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OwlFancier posted:Again though there is no reason to hold inventory in this or factorio. I haven't played satisfactory so I can't speak to that but I don't really see why it is "gamey" or in any way unbalanced because it doesn't confer any benefit? The only reason you would ever want to hold inventory is the ingame equivalent of a container port, as in the point where the giant bulk transports unload and are transferred to the smaller consumers, which is already a thing that happens IRL. Yes I understand, It's the difference between the lack of an incentive and a penalty. I just thought a penalty harsher than opportunity cost would provide some extra difficulty in an interesting way that introduces a abstracted version of an important real life constraint of logistics.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:28
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It might, I think, if storage were a significant part of the game but it isn't really, again other than the degree to which it is necessary to handle interstellar logistics. But as it stands I don't really know why they give you storage options, because there aren't really points where they are useful other than like, if you're moving to another star system and want to bring some startup supplies, in which case you put them in a box when you arrive. Oh and I guess for the first few trips where you need titanium but haven't unlocked shipping yet so you just stuff your robot pants full of it and dump it in a box when you get back.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:33
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re: storage, do people actually build it? i guess i have stuff stored in my drone stations because that's how they work, but there's more than enough storage space on belts between mines and end products. i only ever built one storage can and it was for the few stacks of titanium needed to unlock interplanetary shipping that you have to fly in manually
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Feb 2, 2021 18:35
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OwlFancier posted:It might, I think, if storage were a significant part of the game but it isn't really, again other than the degree to which it is necessary to handle interstellar logistics. In no particular order:
Basically every production line I have has a large storage as buffer for just in case whatever.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:37
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I have storage for things like belts and foundations for sure. Never enough foundation.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:38
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I didn't really do any of those until I got to T3 stuff and set up a shipping system for them so I can order them at any tower. And I wouldn't bother with that if I could use factorio "deliver this to me" logistics either. I'm also not really sure that a couple hundred items is gonna make a difference if you start deleting some of them. Oh and I guess yeah a couple of stacks of foundation I guess cos it compresses really small anyway. But I could definitely fit nearly all of my stored stuff into like, one chest, so I don't get why they let you stack millions of them on top of each other. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 18:41
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OwlFancier posted:It might, I think, if storage were a significant part of the game but it isn't really, again other than the degree to which it is necessary to handle interstellar logistics. That is a good point, in Factorio there is an incentive to build a buffer because of supply shocks caused by attacks. Theoretically it should play into layout considerations because you need enough storage to maintain stock between shipments, so how you layout your distribution network would effect the amount of inventory you have to hold.... but I'm not sure if that's really a big enough factor in the game. The only other thing is covering demand spikes from expansion, but that can be mitigated through making sure you expand your capacity in parallel with your demand.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:41
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OwlFancier posted:I didn't really do any of those until I got to T3 stuff and set up a shipping system for them so I can order them at any tower. In my main DSP save, I've made it a point to never delete anything. At 1x settings, resources are both finite and precious. Truga posted:re: storage, do people actually build it? i guess i have stuff stored in my drone stations because that's how they work, but there's more than enough storage space on belts between mines and end products. i only ever built one storage can and it was for the few stacks of titanium needed to unlock interplanetary shipping that you have to fly in manually Regarding storage, do note that in DSP, storage stacks function as a single storage. Feed items in at any level of the stack, and draw freely from any level that you keep a buffer in. Verticality is awesome.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:43
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Ambaire posted:In my main DSP save, I've made it a point to never delete anything. At 1x settings, resources are both finite and precious. How many resources do you have on new planets? I find lots with like, 5-20 mil per resource. I don't think I upped the multiplier but I don't know how to check. They are technically finite sure but there's plenty to get you to space.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:45
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There's already so much abstracted and unreal poo poo in this game that focusing on adding some realism to this one thing that isn't even that useful is weird. e: seems more like you came in here to show off your big smarty mans logistics brain
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Feb 2, 2021 18:48
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OwlFancier posted:Again though there is no reason to hold inventory in this or factorio. I guess it depends on what you mean by "hold inventory". I obviously don't store things just to store them, but I absolutely have a buffer storage chest on my science output conveyors so that while I'm researching single-color techs (or techs that aren't 1:1 ratios between the colors), I'm not wasting production. At this point I have a couple thousand or so blue science built up because I just did a string of red science-only techs, and when I swap back to a tech that requires blue I'll be able to dump those in short order rather than waiting for my matrix labs to produce the same number of cubes. I do similar things with building automation; I shove the output of my mk1 sorters into a two-stack chest with a total of five slots active between the two, and route out a conveyor from the upper chest to supply mk2 sorter production. That lets me keep a supply of mk1s on-hand (they have a reduced power cost, so there's no reason to use higher-tier sorters if mk1s will do the job) while maintaining production of the higher-tier sorters.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:57
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Specifically as far as sorters go I believe that the power cost is during operation so if the T3 sorter operates faster than the T1 sorter then the power draw will be equivalent, drawing more power for a shorter period of time. Also the T3 sorter can pick up multiple objects at once for no extra power draw. Other than production cost there is no reason to use T1 sorters over T3.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:00
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RandomBlue posted:There's already so much abstracted and unreal poo poo in this game that focusing on adding some realism to this one thing that isn't even that useful is weird. Just got home from my real life factory planning job, better crack into Factorio and relax....wait a minute, this isn't realistic AT ALL!!!
