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MiddleOne posted:Hard pass. Distance dramatically alter what kind of goods cross borders and why people do as well. The UK is too close to Ireland, France and the Netherlands to be able to arbitrarily shut borders. The consequence of France doing so last month make it clear why this wasn't done earlier. These are loving excuses not reasons. But sure, I guess there was nothing you could have done (except die in droves and spread disease).
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Jan 10, 2021 13:18
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the UK like america choose to preserve the current social and financial hierarchy rather than human lives. it was a poor choice, but they have doubled down anyway 
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Jan 10, 2021 13:23
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Rutibex posted:the UK like america choose to preserve the current social and financial hierarchy rather than human lives. it was a poor choice, but they have doubled down anyway Really, though, all it affects is tourism. Which is a big part of the economy but not that big. And international students, I guess. Freight is exempt, people in highly skilled roles (medical specialists etc) are exempt. I sincerely think the reason other countries didn't do it is really down to a failure of imagination more than anything else. It's worth noting that Australia, at least, didn't adopt an elimination strategy plus indefinitely closed borders until June. We closed the borders in March while fully expecting the virus was already here (it was) and that we'd get hammered even as we went into lockdown. But then it turned out that closed borders and a lockdown are actually a pretty good strategy for eliminating it and going back to normal life, and so after that initial crisis we made an official declaration of a strategy of "zero community transmission" (I also firmly believe they don't use the word "elimination" because they want to distinguish themselves from pop star PM Ardern, who went for "elimination" from the start) and those borders are staying shut for the foreseeable future. I sometimes wonder whether the PM regrets those early decisions and would rather be going down a UK/US road, but while he's in the right-wing party he's not really a Johnson-style neoliberal in his heart of hearts; he's more the sort of person Johnson pretends to be, a (supposedly) humble man of the people, who's more than happy to capitalise on the unexpectedly good results of results of having pulled up the rope ladder very early on, since it had undeniably good results and therefore played well with the voters.
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Jan 10, 2021 13:57
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lmao i'm pretty sure absolutely nobody regrets not being in the USA or UK right about now
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Jan 10, 2021 14:00
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Pryor on Fire posted:lmao i'm pretty sure absolutely nobody regrets not being in the USA or UK right about now Maybe not being in but the NASDAQ outperformed the ASX 200 in 2020 so yeah there are a lot of capitalist ghouls and their allies in the Australian parliament who wish we would've just let her rip
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Jan 10, 2021 14:07
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freebooter posted:Maybe not being in but the NASDAQ outperformed the ASX 200 in 2020 so yeah there are a lot of capitalist ghouls and their allies in the Australian parliament who wish we would've just let her rip Holy poo poo this idiotic. The economic cost of COVID in AUS is a number that might actually be calculated. The economic implications of a year long pandemic now spiraling even more wildly out of control with the looming spectre of all the long term health costs and loving deaths is an unknown and enormous expense. You're loving nuts to look at todays indexes and judge the utility of pandemic responses from that, what the gently caress?
