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barbecue at the folks posted:This is true. It's also true that almost everyone who's not a committed leftist is just gonna think anyone that interested in Palestine is a weirdo at best and HAMAS symphatiser at worst. I hope too that the general discourse on the matter would evolve but as it stands, paying that much attention to the Palestine question has the tendency of making people unelectable. there's no law of nature saying this - in my country, pro-palestine positions are entirely acceptable within the mainstream, and this is the case in many countries. it's a battle of conviction like any other, and though those are harder in places with as dire a press as the UK it's made easier by respected human rights figures within and without israel itself calling it an apartheid regime
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Jan 22, 2021 11:09
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all this makes me think of back in the 2000s when I would tour the various basements and squats of Europe with my hardcore band, and every single one would be plastered with Palestinian flags... except in germany, where it was israeli flags
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Jan 22, 2021 11:22
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thinking back to the Berlin Radical Queer March in 2019 where the pro-Palestinian bloc (Queers For Palestine) were blocked and banned by the police, by request of the organisers themselves went along to Liebig (rip) afterwards to find out they'd cancelled the afterparty b/c why the gently caress would you label yourself as a radical queer event if you're willing to work with the cops, and nobody wanted to celebrate that anyway, Germany is fuckin weird about its support of Israel over Palestine
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Jan 22, 2021 11:48
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i mean i can think of a reason why Germans would think differently about it if you want more of a noodle scratcher, try to work out why Rangers fans are such huge fans of Israel
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Jan 22, 2021 11:59
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Venomous posted:thinking back to the Berlin Radical Queer March in 2019 where the pro-Palestinian bloc (Queers For Palestine) were blocked and banned by the police, by request of the organisers themselves I dunno, it's almost like Germany feels it needs to be suuupppeeer careful around how people think they perceive Jewish people. How weird??
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Jan 22, 2021 12:05
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imho it's a bad look to be ardent supporters of ethnostates and against letting people being genocided by said ethnostates have any sort of representation but i guess there's no parallels to be drawn to german history there
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Jan 22, 2021 12:11
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barbecue at the folks posted:This is true. It's also true that almost everyone who's not a committed leftist is just gonna think anyone that interested in Palestine is a weirdo at best and HAMAS symphatiser at worst. I hope too that the general discourse on the matter would evolve but as it stands, paying that much attention to the Palestine question has the tendency of making people unelectable. Well, once we have collected all leftwing forces in a centrally run Leninist party we can talk about enforcing message discipline on topics for short term political gain. I mean what would that look like in a real world application? Getting into endless slapfights with people passionate on the topic? Or succeeding and looking even more defeated than we are? genericnick has issued a correction as of 12:15 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 12:11
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Meanwhile, it keeps happening: https://twitter.com/BylineTV/status/1352352805273657347
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Jan 22, 2021 12:15
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nooooo my fantasieeeesss my precious, idiotic, unquestioned fantaaasiieeeeees  it's good that he admits he's hosed himself and his family though, step in the right direction
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Jan 22, 2021 12:33
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things that will not happen - the electorate learning to take some loving responsibility when making political decisions - the government being held accountable for going through with this stupid poo poo and not, for instance, making it as reversible and symbolic as possible
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Jan 22, 2021 13:07
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Kaveman posted:Is your username a joke? Yes lol it's a DE quote about how having commie thoughts doesn't make you a communist
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Jan 22, 2021 13:11
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it's becoming clear that a lot of these motherfuckers have no genuine understanding of what the EU is and could not actually describe what it's like not to be in the EU. and don't understand what is usually involved with international trade, such as prohibitively expensive paperwork and taxes and suchlike it always seemed like an insulting stereotype to sugest that the only thing they know on a subject is what their stupid newspaper says but its turning out to be right on the money
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Jan 22, 2021 13:17
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yeah uh not feeling sorry for people who voted with their racism and it has now catastrophically backfired on them.
