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There was definitely a mustang somewhere in these big bike discussions
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Feb 5, 2021 15:58
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You could also pull a yammynoob and decide to ride in the opposite lane and run headfirst into a Porsche.
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Feb 5, 2021 16:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYmqZBDk_eI
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Feb 5, 2021 16:05
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I think I remember mootmoot not knowing how to turn or target fixating and ride off the side of a highway offramp.
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Feb 5, 2021 16:58
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that's why I appreciates you
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Feb 5, 2021 16:58
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FWIW, a 250 is fine for cities and states where the highways and interstates don’t go above 60. I had my first bike, a Ninja 250 with me in Texas and holy poo poo it sucked. When you have a tiny on ramp, speed limit of 70, and a bunch of aggressive drivers always doing 10 over (because Texas is so massive it takes forever to get anywhere) you’re gonna have a bad time.
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Feb 5, 2021 17:18
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Spacewhale was the Cadillac, and there was another dude who knew how to handle power because of his 400+ HP Mustang. The latter was the one who wouldn't back down on needing to upgrade from a 300 to a Ninja 650 to accelerate out of danger. Not like the Ninja 650 was a wholly unreasonable thing to get, but just would not budge from that line of reasoning. Anyhow T Zero, expand your search outside the Ninja/CBR lines a little, too. Some insurance providers just see the name and slap a sportbike premium on them. For instance, I helped a dude get his first bike years ago, a Ninja 500, which is a fantastic learner bike, it's a standard, and not at all powerful, but his yearly premium was $1400 because of the Ninja badge. For comparison, I was paying like $75/year for my XJ600, a more powerful bike with basically the same ergos but no sportbike classification. At the moment, I pay ~$130/yr for my DR650, which would also make a decent learner bike for a bigger person. HenryJLittlefinger fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 17:20
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Also what about a dual sport/supermoto? 250s all day and you sit bolt upright. Insurance is cheap as hell too.
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Feb 5, 2021 17:23
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BIG DRYWALL MAN posted:You could also pull a yammynoob and decide to ride in the opposite lane and run headfirst into a Porsche. Holy wow, I watched some videos on his channel but didn't know about this. Edit: assuming that's the person you're talking about
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Feb 5, 2021 17:29
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I was hoping someone would past that as I didn't remember the name. There was definitely someone with a modified Mustang who wanted a supersport as a first bike to accelerate out of the way. I was just arguing with a friend who doesn't ride that a high powered bike is significantly worse to learn on than a high powered car, but I won them over by telling them my true story of learning on a bike that had ~60% of the horsepower of a modern liter bike yet still wheelied when I hit a decent bump as I was just learning and had way too much weight on my wrists so the bump went through my hand and into the throttle. I knew a couple of guys in high school with ridiculous cars who managed to not crash them (including a modified grey market R34 GT-R from before the crackdown occurred), but I think very few teens who've never ridden a bike before could handle a liter bike without modern electronics.
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Feb 5, 2021 18:11
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MomJeans420 posted:but I think very few
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Feb 5, 2021 18:13
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New riders should buy liter sports bikes so that they don't have to worry about shifting, which is easily the most attention consuming part of riding for a noob. The more powerful engine and brakes will allow them to evade danger, and assuming they choose a bike without TCS and ABS they will be able to gather a finer appreciation for the motorcycle's handling characteristics before graduating to more advanced two wheeled transportation, such as wheelchairs
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Feb 5, 2021 18:18
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While we're here I might add TC is massively overrated as a safety device; a modern literbike with TC is exactly as dangerous as one without and TC never stopped anyone crashing who wasn't destined to already, regardless of the systems on the bike. Ask yourself: how many times have you nearly crashed from spinning up the back wheel vs fixating onto some object and wobbling off the road? The latter scenario + big speeds are both why they're dangerous and why being able to manage big power is basically bringing nothing to the table, because it's the stopping and turning that's hard.