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Jan 10, 2021 15:04
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Blitter posted:You're loving nuts to look at todays indexes and judge the utility of pandemic responses from that, what the gently caress? There is people in business community making these arguments. It's incredibly stupid for the reasons you point out, but for some people literally it's only the money numbers going up that matter.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:11
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Blitter posted:These are loving excuses not reasons. Hey, I'm just pointing out that it's delusional to go "beep boop, UK and Aus are both on islands therefore they are identical" and conclude that they hade the same stakes, challenges and options. Australia is one of the most remote countries on the planet, the UK is not.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:24
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dr_rat posted:There is people in business community making these arguments. It's incredibly stupid for the reasons you point out, but for some people literally it's only the money numbers going up that matter. people in "business community" can't think further ahead than the next quarter. their sick gains are all going to be for naught when the entire american empire collapses
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Jan 10, 2021 15:26
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Blitter posted:Holy poo poo this idiotic. The economic cost of COVID in AUS is a number that might actually be calculated. The economic implications of a year long pandemic now spiraling even more wildly out of control with the looming spectre of all the long term health costs and loving deaths is an unknown and enormous expense. Remember that when a person says something, it doesn't mean they personally ascribe to that PoV. They are just saying that people are making these arguments. You can't move two inches without hearing a politician talk about the economic disruption of lockdowns and how they need to be as brief as possible.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:28
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I just learned that I have the opportunity to sign up for the vaccine right now, potentially getting the shot this week. I just need to make the call. But I'm wrestling with the moral ramifications of what I feel like is jumping the queue. Our state is doing a prioritized rollout, so healthcare workers got it first and now we're in the phase where it's given to "essential" workers who sign up for it. I'm categorized as essential by the state. But about 80% of the time I can work from home and the other 20% is alongside others in an office but everyone is masked. So maybe I could stand to wait, and let the even-more-essential teachers and grocery store clerks sign up first On the other hand, those ghouls in Congress who made this pandemic as bad as it is and who keep creating superspreader events for the dumbest reasons were first in line to get vaccinated while my family has hunkered down for nearly a year. In the interest of my own health, and my family's health, I should seize the opportunity that's in front of me.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:37
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Just get the vaccine and you can do a trip report later itt if you start growing a third arm or something
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Jan 10, 2021 15:39
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MiddleOne posted:Hey, I'm just pointing out that it's delusional to go "beep boop, UK and Aus are both on islands therefore they are identical" and conclude that they hade the same stakes, challenges and options. Australia is one of the most remote countries on the planet, the UK is not. What? Did Australia become Antarctica or something (Australia is doing better than Antarctica)
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Jan 10, 2021 15:41
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Rutibex posted:their sick gains are all going to be for naught when the entire american empire collapses Look there tombs are going to be filled with all the gold they can bring to afterlife, and in the end isn't that what really matters in life?
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Jan 10, 2021 15:41
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QuarkJets posted:I just learned that I have the opportunity to sign up for the vaccine right now, potentially getting the shot this week. I just need to make the call. But I'm wrestling with the moral ramifications of what I feel like is jumping the queue. Nobody will look after you but yourself in this hellworld. Get the shot.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:42
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:What? Did Australia become Antarctica or something (Australia is doing better than Antarctica) Do you dispute that Australia is one of the most remote countries on the planet?
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Jan 10, 2021 15:43
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QuarkJets posted:I just learned that I have the opportunity to sign up for the vaccine right now, potentially getting the shot this week. I just need to make the call. But I'm wrestling with the moral ramifications of what I feel like is jumping the queue. Who gets offered the vax isn't your call to make. If they aren't yet offering it to people you think are more deserving then they still won't even if you don't take yours. Plus if you pass on this chance, they'll most likely just put you in the last group and say you had your chance and now you have to wait until Feb 2022.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:51
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MiddleOne posted:Do you dispute that Australia is one of the most remote countries on the planet? I mean we have planes now, physical distance while not entirely non-relevant isn't the be all end all. Just going by tourism numbers, Australia is about in the middle of countries world wide, being a head of countries like Sweden and Belgium: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/ST.INT.ARVL?most_recent_value_desc=true Here puts it at 40th: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/ST.INT.ARVL/rankings This doesn't include business travel and trade and what not, those numbers are a bit harder to get, but it does show there is still a lot of people normally coming and going. dr_rat fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jan 10, 2021 |
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Jan 10, 2021 15:53
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Get the vax. It may be that if it doesn’t get used soon, it’ll go to waste.
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Jan 10, 2021 15:54
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Get the vax, SmashMouth
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Jan 10, 2021 15:56
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Australia is a continent, not an island, for a variety of reasons. https://www.britannica.com/story/is-australia-an-island Air travel and international cargo shipping may be more expensive from Europe/America, but it's not like we make anything anymore here, you're closer to the worlds' manufacturers in SE Asia than any of us. Australia isn't Tristan de Cunha, Easter Island, South Ossetia, Pitcairn or even Hawaii. You're not remote, you're geographically inconvenienced. And geologically confused.