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Jan 22, 2021 13:22
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The shitheads who got the violent wakeup call about how horribly they've been overestimating themselves are a tiny minority and the ones who'll publicly cop to having had that epiphany are a smaller minority still and while having that willingness to stand up and say loving Oops is something, it's still barely anything, and they're still shitheads
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Jan 22, 2021 13:29
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gh0stpinballa posted:replace israel with trans rights or syria or BLM and you could argue the same thing. i think "don't talk about X because people don't understand it" is goofy. I wouldn't really think Syria is an issue that's important for the British left right now either. Itts also definitely not remotely as hot button issue as Israel is for the left. This post is legit the first time I've seen a lefty talking about Syria in one or two years and absolutely no one on earth accuses lefties of being too concerned with syria. The UK is falling to bits and it would be nice for a left wing movement to focus on that instead of arguing about foreign countries in a way that makes them look insane to everyone else. Whether its possible or not, it would be nice. Trans rights and black rights aren't the same as opposing a foreign government. A left wing British government can actually help our trans people and black people in a way they can't help Palestine. Though I see the point that they are both unpopular with the transphobic racists that make up 40% of the electorate. Eh nothing is gonna change anyway and the UK left is hosed for some time. This wouldn't be the silver bullet either I just saw the outrage on twitter over the labour chief spook nobody is voting for anyway hiring an Israeli and got so so tired All our symbolic solidarity has done gently caress all for Palestine.
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Jan 22, 2021 13:38
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One saving grace is that all this stuff has been happening immediately so more people are going to make the connection that, ah, no, 'twas Brexit that hosed us.
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Jan 22, 2021 13:46
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Communist Thoughts posted:I wouldn't really think Syria is an issue that's important for the British left right now either. Itts also definitely not remotely as hot button issue as Israel is for the left. This raises an important question - how many of those who refuse to vote Labour for saying "Palestinians are people deserving of equal rights" would vote for a Labour party saying "trans rights are human rights"?
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Jan 22, 2021 13:46
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endlessmonotony posted:This raises an important question - how many of those who refuse to vote Labour for saying "Palestinians are people deserving of equal rights" would vote for a Labour party saying "trans rights are human rights"? But that's an actual relevant domestic issue worth fighting for since we can affect it. Should a British left wing party tell trans and black people in the UK yes we care about you and your suffering but we also equally care about this one very specific oppressed group 6000 miles away in a different country we have no control over. It doesn't really make it look like you have their best interests in mind if you think the two are the same. If we do all the fighting for trans rights and BLM in the UK the return we get for the cost is material and hugely impactful in the UK. If we do the same attacking Israel we still have a huge wall to climb but on the other side is... What? Flying a Palestinian flag from Westminster?
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Jan 22, 2021 14:02
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Communist Thoughts posted:I wouldn't really think Syria is an issue that's important for the British left right now either. Itts also definitely not remotely as hot button issue as Israel is for the left. Sorry but this really doesn't track at all. Like, beyond the fact that a left wing government actually could help Palestinian rights a great deal (thru recognition, cancelling of arms deals, etc), it's absolutely wrong to totally concede an issue that the right is going to bring up constantly anyway, whether you do or not. Like, imagine saying this in the 1980s but for South Africa and apartheid as a comparison; it's totally nuts. Disproportionation has issued a correction as of 14:07 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 14:04
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Communist Thoughts posted:But that's an actual relevant domestic issue worth fighting for since we can affect it. You didn't even try to address the question.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:06
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Let's just curl up into a ball and beg for the beatings to stop
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Jan 22, 2021 14:07
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multijoe posted:Let's just curl up into a ball and beg for the beatings to stop They won't.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:10
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multijoe posted:Let's just curl up into a ball and beg for the beatings to stop they will continue until morale improves.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:13
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like literally the only thing that can help the palestinians is governments
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Jan 22, 2021 14:13
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but we're only complicit and tacitly supporting apartheid outside our borders!
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Jan 22, 2021 14:19
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endlessmonotony posted:You didn't even try to address the question. I did I don't agree that it is "an important question". I don't think it's a relevant comparison tbh
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Jan 22, 2021 14:21
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multijoe posted:Let's just curl up into a ball and beg for the beatings to stop Guardianishly: This is what true leadership looks like!
