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Fury is, in a screenplay-construction sense, the protagonist in Avengers* , so it would be a pretty different movie in that case. AoU is textbook "less than the sum of its parts". There's good stuff in it but it doesn't hang together. It's also the film where the "everyone quips too much" complaint is actually accurate; everyone's dropping one-liners to the point that the conversations don't even flow or make sense. *The entire premise of Avengers is that Loki and the Chitauri are clownishly outmatched once Earth's superheroes actually work together; the challenge is whether or not Fury can actually get them to do so, and hold off the weird nuclear weapon illuminati long enough for the heroes to succeed. It's a pretty weird approach.
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Dec 24, 2020 18:58
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Should have been Cookson, except then Loki would have won E: how is Coulson not recognized by autocorrect but Cookson is?? Opopanax fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Dec 24, 2020 |
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Dec 24, 2020 19:03
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Volstagg cookson
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Dec 24, 2020 19:06
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I don't really mind the idea of Hawkeye in the Avengers. I actually think the MCU sets it up way more rationally then it could be. The Avengers are a loose collection of hard to control super beings brought together by a government organization. Widow and Hawkeye are the company spies put in place to try and maintain control. Its more pronounced with Widow because she's more impressive and she has direct influence on the freaks. Hawkeye's more of a security guy. But Avengers basically has him be the guy who gets grabbed by Loki and then gets roped into the gang because of everything that happens and his connection to Widow. And Age of Ultron basically goes "he's part of the team but also why and lets flesh him out as the most stable and sympathetic person of the group." And then Endgame takes him dark because he had more to lose than anyone. I'm pretty ok with MCU Hawkeye. I think he serves a purpose.
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Dec 24, 2020 19:13
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SlimGoodbody posted:What the gently caress, where do you live dude At that time, the wonderful city of Fayetteville, North Carolina. Those familiar with Fayetteville will read this, nod, and say "oh, okay" Open Marriage Night posted:My most prominent memory from the Joker movie was someone’s baby crying in the front row. My most prominent memory of Bad Santa was the woman who brought five children under 10 in
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Dec 24, 2020 19:18
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AoU is definitely one of the weakest Marvel movie, however I feel it's a good example of one of thw big things that Marvel does right. If it were a Star Wars or a DCEU movie, they would have tried to "fix" it by firing Joss Wheedon and bringing on on somebody else to reshoot much of the movie resulting in some kind of awkward Frankensteinian flick like Justice Leauge or Rise of Skywalker. Instead it was released warts and all and it think it's better for it.
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Dec 24, 2020 23:46
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Hawkeye appears in the Marvel movies whenever the scriptwriters thought that the movies was getting too much fun to watch.
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Dec 24, 2020 23:55
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I think its also a positive byproduct of the "formula." Like someone might might make a bad version of the formula and they might make a good one but if they're sticking to the same basic formula its still something digestible. That might stifle those looking for something very different but it keeps anything from getting too far into the weeds.
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Dec 25, 2020 00:07
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There's a few hints of Hawkeye being Hawkeye from the comics in AoU, i.e., the guy who knows he's in a funny suit shooting arrows at gods and monsters but does it anyway because that's how he can help but we don't get much of it and also Renner's not really the right person for the job. (Alan Tudyk, maybe.)
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Dec 25, 2020 00:26
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David D. Davidson posted:AoU is definitely one of the weakest Marvel movie, however I feel it's a good example of one of thw big things that Marvel does right. If it were a Star Wars or a DCEU movie, they would have tried to "fix" it by firing Joss Wheedon and bringing on on somebody else to reshoot much of the movie resulting in some kind of awkward Frankensteinian flick like Justice Leauge or Rise of Skywalker. Instead it was released warts and all and it think it's better for it. Except they've done exactly what you've said.
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Dec 25, 2020 00:29
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Yeah other than the actual firing that's exactly what happened to AoU.Dawgstar posted:There's a few hints of Hawkeye being Hawkeye from the comics in AoU, i.e., the guy who knows he's in a funny suit shooting arrows at gods and monsters but does it anyway because that's how he can help but we don't get much of it and also Renner's not really the right person for the job. (Alan Tudyk, maybe.) Hawkeye isn't usually self aware.