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Jan 10, 2021 16:00
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MiddleOne posted:Do you dispute that Australia is one of the most remote countries on the planet? If you're measuring by physical distance, sure. If you're measuring it by the annual volume of shipping or international travel or tourism (all the factors that impact on the spread of coronavirus) then no, it's not.
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Jan 10, 2021 16:02
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It's stupid, I'm in the same group as K-12 teachers, grocery store clerks, and people who actually maintain critical infrastructure. I don't do any of that. I could be pushed back by a month while all of the teachers queue up ahead of me and it'd be fine I've signed up, though. At least this is better than some of the horror stories of random pharmacies just giving out doses to whoever happens to be in the building
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Jan 10, 2021 16:05
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dr_rat posted:I mean we have planes now, physical distance while not entirely non-relevant isn't the be all end all. Okay so Australia has planes and is popular destination for travel, business and seasonal work, I'm glad we got that out of your system. The UK has planes, boats, trucks, cars, trains, and ferries traveling back and forth across their multiple access points to the EU. This happens because the UK is, institutionally speaking, tied to the EU from the very top. To the flow of goods of corporations to the very lives of households on both sides of the border. This happens because the UK is on very good terms (yes, even with Brexit) with its neighbors and is also geographically very close. Travel from France, Ireland or the Netherlands to the UK and vice versa is extremely frequent. Australia by comparison is an extremely remote island nation and the vast majority of its population live at the very south. Its relationship with its neighbors is nothing like the UK:s relationships with its neighbors. When it shuts its doors to the rest of the world, the consequences are very different. Snowglobe of Doom posted:If you're measuring by physical distance, sure. If you're measuring it by the annual volume of shipping or international travel or tourism (all the factors that impact on the spread of coronavirus) then no, it's not. If you don't understand the difference between a border where trucks move goods and a world-spanning sealane where cargo ships move goods then I don't know what to tell you.
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Jan 10, 2021 16:07
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Jeza posted:Remember that when a person says something, it doesn't mean they personally ascribe to that PoV. They are just saying that people are making these arguments. You can't move two inches without hearing a politician talk about the economic disruption of lockdowns and how they need to be as brief as possible. This is totally true. Sorry, that was unfairly harsh to freebooter and MiddleOne. It's just so frustrating. The correct narrative for a politician pandering to capital is at best quarter to quarter and the costs of this pandemic are well beyond that time-frame and not primarily monetary. The horror of it is that this is a believable story for anyone stable/wealthy enough off to be sufficiently isolated from the day to day awfulness of the pandemic. If the US/UK/everyone carries on with proliferating variants and failing to control this there will certainly be a financial disaster to match the human one. Even if that is somehow avoided, this is already way too loving expensive in every possible way. Holy poo poo I wish my country had "paid up front" like aus or nz.
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Jan 10, 2021 16:18
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It is utterly insane how out of control the UK numbers are and it's increasingly clear that no one in power knows what to do.
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Jan 10, 2021 16:26
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MiddleOne posted:If you don't understand the difference between a border where trucks move goods and a world-spanning sealane where cargo ships move goods then I don't know what to tell you. Testing and movement restrictions during possible contagious periods for trucks and drivers is something that can and will have to be done, but you're missing the point because it's not trade that is the primary problem with contagious disease until you have it well under control. Right now, aus and nz are in the enviable position of having it so well controlled that they only have to worry about introduced cases. The rest of the world needs to get community transmission under control, and every epidemiologist in the world can give you a list of how to meet those goals, for different types of infectious disease. Unprotected individuals in public gatherings, and local social interaction are the driving force behind the majority of transmission. B117 is going to really punish people that keep loving around during this pandemic. I mean, the UK's new cases have gone from 34K on dec 20th to 68K yesterday; 21 days. One more doubling like that and it'll be days of 9/11 deaths in the future for the UK too.