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Feb 2, 2021 19:06
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Man...I'm finally free of the "new shiny thing" curse. I'm free of this game giving me horrible insomnia. I mean I'm currently having insomnia but that's normal "Night shift worker wakes up mid-day all frustrated" insomnia and not because ideas and schematics for this game are running through my head like the last week and whatever. ...I'm half tempted to spin up a third round of this wonderful, addicting game using what I've learned already. 
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Feb 2, 2021 19:12
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OwlFancier posted:Specifically as far as sorters go I believe that the power cost is during operation so if the T3 sorter operates faster than the T1 sorter then the power draw will be equivalent, drawing more power for a shorter period of time. Also the T3 sorter can pick up multiple objects at once for no extra power draw. Other than production cost there is no reason to use T1 sorters over T3. That's fair, but there's other reasons to keep mk1 sorters around too, load balancing for example. Anyway, my point was that there are some reasons to keep storage chests around with items stockpiled.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:37
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Scaevolus posted:I really wish I had set 10x or 100x resources or used a good seed when starting. Now I'm 20 hours in and my single vein of silicon in the solar system is half depleted to 250k left after doing the purple research items. I cranked it up to infinite and I don’t regret it for a second, as the experience is much more zen like when you can set something up and know it’ll be working for you forever. Also I’m literally ripping this planet apart to enslave the sun - don’t fuckin tell me there’s only a few bags of silicon here.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:41
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Zurai posted:That's fair, but there's other reasons to keep mk1 sorters around too, load balancing for example. Anyway, my point was that there are some reasons to keep storage chests around with items stockpiled. I'm still working on some of the ratios, so having a chest of something like steel before I connect to an assembler helps out a lot. I get a couple stacks built up, and then when I grab some foundation I don't have to worry about it running out of steel while building some more but I only need to have one smelter making steel. I don't have a full chest of anything, really, but having that buffer is very helpful for things you don't need too often. I've even got one right before my labs for the science cubes that has one sorter in and one sorter out right next to each other on the same belt. For a little bit of power now I know that production won't stop and it'll always keep the belt full, at least until I have a pretty big buffer.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:45
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One thing I would like is some sort of late game mobile mining system, like a tower that just sends drones out to harvest deposits so you don't have to pipe the poo poo everywhere.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:49
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Lotta weirdly hostile reactions itt to a not so great idea
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Feb 2, 2021 19:49
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explosivo posted:Lotta weirdly hostile reactions itt to a not so great idea It's almost as if humans can get emotionally attached to games. Comparing the 'not so great idea' to suggesting killing a loved one is not so irrational as it may first appear.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:51
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I set up a buildings bus opposite my materials bus, for a one-stop shop to annex a new planet. Busses are not great in this game, but I like how they make me feel like a kid in a candy store. 
