Dec 16, 2020 00:05
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Kaal posted:To be honest I'm not aware of any actual sourcing for the specifics of how legionaries spaced themselves in formation, rotated squads, employed weapon techniques, etc. As much as I find the topic interesting, I think it's important to recognize that we don't have a lot of evidence to support surety on any of it. Yes, there is Polybius, who was Greek historian well regarded by the Romans, if he was wrong about basic details of the Roman military, they probably would have noted that. The picture of Rome's army around 240 BC comes from him, and its a bunch of guys with a decent amount of space between each other, usijg big shielda to hunker behind and stab enemies that get tired or make errors.
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Dec 16, 2020 00:36
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:No, because centurions arent commanding automatons via hivemind. Slim Jim Pickens posted:The legionaries need to be trained for some kind of formation, and the default was a bunch of guys 3-6 feet apart in ranks. You coupdnt expect centurions to be constantly coming up for formations off-the-cuff, nor the soldiers to be able to adjust to these formations on the fly, for every single engagement.
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Dec 16, 2020 01:15
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If anyone is interested in actual scholarship on the roman army this Adrian Goldsworthy book is very approachable with tons of pictures to help visualize things. https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Roman-Army/dp/0500288992
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Dec 16, 2020 01:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:the king jacking off into the Nile and spending their leisure time getting drunk and drawing dicks all over everything Wait, what? I know about the homosexual strivings of Set and Horus, but 
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Dec 16, 2020 02:21
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physeter posted:Nor were the generals commanding the centurions via hivemind, so who exactly do you propose is making tactical decisions? You don't honestly think the centurions sent a message to the commander asking if they could assume a bracing formation for a cavalry charge that was mere moments from impact, do you? Of course the legates and centurions are making those decisions, there's no one else to do it. No you've missed my point. I know what a centurion is/does, but they don't have the power to will formations into the minds of a hundred guys who haven't drilled for it. It flies against all of military history. Where there are drills, there are "defaults" even if the troops can adopt other formations. For the Romans, it was simply not a phalanx. Their equipment wasn't suited for it and descriptions of Roman infantry either describe them as spaced apart, or in contrast with a Greek/Hellenic phalanx. I don't know what point you're arguing against here, Polybius is the one who credits the spaced out Roman formation for their victory against the Macedonians and their phalanx in broken terrain. But as he describes it, it was not a formation adopted for a special occasion, but simply how the Roman infantry regularly arranged itself.
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Dec 16, 2020 02:23
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Drilling doesn't mean that all the formations will automatically manage themselves or that every soldier will have a grasp on the tactical situation and what they should be doing at any given moment. I don't see what's so unbelievable about a more experienced guy telling the soldiers around him what to do and where to go.
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Dec 16, 2020 03:16
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:No you've missed my point. I know what a centurion is/does, but they don't have the power to will formations into the minds of a hundred guys who haven't drilled for it. It flies against all of military history. I'm very confused about what your issue is with the conversation. The centurions entire job was managing his troops, and considering the romans drilled incessantly, there is zero reason not to expect them to have drilled various standard formations. Close ranks, open spacing, wedges, shieldwalls, columns, and more are all referenced historically, and it's likely they had plenty more for other foreseeable situations that never were specifically called out in histories. For example, Caesar had his legionaries use their pila as spears against pompey's cavalry, and it's not referenced as some genius new strategy. The only unique part was how he screened them to surprise pompey's cavalry. It is entirely within reason to expect a centurion to be making significant formation changes during a battle to respond to the changing situation around them.
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Dec 16, 2020 03:45
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Alot of these details are poorly sourced, which makes me think alot of the training and skills were institutional knowledge handed down almost through a system of apprenticeship, as centurions and legionaries fought side by side, the latter absorbing the lessons of the former, and talented members rising up into the former. Not something that needs to be written down.
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Dec 16, 2020 03:59
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Its also the kind of thing that does not get written about back then. Many of those things are subjects the author would assume the reader just knows. But we can extrapolate a lot from context clues and everything else. Its abundantly clear the Romans used advanced tactics and battlefield adjustments. Even going down to the ear holes on their helmets which show the importance they placed on hearing orders and signals.