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Dec 25, 2020 00:34
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Yeah Hawkeye from the comics is the guy who mouths off to Thanos even if he's tied up and has no awareness of how stupid that is.
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Dec 25, 2020 00:42
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Isn't Hawkeye's comic entrance to the Avengers that he tried to rob them and got his rear end kicked by the security system or something?
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Dec 25, 2020 00:49
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah other than the actual firing that's exactly what happened to AoU. He kinda knows that he's outmatched. But he doesn't really care about that and does his thing anyway. And that's why I like him and Kate.
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Dec 25, 2020 01:31
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STAC Goat posted:Isn't Hawkeye's comic entrance to the Avengers that he tried to rob them and got his rear end kicked by the security system or something? Hawkeye breaks into the mansion and beats up all the Avengers to prove he should be on the team
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Dec 25, 2020 02:38
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Blockhouse posted:Hawkeye breaks into the mansion and beats up all the Avengers to prove he should be on the team No he breaks into the mansion, ties up their butler and then frees him by firing three arrows at once. Upon seeing this Cap is like "you've got the job*!" *= Also all the other Avengers had literally quit before this and Cap needed to be a part of something as he had only recently woken up from being on ice.
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Dec 25, 2020 11:52
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The Question IRL posted:*= Also all the other Avengers had literally quit before this and Cap needed to be a part of something as he had only recently woken up from being on ice. It's neat that Cap decided to re-form the Avengers with what amounted to three criminals, which serves as a (distant) callback when Hawkeye took over the Thunderbolts as he wanted to give them the same chance Cap gave him.
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Dec 25, 2020 17:18
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Just a half hour until Wonder Woman drops on HBO Max.
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Dec 25, 2020 17:30
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Dawgstar posted:It's neat that Cap decided to re-form the Avengers with what amounted to three criminals, which serves as a (distant) callback when Hawkeye took over the Thunderbolts as he wanted to give them the same chance Cap gave him. It's kind of frustrating that 30 years of Hawkeye being a competent hero and leader was thrown out the window so people can make stupid and unfunny "worst Hawkeye" jokes.
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Dec 25, 2020 17:34
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He was always bad Green Arrow.
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Dec 25, 2020 17:48
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Rhyno posted:It's kind of frustrating that 30 years of Hawkeye being a competent hero and leader was thrown out the window so people can make stupid and unfunny "worst Hawkeye" jokes. Hawkeye has always been both a very good hero and a garbage fire of an individual. The Fraction run plays up the latter but also goes out of its way to show the former is true.
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Dec 25, 2020 17:56
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STAC Goat posted:Isn't Hawkeye's comic entrance to the Avengers that he tried to rob them and got his rear end kicked by the security system or something? This was how Spidey tried to join the Fantastic Four I'm pretty sure.
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Dec 25, 2020 18:50
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Aphrodite posted:He was always bad Green Arrow. I think this means you have to fight Kurt Busiek now (based entirely on JLA/Avengers, I get the impression he's a Hawkeye guy).
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Dec 25, 2020 20:23
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Rhyno posted:It's kind of frustrating that 30 years of Hawkeye being a competent hero and leader was thrown out the window so people can make stupid and unfunny "worst Hawkeye" jokes. Hawkguy? Competent?
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Dec 25, 2020 21:21
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He was never written as the door screw-up Fraction wrote. He lead multiple Avengers teams and the TBolts. Don't get me wrong, I love the Fraction series but it's a big departure from the character.
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Dec 25, 2020 21:39
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WW84 is okay. Not sure if it will be something I revisit considering how long it is (2 1/2 hours which it doesn't really feel like it earns.) Pedro Pascal as Max Lord is pretty good but Kristen Wiig's heel turn feels unearned seeing as she spends almost the entire movie helping Diana. There's an extra mid credits scene but nothing at the very end. One thing I did like was that the climax doesn't involve Diana beating up Max, instead she talks him down. Which you don't see enough of in these kind of stories.