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Feb 2, 2021 19:54
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Jarmak posted:That is a good point, in Factorio there is an incentive to build a buffer because of supply shocks caused by attacks. Theoretically it should play into layout considerations because you need enough storage to maintain stock between shipments, so how you layout your distribution network would effect the amount of inventory you have to hold.... but I'm not sure if that's really a big enough factor in the game. I feel like Factorio/Satisfactory/DSP are the wrong "kind" of games for modeling logistical attrition, but tbh I have no idea what the "right" kind would be. OpenTTD maybe?? I also wonder if attrition would be any more interesting/meaningful if the numbers were simply different - like if basic belts were 600/s and everything else was based on that, or something - but I haven't put much more thought than that in (e) Ambaire posted:It's almost as if humans can get emotionally attached to games. Comparing the 'not so great idea' to suggesting killing a loved one is not so irrational as it may first appear.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:03
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So something I like about this game is that I assume the program sent out several Icarus units to build Dyson Spheres. So considering the size of the galaxy, all of our games are basically canon and we're basically working together building giant power plants hosting virtual worlds. That may or may not be shaped like Dickbutt.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:04
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Phssthpok posted:I set up a buildings bus opposite my materials bus, for a one-stop shop to annex a new planet. Yeah I’ve thought about doing this with logistics towers porting everything into one spot so I can have my manufacturing facilities wherever.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:07
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I only use storage for the factories producing stuff I want to eventually carry around myself, like foundations and conveyor belts. Everything else is supposed to be perfectly balanced, drat it. Storage for automated goods is a sign of weakness. 
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Feb 2, 2021 20:10
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Alkydere posted:So something I like about this game is that I assume the program sent out several Icarus units to build Dyson Spheres. Yeah my head cannon is that everyone is living in fully automated luxury space communism and there’s mechs that go around and build more Dyson spheres to help fuel it all. This is why my save will not be complete until I’ve enslaved every star in this cluster in the name of glorious space communism 
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Feb 2, 2021 20:13
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All right, so I'm kinda trying to figure what the best way to proceed is here. You can see most of the important parts. Left is some basic mineral production, bottom right is where titanium and silicon comes in from off world. Straight ahead is the petroleum complex that makes red/yellow science, and far right is general parts manufacturing. Over the horizon somewhere is the power plant and titanium alloy/graphene production. Problem is, the bus is all lovely level 1 conveyor belts and is going to be a pain to upgrade before they patch the game, and I feel like now that I can build logistics towers it might be better to set something up there. This is where the "gently caress it, just delete everything and start over" impulse sets in hard. It feels like trying to replace the bus with something else is not actually going to improve things without putting up a million logistics towers and building as many drones.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:32
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You don't have to replace the factory if you have interstellar logistics, you can just plug the inputs and outputs into towers and build more somewhere else.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:34
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Yeah my head cannon is that everyone is living in fully automated luxury space communism and there’s mechs that go around and build more Dyson spheres to help fuel it all. This is why my save will not be complete until I’ve enslaved every star in this cluster in the name of glorious space communism More or less how I feel. I also feel that a 32 star system is already a massively oversized game-area, let alone a 64 star one. Anyways my wishlist for DSP: -More varied start area instead of "3 planets + gas giant, you start on a moon", especially since there's so many planet types you don't see. -Blueprints, even if they're relatively small/area limited -Ability to chose the star system you start in just for the variance of bottling up red giants and such. -Have rare resources other than oil on your starter (as it's kinda required for hydrogen) and maybe Fire-Ice in your starting system. -A quick key to zoom out to star-cluster view after you zoom in on a star to inspect it. -Please let us turn off the "Research Is Too Slow" tooltip, we can already see the research icon going red when it stops! Things that will go away and I will miss them: -The endearing translation! I am sad that they will eventually fix the line about fluids being Devastated!
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Feb 2, 2021 20:36
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I unlocked the ability to warp drive yesterday and set up an outpost in a nearby system to get some of the white crystaley stuff and the purple crystaley stuff but I don't have the tech unlocked to let my logistics bots warp so nothing's being picked up yet. I saw a lot of talk about people's drones "slow boating" to the next system over to pick stuff up, if I research that tech will they immediately start trying to putter over there without a warp drive? Is there a way to make sure I don't get tons of logistics drones stuck in between systems because they didn't warp over?