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Feb 5, 2021 18:48
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:I'm not familiar with CA history but I thought that was backpanther. mootmoot was some dumbass army guy in the UK who bought a Daytona as his first bike, posted a couple of extremely lame videos of him "killing" cars (pinning the throttle at a traffic light while the Civic beside him accelerated normally, apparently unaware that he was in a race), and eventually crashed in a straight line when he failed to negotiate a gently curved highway off-ramp and went into the gravel and fell over. So mootmoot comes up mostly in the context of falling over in a straight line for no reason. E: oh yeah and he also stuck those metal spikes and skulls and poo poo all over his bike. Backpanther, forums name abunchofnumbers, was the guy who lost an arm. he had a giant terrible tattoo of a panther on his back. I can't remember exactly what bikes he owned but his first one was like a 650 twin or something, which he crashed, and everyone told him to get something smaller and learn to ride. He used the insurance money to get a bigger bike, maybe an R6, which he also crashed. Again people told him to quit loving around and stop riding if he wasn't going to take it seriously. Instead he bought an R1 or similar and got smoked at an intersection going 60+ miles an hour through downtown while wearing flip-flops and a tank top. In that accident he broke like 20 bones and died on the operating table and got an arm amputated. he got like a million dollar insurance payout which he used to buy a manual transmission Lamborghini and a bunch of slumlord apartments in San Diego. Off the top of my head the other recent notable characters were that guy who insisted that his powerful mustang meant he knew how to handle a powerful motorcycle, and another guy who upgraded from a 300 to a 650 to a f4i within like 10 weeks and then just quit posting. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 18:53
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:
The issue for me is that I live in DC where there are only a couple companies that will insure motorcycles at all, and the ones that do charge a hefty premium. I shopped around for quotes for a bunch of different bikes (Ninja 300, z400, CBR250, etc.) with Geico and the lowest I saw for basic (not comprehensive) coverage was $27 a month. I don't own a car and only have renters insurance, so few options for bundled discounts.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:28
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Since were having old posters chat where did z3n go
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Feb 5, 2021 19:35
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Slavvy posted:While we're here I might add TC is massively overrated as a safety device; a modern literbike with TC is exactly as dangerous as one without and TC never stopped anyone crashing who wasn't destined to already, regardless of the systems on the bike. This is wrong and stupid and dangerous advice. Please stop perpetuating it. Street =/= perfectly manicured track, and there are a billion times where ABS/TCS would have saved me from at least a bad day. Unless you think TCS/ABS stuff is only used for when you do an unexpected burnout it dry conditions with your mad fast crotch rocket? In that case, you'd be correct, the rider should get good and not do that. Coydog fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 19:39
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I think the point is that TC is not some magic safety net that keeps the bike upright. It won’t save you if you don’t already know how to ride. HOWEVER, and this is the important part, it WILL help out with certain wheel slippage scenarios and in general can help keep a rider upright who isnt actively trying to throw the bike down the road on its side.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:41
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only old poster I give a poo poo about is le tron fu. speedos and wheelies
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Feb 5, 2021 19:44
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Since were having old posters chat where did z3n go West coast crew keeps him locked up these days ruining perfectly good motorcycles
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Feb 5, 2021 19:44
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If nothing else ABS will give you more confidence for emergency braking and good TC may give you more confidence to take that turn faster than you had planned.Jim Silly-Balls posted:Since were having old posters chat where did z3n go I didn't know him but I have a vague memory of someone saying he had a bad crash (but was alive) and stopped riding and/or posting. I'm pretty sure I remember his name because someone had a video they posted of him blowing by them at the track and popping a wheelie as he did it, but searching your youtube favorites is pretty much impossible so I'm not going to be able to find that.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:46
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I wouldn't conflate ABS and traction control. They are two very different things. I've lost the rear wheel under power like maybe...twice? In more than 10 years of riding? Yeah yeah I'm not backing it in erryday or whatever but the point is if you ride like a normal person with an average bike you aren't likely to lose control due to engine power delivery. I agree with Slavvy that having traction control is really only going to save you if you're already pushing way harder than you should for the situation. ABS, on the other hand -- I've had two offs (once hitting a patch of gravel under braking, once where I was being a dumbass and not paying attention) where ABS absolutely would have saved it, and a couple of other scary moments where ABS would have made it unmemorable. Essentially any bike can lock the front wheel under any hard braking situation if you don't know how to modulate your input, and even good riders screw up sometimes. ABS is a critical safety feature that every new bike should have.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:46
