|
Famethrowa posted:they had one outstanding writer, and a handful of pretty good ones, and they built up goodwill by writing seemingly "progressive" articles. This is annoyingly common and its really giving people a ton of ammo to just assume anyone being progressive with a blog/news job is a shitter using it as cover. VostokProgram posted:Yeah, people who have done wrong but just happen to be "woke" always use the specter of "bad guys" as why you shouldn't criticize them. Or at least their apologists will. Yup, this is bullshit and i'm getting real tired of it. Worth reminding people that hey, two groups of people can be bad. It's not "one is good and the other is not". If someone is doing lovely things you call them the gently caress out
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 14:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 19:12 |
|
|
hazardousmouse posted:A small personal aside. I've been using "later gators!" as a goodbye for decades. Please don't ruin this by forging associations with GG assholes. As a southerner we'd probably think it refered to actual alligators instead of the terminally online
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 15:07
|
|
|
hazardousmouse posted:A small personal aside. I've been using "later gators!" as a goodbye for decades. Please don't ruin this by forging associations with GG assholes. Switch to "Not if I see you first". Also available: "After awhile, crocodile."
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 17:05
|
|
|
It's a call and respond for the cool and hip, man! If the respondent is savvy enough they'll reply with "'while crocodile" to match the shortened phrase and syllables! As for the subject matter, just like so much else nowadays this poo poo got reductive with team sports mentality. Peoples keep trying to justify behavior because a shitbird was on your side for an unrelated matter so they feel bad calling out the shitbird when they show their true colors. I love this jumble of mixed metaphors.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 18:13
|
|
|
One of my favorite accounts on twitter is Daily Gators, a literal alligator enthusiast. It rules
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
Who are the industry people defending Cecilia? I only saw Brianna wu but she’s an idiot. Or are these people talking about it without directly naming her? I kinda wanna know who these people are so I don’t go promoting them or posting their tweets or something.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Vahn16/status/1346197501926379524?s=20 https://twitter.com/annamerlan/status/1346175764517982209?s=20 Go through the quote tweets there's a few more. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jan 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
dogstile posted:This is annoyingly common and its really giving people a ton of ammo to just assume anyone being progressive with a blog/news job is a shitter using it as cover. So point out some that aren't.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 20:26
|
|
|
John_A_Tallon posted:So point out some that aren't. thought slime seems pretty cool
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
Is this going to turn into "I bet THIS person I don't know isn't a sex pest" because it's happened before and it's extremely pointless.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 21:27
|
|
|
Studio posted:Is this going to turn into "I bet THIS person I don't know isn't a sex pest" because it's happened before and it's extremely pointless.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 23:27
|
|
|
Quoting an old Endorph post that I think succinctly puts where discussion in this thread should be, at minimum:Endorph posted:this thread should be about discussing stuff that's actually happened and how to react to it, and how to tackle the problem of sexual abuse in the industry and fandom in general, not patting yourself on the back for liking the 'right' people or whatever. Especially when your evidence that these are good people to like has nothing to do with them helping victims of this stuff or whatever, and just them tweeting vaguely leftist politics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
Hub Cat posted:https://twitter.com/Vahn16/status/1346197501926379524?s=20 whats "funny" is D'Anastasio could spin this as a victim and not look like an rear end in a top hat. all she has to say is that she is sorry that she hurt the victim and ignored their wishes and that she published the stuff the way she did because she thought it would hurt a monster worse and help the victim. instead it "they are lying" or "they are ignoring context". https://twitter.com/Vahn16/status/1346198749471776769 loving lol.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
the defense of lovely behavior being "she could've done it with way less effort so I don't think she did it" is a wild take I admit
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 00:10
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/austin_walker/status/1346586121166348288 https://twitter.com/austin_walker/status/1346586463325057025
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 00:46
|
|
|
New Super Metis posted:https://twitter.com/austin_walker/status/1346586121166348288 once again austin shows he gets it and one of the few who does in the critic field.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 00:54
|
|
|
walker fucks up a ton (nines force femme fanfic, the red string poo poo, both those happened on his watch) but im glad he got it right here, at least
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 00:57
|
|
|
Endorph posted:austin fucks up a ton but im glad he got it right here, at least very true.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 00:57
|
|
|
Endorph posted:walker fucks up a ton (nines force femme fanfic, the red string poo poo, both those happened on his watch) but im glad he got it right here, at least And, if I'm not mistaken, Patrick's article about one of these scandals that was pretty lovely.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 01:12
|
|
|
graventy posted:And, if I'm not mistaken, Patrick's article about one of these scandals that was pretty lovely. Yes, it was the one with the NeoGAF guy. On the podcast accompanying the article he discusses the abuse survivor's sexual and relationship history for no reason and then also discusses how he got her to speak on record by saying that they were going to run the article with the GAF guy's statement and it was up to her if she wanted to present the other side. He framed it as feeling bad that he put pressure on a source in service of "the truth"
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 01:24
|
|
|
His comment about "closing the ranks" hits pretty hard because its the exact same mentality that creates these cases in the first place. Many of these games journos posting are clearly saying "well I haven't looked into it but I believe my peer" which is pretty reprehensible from a basic journalism ethics standpoint. It's not even like theres lack of evidence or ambiguity, she is more or less proud of what she did and is dismissing the feelings of an abuse victim.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 02:04
|
|
|
pentyne posted:the defense of lovely behavior being "she could've done it with way less effort so I don't think she did it" is a wild take I admit It completely ignores the sunk cost fallacy too. Maybe she didn't set out to make something exploitative for the sake of clickbait, but at some point in the creation process she (and her editor) would have realized she was making something exploitative and could have chosen to let the sunk cost of her efforts toward an unethical product simply be a lost cost of doing business. Instead they leaned into it and ran with it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 03:19