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Feb 2, 2021 20:37
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Looks like your tower is in the wrong spot, since both items travel a long way before being used. (To HyperCrabTank)
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Feb 2, 2021 20:37
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Nah, travel distance is irrelevant, throughput is the only thing that matters. The reason it's where it has more to do with where it happened to be convenient since it's the only interstellar tower I have on this planet. Still trying to work out what the best way to use them is though. Seems expensive to slam down 2-3 of these in every production center compared to still keeping a central bus.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:41
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Alkydere posted:So something I like about this game is that I assume the program sent out several Icarus units to build Dyson Spheres. My head canon is we're all basically Von Neuman machines and the end game and/or excess Dyson Sphere energy is used to power the quantum entangled simulation of the next player's human intelligence that's linked to an arriving Icarus probe.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:43
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Solar panels don't deactivate during eclipses; immersion ruined.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:49
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Nah, travel distance is irrelevant, throughput is the only thing that matters. Also if it helps, remember once the stuff is on planet you can use the regular relatively cheap towers to distribute them further. They only require shuttles, but only have three item slots.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:54
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mrmcd posted:My head canon is we're all basically Von Neuman machines and the end game and/or excess Dyson Sphere energy is used to power the quantum entangled simulation of the next player's human intelligence that's linked to an arriving Icarus probe. the one lore-thing I wondered is why the hell the first research of a mecha-building civilization is Electromagnetism Then I realized the fuckers have been in Second Life 6 for so long that they literally have to figure out real-world physics again with the help of their computer 
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Feb 2, 2021 20:56
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Alkydere posted:Things that will go away and I will miss them: I will be devastated to see it go.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:56
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Ciaphas posted:the one lore-thing I wondered is why the hell the first research of a mecha-building civilization is Electromagnetism My understanding is that you're not "researching" you're decrypting data about the topic being beamed in from the mech's origin.
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Feb 2, 2021 21:02
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Ciaphas posted:I feel like Factorio/Satisfactory/DSP are the wrong "kind" of games for modeling logistical attrition, but tbh I have no idea what the "right" kind would be. OpenTTD maybe?? In some ways it sounds like Oxygen Not Included, where the player does have to plan around storing things like food (mitigating spoilage) or liquid hydrogen/oxygen (insulation), or the upkeep of industrial processes like counterflow heat exchangers. Someone earlier made a joke about "using every part of the splitter" and that's actually a pretty apt description of how the game plays, in that every kilogram of matter and every joule of energy needs to be balanced somewhere for your ant farm to be sustainable. The key differences are that 1. Unlike Factorio, Satisfactory, and DSP, ONI is designed around these principles, and has a number of mechanics like monitoring and automation for interacting with them. ONI is also much smaller scale: a base using four oil wells, one petroleum boiler, and four plastic presses would be considered to have endgame-level production. 2. Storage issues in ONI are tied to specific material interactions. Food spoils in conditions that can grow bacteria, hydrogen boils, heat spreads, but just like in real life iron ore in a vacuum or under inert gas will remain iron ore until something comes along and acts on it to make it not iron ore
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Feb 2, 2021 21:08
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Microcline posted:In some ways it sounds like Oxygen Not Included, where the player does have to plan around storing things like food (mitigating spoilage) or liquid hydrogen/oxygen (insulation), or the upkeep of industrial processes like counterflow heat exchangers. Someone earlier made a joke about "using every part of the splitter" and that's actually a pretty apt description of how the game plays, in that every kilogram of matter and every joule of energy needs to be balanced somewhere for your ant farm to be sustainable. That sounds like something that might be my jam, I'll have to check it out. To your second point, that's why I was suggesting abstracting it to a variable tied to the material. Something like iron ore might literally have a zero, whereas something with more finicky storage requirements would be higher. The idea was to abstract out generally "how much of a pain in the rear end is it to store this in a way it won't go bad" with a per-unit energy cost to store them. The attrition idea was me brainstorming a way of modeling it less abstract and I agree it would be a poor fit in retrospect. It makes much more sense to do something like that considering the scale of this game. These are the sorts of costs that individually seem negligible but aggregate to substantial burdens if you scale up without considering them. edit: There are definitely some QoL features that are desperately needed before such things were introduced for it to be not simply a source of frustration. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 21:19
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