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Maybe the roads in NZ are perfect, but for normal riding over here the roads are full of hazards. That's what TCS and ABS is good for. Not some trackday hero stuff where you always come into corners too hot because TCS will save you. Even in cases where I'm focused and into riding, I still either can't make out or misjudge something that lowers my traction. Like one morning I was leaving school in the middle of winter and part of a corner was in the shade. That part of the corner was just cold and damp enough, and maybe some oil had accumulated there, and the DR just spun the rear and dumped me. I like to think that TCS would have saved me. Coming from supermotos, I usually don't even get spooked anymore when a tire slides or whatever. But as a new rider I'd rather feel a little buzz or see a flashing light than be picking myself up off the ground when all I was trying to do was ride to work.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:48
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E: ^^^^ in the above anecdote, you still would have crashed, because electricity can't create friction that doesn't exist. Literally all TC can do is reduce the amount of power reaching the wheel, it can't stop you crashing if you have too much lean angle for the grip available. Coydog posted:This is wrong and stupid and dangerous advice. Please stop perpetuating it. Street =/= perfectly manicured track, and there are a billion times where ABS/TCS would have saved me from at least a bad day. Did you miss the part where I was talking about literbikes? If you need TC to stop yourself having a bad day from a wet weather whoopsie, you shouldn't be on a literbike. If you're on a literbike and the thought of the above happening terrifies you, TC will do nothing for you because you'll crash from general incompetence first. Hence TC on a literbike = redundant. I don't recall mentioning ABS and a quick scroll up reveals that I didn't. Jim Silly-Balls posted:I think the point is that TC is not some magic safety net that keeps the bike upright. It won’t save you if you don’t already know how to ride. Yeah this, it'll absolutely help if you're completely hopeless, but if you're completely hopeless you should be on a learner bike, not a 1000cc missile. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 19:48
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I agree that the number of target fixation crashes must dwarf the number of "oops I gave it too much throttle in a turn and now I'm high siding" crashes
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Feb 5, 2021 19:51
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I can think of two scenarios I've personally experienced where TC would have been a nice safety blanket or at least relieved anus tension. 1) Unexpectedly finding the road ahead covered in 2-3" of slush at I'll say roughly 90kph, which didn't cause a crash but drat it felt squirrelly. 2) Crossing a wet cattle grid. Also didn't cause a crash but skips the bike sideways uncomfortably. I don't even know if TC would have even helped here, and honestly might have made things worse in the first example, because I might have thought "piece of cake, I've got traction control" and not slowed down to 90 or gradually continued to slow down very gently or become hyper aware of my throttle and brake inputs.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:53
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I would also like to state for the record that I am NOT saying “don’t buy a bike with TC or ABS or rider aids”, what I am saying is “don’t put someone on a bike they cannot handle and assume that the TC and ABs and rider aids will sort it out”. This applies as much to a CB250 as it does to a GSXR1000
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Feb 5, 2021 20:02
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Slavvy posted:E: ^^^^ in the above anecdote, you still would have crashed, because electricity can't create friction that doesn't exist. Literally all TC can do is reduce the amount of power reaching the wheel, it can't stop you crashing if you have too much lean angle for the grip available. I'll grant you that you were talking about literbikes. In that case, idiots shouldn't be on fast bikes no matter the safety nets. A safety net isn't going to stop you properly when you are entering a corner at 3x the speed. In my case with the DR, I had just started to turn from a stop, opened the throttle, when I thought I was straightened out, and the tire spun out. TCS could have cut throttle enough that it would have regained traction, right? I'll also concede that I lump TCS with ABS in the "magical items I want to save me" on a bike, but I've never been on a bike with TCS. I'm also biased because on car forums it's full of idiots who say "I turn off TCS and ABS in my car because I KNOW my car and am a better driver than some electronics module". That's the dumbest thing. TCS/ABS is dead weight unless you have already hosed up. In that case, it's always better to get a light telling you you were dumb than a insurance claim saying you were dumb. When you say these things, you become one of those "learn to drive/ride instead of relying on newfangled electronics!" morons to me. Even though I must be absolutely clear that I like you slavvy and enjoy your content.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:05
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all tc does is rob you of a fun moment, cornerspin graduates know this 
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Feb 5, 2021 20:10
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I could use some guidance on this, I love my vulcan 900 but it's getting long in the tooth and it isn't as much fun to ride as it used to be, I'm looking for something a bit peppier. At the moment I've narrowed it down to an indian scout or a cb1100. They both seem to be in the same performance ballpark, and they trade back and forth on other plusses and minuses Honda: +twin front discs on the CB, single disc on the scout + about 1000-1500 cheaper + honda reliability is a known factor, Indian less so - I don't like mid controls Indian: + belt drive on the scout, don't particularly like fussing with a chain drive + more comfortable riding position for me with the feet forward - kinda on the small side, from when I sat on one a while back it's smaller than my vulcan 900 in fact Does anyone around here have experience with both or either one for an extended period of time?