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Dec 16, 2020 04:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:Drilling doesn't mean that all the formations will automatically manage themselves or that every soldier will have a grasp on the tactical situation and what they should be doing at any given moment. WoodrowSkillson posted:I'm very confused about what your issue is with the conversation. The centurions entire job was managing his troops, and considering the romans drilled incessantly, there is zero reason not to expect them to have drilled various standard formations. Close ranks, open spacing, wedges, shieldwalls, columns, and more are all referenced historically, and it's likely they had plenty more for other foreseeable situations that never were specifically called out in histories. For example, Caesar had his legionaries use their pila as spears against pompey's cavalry, and it's not referenced as some genius new strategy. The only unique part was how he screened them to surprise pompey's cavalry. My issue is that physeter, as far as I can tell, is rejecting the idea that the Romans had a routine standing formation. I think this is a big overstep, there's no advantage to eliminating a basic standing formation where your soldiers can use all their capabilities effectively. At the very least, soldiers that are idling in reserve, or in the process of maneuvering on the battlefield, or practicing combat drills, don't need bespoke formations. I don't have any issue with the idea that centurions could order their units to change their formation.
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Dec 16, 2020 04:53
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:My issue is that physeter, as far as I can tell, is rejecting the idea that the Romans had a routine standing formation. I think this is a big overstep, there's no advantage to eliminating a basic standing formation where your soldiers can use all their capabilities effectively. At the very least, soldiers that are idling in reserve, or in the process of maneuvering on the battlefield, or practicing combat drills, don't need bespoke formations. Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. I would agree then, cause yeah, you'll have a standard formation that soldiers would assume.
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Dec 16, 2020 04:55
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:My issue is that physeter, as far as I can tell, is rejecting the idea that the Romans had a routine standing formation. No, I'm not.
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Dec 16, 2020 05:51
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physeter posted:No, I'm not. You did though: physeter posted:Nor were the generals commanding the centurions via hivemind, so who exactly do you propose is making tactical decisions? You don't honestly think the centurions sent a message to the commander asking if they could assume a bracing formation for a cavalry charge that was mere moments from impact, do you? Of course the legates and centurions are making those decisions, there's no one else to do it.
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Dec 16, 2020 11:39
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ChubbyChecker posted:You did though: People who read history and watch history tv, and maybe do some re-enactments on perfectly manicured football fields, sometimes get some very weird ideas about how actual human beings did things in the real world. The answer is, obviously, that a cohort would stand how it needed to stand given the realities of our shared physical universe, that if they had a "default formation" it would be adapted or ignored as soon as it wasn't practical to use it, and if their officers didn't like it they'd just tell them to stand in some other way because that's what officers do. It's really not a complicated concept but some people have trouble with it.
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Dec 16, 2020 15:55
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physeter posted:I think by default they stood in an approximate row/column structure. I think that was generally expected. I also think that when inconvenient things like timespace made that difficult, they didn't worry about it very much, because they were grown men who had been navigating timespace for awhile by that point. The idea that absent any other orders that the ~480 men of a Roman cohort are going to be pinwheeling around to make sure they've got a required 3-6 feet of space between each man is loving stupid. At max range that put a single cohort at what, spread out over almost half a mile? Ten cohorts in a legion, assume full strength, now we've got 5,000 men spread over 4+ miles, all pacing around and yelling at each other to move over 2 feet to the left because the optio forgot to specify anything else? That's moronic. It gets even dumber when the idea is that the centurions couldn't do something, you know, completely fuckin' crazy like tell the soldiers to just stand in another way. Because it's just much more historically correct to imagine that an entire cohort is going to be flopping around endlessly on a battlefield trying to get the spacing right, instead of some guy saying "spread out", and they just sort of spread out and get back to doing things that matter. Christ forbid some legionary trip over a rock and take awhile getting up, gonna have to stop the whole maneuver lest the guy behind him cross the 3 foot Polybian barrier. Good luck mustering a cohort in a courtyard or anything, not gonna happen. I mean it could fit 800 people in it easy, but we've got Polybius to worry about so I guess they just killed the guys that couldn't fit, or tore the building down. Dunno what to tell you guys, that's the rules, Caesar said to show up here, we've got our default settings, so I guess we're screwed. Bummer if you're the guy on the battlefield that has to stand in a burning campfire or on a dead horse, got to maintain that 3-6 feet or poo poo's gonna go sideways on us out here. You need to cool down.