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yes, it was the one with the NeoGAF guy. On the podcast accompanying the article he discusses the abuse survivor's sexual and relationship history for no reason and then also discusses how he got her to speak on record by saying that they were going to run the article with the GAF guy's statement and it was up to her if she wanted to present the other side. He framed it as feeling bad that he put pressure on a source in service of "the truth" pentyne posted:His comment about "closing the ranks" hits pretty hard because its the exact same mentality that creates these cases in the first place. its a mix of "i believe my peer" and "if we let them fall than gamergate will win/come back" depending on the person being critque and the defender/etc. CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yes, it was the one with the NeoGAF guy. On the podcast accompanying the article he discusses the abuse survivor's sexual and relationship history for no reason and then also discusses how he got her to speak on record by saying that they were going to run the article with the GAF guy's statement and it was up to her if she wanted to present the other side. He framed it as feeling bad that he put pressure on a source in service of "the truth" Patrick was a big neogaf poster and back then Neogaf was the big citadel of progressive politics , so to patrick, the sacrafice was probably worth it. that was until the guy basicaly through open the doors and let every chud and channer on. now its ok to hate that creepy gently caress. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Jan 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 07:42
|
|
|
Endorph posted:my favorite youtubers are definitely moral arbiters and i look better when i mention them I thought it was nice Nitro Rad took down his video praising Heartbeat when the dev's girlfriend started going on about 41% and then the dev supported it. Endorph posted:(nines force femme fanfic, the red string poo poo, both those happened on his watch) Dare I ask what you mean by that?
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 08:57
|
|
|
Acerbatus posted:Dare I ask what you mean by that? https://medium.com/@Error52/waypoint-please-stop-stepping-on-rakes-a652f230e210 This goes over both of those uh, things.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:03
|
|
|
That's in reference to two articles Waypoint, the Vice games news site Austin edited published. One was a 9S force femme fanfic. Many people thought this was a strange thing to publish on a news website! The second was criticism of the game Red Strings Club for featuring deadnaming of a trans character within the narrative, despite the fact that one of the creators of the game is trans herself and she thought it was a justified moment in the story. https://twitter.com/thefingerspit/status/955861193696202752 This is a tweet thread she made at the time. The reviewer and waypoint editorial did not take this criticism well IIRC. edit: oh beaten to it, and that's a very good essay on it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:08
|
|
|
Not really in the same ballpark at all but the "Monster Hunter is colonialism" thing was really weird too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:11
|
|
|
kirbysuperstar posted:https://medium.com/@Error52/waypoint-please-stop-stepping-on-rakes-a652f230e210 I don't really get the red string thing but who the hell thought that fanfic thing was a good idea 
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:20
|
|
|
The redstrings thing is just an example of that poisonous "woke" mentality that depiction is endorsement and that you can't show any sort of bad or morally grey thing since people might think its good, or whatever. Its stupid.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:22
|
|
|
kirbysuperstar posted:Not really in the same ballpark at all but the "Monster Hunter is colonialism" thing was really weird too. There's a good line about how trans and queer creators are worried about using elements of their personal struggles in developing something for fear of being accused of x-phobia over it. Waypoint's examples listed in that medium article really feel like trying to speed run their woke credentials. Acerbatus posted:I don't really get the red string thing but who the hell thought that fanfic thing was a good idea The stated intention, create fictional situations to discuss overtly sexualized video game characters is a good one but not in the sense of it being some extreme fetish poo poo. All satire walks a fine line but that reads like it might've been actual fanfic they figured they could dress up as social commentary just by putting it on a news website. Ibram Gaunt posted:The redstrings thing is just an example of that poisonous "woke" mentality that depiction is endorsement and that you can't show any sort of bad or morally grey thing since people might think its good, or whatever. Its stupid. It's a problem because good faith arguments are viable until you dig into someone's public posting find what they really think. Doorkickers 2 had the word "haji" inscribed on a weapon and argued that it's period accurate to the early 2000s war on terror. While not technically wrong, the same people who put that in the game also say some pretty gross stuff about Islam in general in public postings, so historically accurate or not its definitely done in a mean spirit. pentyne fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jan 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:33
|
|
|
pentyne posted:
The fanfic was part of their attempt with their End of Year event to do something different from typical game of the year coverage, which is something they tried to do for their first few years. In this case it was the idea of trying to center fanfiction as a legitimate form of discourse and creativity regarding games, somewhat like how literary journals or magazines could have both nonfiction and fiction works on topics together. The problem they ran into is exactly what Austin Walker hinted at in the above twitter thread: editorial (including him) was stretched too thin that they didn't vet or pay close enough attention to works that would have issues when published
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 09:44
|
|
|
Endorph posted:cecilia d'anastasio posted this victim blaming, back-patting bullshit about the time she outright lied to a victim of sex abuse to get a good story, and ofc theres a ton of game journos and kotaku people circling the wagons. Yeah, it's not surprising. The scene is insanely cliquey and once you're in, you can do hosed up things and still find people willing to go to bat for you. In last year's big #MeToo push a guy I kind of know from the European indie dev scene was called out on his hosed up poo poo, and before I cut him out of my life (and let him know why) a bunch of people who REALLY SHOULD KNOW BETTER came out to speak up for him, to make excuses for him, and to kind of victim blame albeit in guarded terms. It's absolutely sickening because these same scenes make a big deal of believing the victims and presenting a progressive, open and welcoming front.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 10:53
|
|
|
Shaman Tank Spec posted:Yeah, it's not surprising. The scene is insanely cliquey and once you're in, you can do hosed up things and still find people willing to go to bat for you. Is there anything to be done besides name and shame until they're too toxic for advertisers and distributors to work with?