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Jan 22, 2021 14:22
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Communist Thoughts posted:I did Bullshit.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:24
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endlessmonotony posted:Bullshit. Exactly
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Jan 22, 2021 14:25
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Communist Thoughts posted:Exactly You're saying "maybe we shouldn't care about the Palestinians" without even convincingly trying to pretend you have a reason to do so. If it doesn't hurt Labour in elections, why shouldn't they? And if it does hurt Labour, who are these people for trans rights but against Palestine? How much of this bullshit is just compromising on left-wing ideals to chase people who will vote Tory anyway no matter what you do? We all suspect pissflaps is Blair. Are you literally Keir?
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Jan 22, 2021 14:31
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genericnick posted:Guardianishly: This is what true leadership looks like! Real Leadership Is Offering To Hit Yourself So Your Assaulter Can Take A Break
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Jan 22, 2021 14:33
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I am a principled leftist who believes in standing against all kinds of oppression except those kinds which are a bit far away or I don't quite have all the tools I would need to help. Better not show verbal solidarity with those kinds.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:34
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endlessmonotony posted:You're saying "maybe we shouldn't care about the Palestinians" without even convincingly trying to pretend you have a reason to do so. CT is neil kinnock reincarnated
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Jan 22, 2021 14:36
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sorry that was too harsh, but imo you're mirroring a lot of the electability anxiety of the post-keynesian consensus social democrats who were, to emphasise, totally useless even when they did win elections
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Jan 22, 2021 14:38
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pull up thread
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Jan 22, 2021 14:46
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i personally do hold those beliefs and have to explain them to normies every time they come up in the news. i just think a political movement running for westminster shouldnt have it front and centre and leap into it every time its raised, as an MP looking like you care more about people from other countries than your own is poison in the UK. partly for fash reasons (which are basically mainstream now) but also just coz people do actually want their MPs to do something for them and a large amount of people in the UK do not know or care about israel. theres a lot of watching left wing parties walk directly into the beartrap laid for them and when you tell them to avoid the beartrap they stand in it and claim that this is what fighting looks like
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Jan 22, 2021 14:46
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Dravs posted:pull up thread no sorry this is the brexit thread
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Jan 22, 2021 14:47
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I think it's an expression of wooly thinking around WHY 'the people' should be behind your agenda and how you react to a massive dunking like 2019 when a shitload of people clearly aren't. If your brain isn't solidly rooted in class analysis then you're consciously or subconsciously treating the population as some blob of matrixed preferences and morals and so you operate on a median voter model. If you can just increase your popularity with some particular socioeconomic group with a particular policy without losing the same amount of votes in other groups by that same policy then you can brute force your way into a winning coalition of voters. Steer clear of making any statements unless it's properly targeting a voting bloc and eventually you'll win people over even if you end up never ever making any sort of bold or proactive statements as a consequence. It's an ahistorical model of politics which ignores all the psychological factors behind how voters pick parties and cannot rehabilitate Labour in the UK.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:50
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V. Illych L. posted:sorry that was too harsh, but imo you're mirroring a lot of the electability anxiety of the post-keynesian consensus social democrats who were, to emphasise, totally useless even when they did win elections yeah i think so im not sure its even "electability" anxiety though its just displaced dread at the political state of the UK like all my old friends i see on facebook are going legit fascist without realising it. these aren't bad people they just have absolutely no understanding of politics and the left is massively losing the battle for them while youtube or wherever the hell theyr getting these ideas is effortlessly hoovering them up i dont think the pro-palestine stuff is what will make the difference, but i do think its part of the left disappearing off down its own lanes that other people don't understand and we can fight endlessly about e: and i dont include trans rights and black rights in those lanes, i think those are actually explainable to these people as to why they're important. which is why i disagreed with monotony's post Communist Thoughts has issued a correction as of 14:53 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 14:51
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OK, but how would the actual strategy be any different than what Corbyn's Labour ended up with? Specifically you have a lot of motivated and unpaid volunteers who are passionate about Palestine, that you agree with, but you let a group of hostiles comb through their social media history to figure out if they are 3% more mad than appropriate about Palestinian kids being burned to death and need to be expelled.
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Jan 22, 2021 15:06
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