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Dec 25, 2020 21:51
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There's a scene in Diana's apartment showing off her various mementos and it includes a picture of her helping liberate a concentration camp so they did think to address the idea that she just ignored problems until BvS.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:02
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muscles like this! posted:There's a scene in Diana's apartment showing off her various mementos and it includes a picture of her helping liberate a concentration camp so they did think to address the idea that she just ignored problems until BvS. Honestly WW84 makes literally zero sense with the idea of WW as presented in BvS. She literally spoke to the entire world and prevented nuclear Armageddon. She ain't a loving secret.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:09
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ImpAtom posted:Honestly WW84 makes literally zero sense with the idea of WW as presented in BvS. I think you're supposed to accept the fig leaf that her actions are technically secret because there's no footage of her out there doing stuff. Like in the beginning they show her breaking security cameras and for the end nobody actually sees her, they just hear her voice, I guess? That part is a little unclear seeing as it shouldn't have been working anyway since it was just Max standing in a beam of light.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:30
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I hear the movie is dog poo poo.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:37
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Open Marriage Night posted:Hawkguy? Competent? This is literally what Rhyno was complaining about!! 
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Dec 25, 2020 22:42
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Rhyno posted:It's kind of frustrating that 30 years of Hawkeye being a competent hero and leader was thrown out the window so people can make stupid and unfunny "worst Hawkeye" jokes. Listen, Aja drew Kate Bishop with round sunglasses one time so now she's a e s t h e t i c and that's more important than 30 years of some of the most interesting comics ever written.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:48
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Lurdiak posted:I hear the movie is dog poo poo. It ain’t great that’s for sure. At best it’s ok and too long.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:51
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ImpAtom posted:Honestly WW84 makes literally zero sense with the idea of WW as presented in BvS. Not having seen WW84 yet I thought WW already directly contradicted BvS. Like the idea that Diana abandoned the world after WW1 was a pretty crappy idea and the ending of WW directly contradicts it in message if not direct actions. I don't blame Jenkins for that because how could you not? How do you make her even remotely likable if she just decides to do nothing for 100 years? It seems like all you can really do is ignore it or else you let that one supporting role intro really handicap her entire character.
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Dec 25, 2020 23:06
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WW1984: Having the first non-white characters wishes be ethnic cleansing and nuclear weapons was certaintly a choice. Admittedly they later have the Soviets/US leaders launch nukes but the film gives the context of that being result of the increasingly crazy situation in the middle east/world. In theory having stuff like the Irish deportation scene could of made it more palatable, but it still left a very bitter taste in my mouth. Also I can't believe we're still doing 'slap glasses on an objectively attrative actress and make the character a clutz = nerd' in the year 2020 JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 23:18
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STAC Goat posted:Not having seen WW84 yet I thought WW already directly contradicted BvS. Like the idea that Diana abandoned the world after WW1 was a pretty crappy idea and the ending of WW directly contradicts it in message if not direct actions. I don't blame Jenkins for that because how could you not? How do you make her even remotely likable if she just decides to do nothing for 100 years? It seems like all you can really do is ignore it or else you let that one supporting role intro really handicap her entire character. It's true but you'd figure they would at least, I donno, have her saving the world in magicland or something instead of just "Hell if I know." It was also amusing seeing both Zach Snyder and Geoff Johns credited because I can't imagine two people who probably hate each other more.
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Dec 25, 2020 23:27
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Hawkeye has always been considered a punchline, even when depicted as competent. Like Aquaman. It wasn't like Fraction just invented that entire thing. ImpAtom posted:Honestly WW84 makes literally zero sense with the idea of WW as presented in BvS. The first Wonder Woman is considered to have retconned the stuff from BvS already. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 23:29
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Aphrodite posted:Hawkeye has always been considered a punchline, even when depicted as competent. The first one retconned it but at least kept it in somewhere the same time zone of "Oh, maybe she just wasn't as public, there are some differences but you can kiiiinda fudge it" instead of, y'know, Bruce Wayne and noted paranoid dude being utterly shocked there is a super strong incredibly powerful superbeing who once saved the world from near-total annihilations during a time period where he would have been a child and most likely would have had his parents alive again for like 10 minutes. Feels like the kind of thing he wouldn't have forgotten.
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Dec 25, 2020 23:43
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I dunno. I guess I think the BvS thing is just so bad and handicapping that its not worth working around. The answer to why it doesn't match up should just be "because that was a dumb idea that kind of ruined the character so we're ignoring it."
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Dec 26, 2020 00:03
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WW84 is terrible.
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Dec 26, 2020 00:39
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