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Jan 10, 2021 16:40
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MiddleOne posted:It is utterly insane how out of control the UK numbers are and it's increasingly clear that no one in power knows what to do. They know what to do, they did it back in March and it worked, they just don't want to do it again E: The UK had 2.5 million reported infections in 2020 and they've had 0.5 million infections in 2021 so far, at that rate they'd hit 5 million by mid February. They'll no doubt hit that mark a lot earlier than that though, the average daily rate is currently skyrocketing. The US had 20.5 million cases in 2020 and they've had a little over 2 million in 2021 so far. Not as scary as the UK but still pretty hosed. Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jan 10, 2021 |
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Jan 10, 2021 16:52
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MiddleOne posted:Okay so Australia has planes and is popular destination for travel, business and seasonal work, I'm glad we got that out of your system. What type of inbread exceptionalism is this? Here's the key difference: the Australian government acted.
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Jan 10, 2021 17:10
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:What type of inbread exceptionalism is this? Sourdough inbread
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Jan 10, 2021 17:11
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:What type of inbread exceptionalism is this? Thats when, despite all odds, the kids are born with arms, legs, fingats and toes instead of flippers.
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Jan 10, 2021 17:46
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:They know what to do, they did it back in March and it worked, they just don't want to do it again Conjure summer?
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Jan 10, 2021 18:30
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MiddleOne posted:Conjure summer? Fuckin LOL The UK's covid rates are currently some of the worst in the entire world. Their per capita infections and deaths are significantly worse than the US's right now:   You keep whining about their volume of road freight compared to Australia but they're also doing worse than most landlocked countries. Their covid response is indefensible, why are you still stanning for them?
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Jan 10, 2021 18:52
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I'm saying they didn't really handle it this spring either. Most of the EU was saved by summer as fall decisively revealed. UK approach has been a disaster from the very start.
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Jan 10, 2021 18:55
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Australia's biggest outbreak was contained to only one of its states, which shares land borders with a number of the other states. All the problems that exist between European countries also existed in Australia's case, and were overcome through deliberate action by our government. If any of the claims about the inevitability of the UK's current state were true, Australia's second wave would have been country-wide and not restricted to a single state. To be clear, most of Australia wasn't even wearing masks during Victoria's lockdown. We contained it from within our borders so succussfelly that our neighbouring states were able to live almost entirely normal lives
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Jan 10, 2021 20:32
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China and Vietnam managed to get it under control despite not being islands. This whole notion that you need to be an isolated island nation to avoid the pandemic is dumb, the only consistent point of difference is the attitude and competence of the government.
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Jan 10, 2021 20:51
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gay picnic defence posted:China and Vietnam managed to get it under control despite not being islands. This whole notion that you need to be an isolated island nation to avoid the pandemic is dumb, the only consistent point of difference is the attitude and competence of the government.
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Jan 10, 2021 20:57
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England is run by fuckups and Taiwan, Vietnam, Australia, and New Zealand aren't. Its not really hard to understand and pretending that England is unique because it's too cowardly to slow down trade with its neighbors for a loving second is pretty dim.
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Jan 10, 2021 20:58
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HazCat posted:Australia's biggest outbreak was contained to only one of its states, which shares land borders with a number of the other states. All the problems that exist between European countries also existed in Australia's case, and were overcome through deliberate action by our government. If any of the claims about the inevitability of the UK's current state were true, Australia's second wave would have been country-wide and not restricted to a single state.
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Jan 10, 2021 21:09
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Buckwheat Sings posted:England is run by fuckups and Taiwan, Vietnam, Australia, and New Zealand aren't. I thought the point of brexit was to slow trade with its neighbours though..?
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Jan 10, 2021 21:10
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