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Dec 16, 2020 16:07
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I'm good man, it's the internet
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Dec 16, 2020 16:18
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The first time Marcus and Sextus locked eyes across the unbridgeable gap of the Polybian 3-6 foot minimum, it was love at first sight. A forbidden love! No one could cross that barrier, not until that dipshit from Cohort IIX decided he didn't want to stand in a thorny bush for an hour, resulting in the entire legion having to take three steps to the right, and in that instant, a fleeting touch between them. Oh, such heavenly release. Theirs was a love that broke all the default settings, baby
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Dec 16, 2020 16:27
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Uh huh, well yes it is bad for legionaries to space themselves too close, and Roman officers would be interested in making sure their soldiers had the room to fight effectively. You seem to think 3 feet is a big distance, but its just about one armspan of space. Guys in combat are going to be moving around, you dont want them to bump into each other. Another important element is that the Romans do not use their shields to protect each other, under normal combat circumstances. Number one reason is that Roman historians talk about it explicitly. Number two is that the shields are clearly designed for personal use, not much wider than one person and also curved so they dont interlockwell. The round shield of a hoplite or an anglo-saxon fyrdman is much wider and flatter, designed so they can be actually be overlapped in a shield wall.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:43
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physeter posted:I think by default they stood in an approximate row/column structure. I think that was generally expected. I also think that when inconvenient things like timespace made that difficult, they didn't worry about it very much, because they were grown men who had been navigating timespace for awhile by that point. The idea that absent any other orders that the ~480 men of a Roman cohort are going to be pinwheeling around to make sure they've got a required 3-6 feet of space between each man is loving stupid. At max range that put a single cohort at what, spread out over almost half a mile? Ten cohorts in a legion, assume full strength, now we've got 5,000 men spread over 4+ miles, all pacing around and yelling at each other to move over 2 feet to the left because the optio forgot to specify anything else? That's moronic. It gets even dumber when the idea is that the centurions couldn't do something, you know, completely fuckin' crazy like tell the soldiers to just stand in another way. Because it's just much more historically correct to imagine that an entire cohort is going to be flopping around endlessly on a battlefield trying to get the spacing right, instead of some guy saying "spread out", and they just sort of spread out and get back to doing things that matter. Christ forbid some legionary trip over a rock and take awhile getting up, gonna have to stop the whole maneuver lest the guy behind him cross the 3 foot Polybian barrier. Good luck mustering a cohort in a courtyard or anything, not gonna happen. I mean it could fit 800 people in it easy, but we've got Polybius to worry about so I guess they just killed the guys that couldn't fit, or tore the building down. Dunno what to tell you guys, that's the rules, Caesar said to show up here, we've got our default settings, so I guess we're screwed. Bummer if you're the guy on the battlefield that has to stand in a burning campfire or on a dead horse, got to maintain that 3-6 feet or poo poo's gonna go sideways on us out here. No doubt the romans had multiple formations they’d use instead of a single canon formation, but they’d absolutely be drilling specific moves for specific situations as much as possible instead of acting on the fly. 50 people, let alone more, can’t just whip from marching column to line to testudo to wedges to making spaces for elephants to marching columns again to charging etc etc without practice, they’re going to trip over each other and die in a disorganized route because in the shared physical universe we live in, humans take up space and move in certain ways and can’t phase through eachother into the appropriate formation to counter what the enemy is trying as automatons.
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Dec 16, 2020 21:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Yeah poo poo like re-enactment and marching band can’t actually recreate the conditions of an ancient battlefield, but you seem like you have no idea how difficult it is to have a mass of people just “stand how they need to stand.” You can just yell “spread out” at a dozen people sure, but not so much when it’s 500. I'm not disputing that they drilled, or that they had multiple formations. I am disputing that unless someone told them otherwise, hundreds of Italian men would have no choice but to spread evenly out over a couple football fields worth of open space, regardless of terrain, weather, or other battlefield conditions, just because this was their default formation and for no other reason. That is a dumb idea. I dispute that.