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 12:42
|
|
|
I'm an out of touch old person who doesn't use Twitter but I do catch every single episode of Waypoints and article on Vice gaming. Are there other similar "progressive" or "leftist" gaming podcasts I should check out? I know this isn't a podcast thread but I specifically ask here because I wouldn't have known about the push back in this content if I hadn't seen it here, maybe another podcast would give me a bit more perspective.
Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jan 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 12:48
|
|
|
John_A_Tallon posted:Is there anything to be done besides name and shame until they're too toxic for advertisers and distributors to work with? Given that that outcome is often best-case scenario, I think the answer is 'probably not'.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 12:56
|
|
|
Jack B Nimble posted:I'm an out of touch old person who doesn't use Twitter but I do catch every single episode of Waypoints and article on Vice gaming. Are there other similar "progressive" or "leftist" gaming podcasts I should check out? I know this isn't a podcast thread but I specifically ask here because I wouldn't have known about the push back in this content if I hadn't seen it here, maybe another podcast would give me a bit more perspective. the issue is that any gaming podcast or website that spins itself as 'progressive' or 'leftist' is gonna run into the same issues waypoint did, where they work with the mentality that anything they do is progressive/leftist instead of it being a string of individual things they do that may or may not earn those titles. in an eyerolling but mostly harmless instance you wind up with articles and games that really have nothing to do with modern western politics being shoehorned into them, in a pretty bad case you wind up with massive blindspots about what sort of content exists (if you're a woke website and you don't know about it, how can it be woke?) and in the worst case scenario you wind up with the red string thing where a trans developer has their game's wikipedia page be 90% a section labelled 'controversy' about 'transphobia' because a cis person got their dander up over something they barely understand. i dont listen to many gaming podcasts so i cant give you any recs but my general advice would be to listen to a lot of stuff, read a lot of perspectives, and come to your own conclusions, rather than just going to a 'woke' website and checking out at the point they flash up the obvious signifiers of that. im not even saying waypoint is being insincere or anything but they very much have a somewhat unearned reputation and even when they take criticism well seem baffled and confused by the concept of not being the most progressive website in the world. like the 9s thing. you don't need an extensive retooling to realize maybe a fanfic where a teenage anime boy gets force-femme'd might be a weird thing to publish on a gaming website, you just need to look at the sentence '9s forcefemme fanfic.' but going by what walker said the person used the right woke language in pitching it so their guards went down completely because it was pitched wokely so how could it be Problematic? in general (not saying you here, just speaking broadly) i think both gaming journalism and people who are into it have a real issue with trying to find the one perfect website with the correct politics, or compiling a list of devs and journalists who are woke, or the best leftist youtuber, and thats what leads to stuff like the waypoint thing and, far worse than that, the d'anastasio stuff. she can't have ever done anything wrong, she's one of the Good Ones, and all thought stops there. so again, the solution broadening your palette and never taking anything for granted. 'progressive' or 'leftist' isn't some permanent state of being a person slides into, progress is something people cause through group effort and leftism is a political ideology that people can slide in and out of or not always fully live up to, or agree with some parts of but not others. Endorph fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jan 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 13:13
|
|
|
Thank you, that makes sense; I'll do my best to think critically about what I see and hear from waypoints.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 13:17
|
|
|
Jack B Nimble posted:Thank you, that makes sense; I'll do my best to think critically about what I see and hear from waypoints. yeah no worries. This is a site that hasn't been updated in nearly two years and was run by two people but they have this really good interview with a japanese trans dev, as a random example. getting pretty off topic but i like linking it as an example of the kind of stuff you can find when you hunt down way smaller websites and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 13:23
|
|
|
Dang endorph, really well explained
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 14:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 19:12 |
|
|
Nothing will change unless people are more afraid of sheltering sex criminals than they are of rocking the boat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2021 14:26
|
|