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Dec 16, 2020 22:35
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My great great great great great great great great grea great great-uncle worked for SPQR and he said he knew a cheat code to get closer than 3 feet to another legionnaire
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Dec 16, 2020 22:48
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physeter posted:Ok, so there was a centurion at the forward corner of the cohort whose actual job it was to yell things at the first couple ranks. What is he yelling if not things like "turn left" or "spread out"? I mean it would be awesome if he was yelling things like "I miss my favorite soup!" or "Which of you cunni put olives in my socks!?", but I'm pretty sure he's is not. Or maybe he is. It is not realistic for a centurion to spend all their time and attention micromanaging the movements of 100-500 guys, compared to telling them to march in formation and yelling at individuals if they start getting out of position. You just have a problem with imagination if you think that an army filling up a football field is out-of-this world. Look at an offensive line and count how many guys there are vs. how much space they take up. The football players are actually a decent stand in for melee infantry comparison, because the players also need around 3 feet of space around them so they can sprint or tackle or otherwise move around with force. 
Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 01:56
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I have noticed the tackles standing higher
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Dec 17, 2020 02:15
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physeter posted:Ok, so there was a centurion at the forward corner of the cohort whose actual job it was to yell things at the first couple ranks. What is he yelling if not things like "turn left" or "spread out"? I mean it would be awesome if he was yelling things like "I miss my favorite soup!" or "Which of you cunni put olives in my socks!?", but I'm pretty sure he's is not. Or maybe he is. You ever been in a formation?
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Dec 17, 2020 02:34
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downout posted:You ever been in a formation? I was going to say, close order drill is mainly used for ceremony, discipline, and learning to follow orders, but up until recently it was a very real thing on the battlefield.
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Dec 17, 2020 02:51
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I think Cessena has posted in the MilHist thread about how armies today are debating getting rid of close order drill altogether for the reasons it's obsolete on the nodern battlefield, but even then it's got the benefits you mentioned.
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Dec 17, 2020 11:14
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Lol nobody’s getting rid of drilling. You can’t have your soldiers and sailors standing around like a bag of dicks when the generals visit.
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Dec 17, 2020 11:49
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Crosspost FAUXTON posted:look it's one legion okay? By the way, the Rubicon? They were making it up to be this big thing, 'you cannot cross the rubicon with an army' have you seen it folks? It's a puddle, you can't even really tell you've crossed it even, I mean the only way you know you're out of gallia cisalpina there is that you walk into Rimini, so I don't think the senate really gets around much outside Rome. But we'll see what happens, won't we folks? I mean it's a roll of the dice really, These losers in the senate expect me to just leave all these big beautiful legions, and we love our troops folks, we really do, don't we love the troops? They're wonderful, but these old guys in Rome, i call them the sleepy senate, you'd never believe how low energy they are, especially Cato, right? I call him Mister Serious, Mister Serious Cato, but that sister of his is a beautiful woman, she really is, and Serious knows that, so I can't be too hard on him, anyway, they wanted me to come back alone, and believe me, I wouldn't have any trouble handling walking back to Rome myself but think about it folks, we take care of all of Gaul up there and then they just want me to leave the troops at the river after all we did for the big beautiful republic, so I brought back just the one legion, you know, to give them a heroes welcome at the gates because really Rome wasn't doing so hot when I left but now I come back from winning Gaul, they said it Gaul could never be pacified, but maybe they just weren't as good as me, you know? They had to beg and plead with brennus, tears in their eyes, to spare Rome but now I come back and they're saying "magna roma" again and i don't think anyone was saying that before, but they didn't bring vercingetorix back from alesia, nobody builds a wall like I do but they don't tell you i built two walls, they thought one wall was enough but I knew this vercingetorix was a tough guy, really big with the gauls and I said "we need another wall to be sure, he's a big guy around here and we should do two walls" so we did two walls and now he's a prisoner, but they won't let me bring the troops home even though I made rome great again and we won in gaul and we won in iberia and we won in brittania and now they say we can't win in rome, folks do you think we should go win in rome, yeah I think we deserve to win in rome so why the hell not, like I said let's just roll the dice and see what happens
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Dec 17, 2020 19:25
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Benagain posted:Crosspost At least we know Caesar knew what a book is.
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Dec 18, 2020 08:32
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LingcodKilla posted:Lol nobody’s getting rid of drilling. You can’t have your soldiers and sailors standing around like a bag of dicks when the generals visit. 'sup Sir?
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Dec 18, 2020 13:55
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.