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Feb 5, 2021 20:12
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Ok well try it another way: in your anecdote, if you had known it was going to happen, could you have saved that slide? If the answer is yes, TC would have helped but you also didn't need it because skill could've done the job, because all TC is doing is shutting the throttle. If you couldn't have saved it by shutting the throttle you were always going down. I've been on loads of bikes with TCS and I can tell you that I only successfully provoked one into operating in the dry once; it was an s1000rr and I literally just whacked the throttle open at a heavy lean in second gear to see what it would do. The light blinked and the bike made an unhappy noise and then I had to shut off to avoid running off the corner. I do this with just about every tc bike I get to ride and what it's taught me is that modern bikes have monumental drive traction and you aren't even close to finding the limit even when you think you're going fast, and this was with me deliberately trying to provoke the system. The kinds of small whoopsies you're concerned about aren't really in the TC's intended range of operation; TC is for when you've fully loaded the tyre and suspension, are using most of the torque available and have juuust exceeded the total amount of mechanical traction and need to rein it in a little bit. In the situation you're concerned about there is very little load on the tyre and suspension, you're using a very small amount of torque and the grip simply isn't there. Throttles lose fidelity the closer you get to idle, so TC throttling back what is already a very small amount of torque isn't likely to change the situation, and isn't likely to happen fast enough to help. I know that sounds strange but tyres and engines need time to react and can't work at the speed of electricity; some crashes are simply too quick to save.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:20
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The AT I rented last summer had 3 levels of TC. I tried TC3 on the muddy slick campground road, and played with TC1 and 2 on the paved road. I don't think it ever did anything, at least nothing I noticed. From that I figure I'm a dottering old man who rides well within the limits of the bike and my ability, but then I already knew that.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:20
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As Nero Danced posted:I could use some guidance on this, I love my vulcan 900 but it's getting long in the tooth and it isn't as much fun to ride as it used to be, I'm looking for something a bit peppier. At the moment I've narrowed it down to an indian scout or a cb1100. They both seem to be in the same performance ballpark, and they trade back and forth on other plusses and minuses The Indian Scout I think would be a wonderful upgrade from the Vulcan (my friend has a Vulcan 900 and he quite liked the Indian from what I remember from the brief ride he took on it). If you like the cruiser layout, I don't think you'll like the CB even with its pros over the scout. You'll want to get some kind of adjustable controls/pegs, because with the solo seat and fixed peg position, if your legs are longer than what they built the bike for, it can get pretty uncomfortable on longer rides. I don't like forward controls and the fixed riding position doesn't help for stretching out your legs. You can always hump your rear end over the seat back and sit on the fender to stretch out, but then you're just riding (and looking) like a dong. Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 20:26
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Slavvy posted:Ok well try it another way: in your anecdote, if you had known it was going to happen, could you have saved that slide? If the answer is yes, TC would have helped but you also didn't need it because skill could've done the job, because all TC is doing is shutting the throttle. If you couldn't have saved it by shutting the throttle you were always going down. Thanks for breaking it all down for me like that. Clearly I was wrong about what TCS could do for me. Is there any electronics package that would do that for me? Or is it just ABS and a prayer? Razzled posted:all tc does is rob you of a fun moment, cornerspin graduates know this Some of the most fun I've ever had on a motorcycle was leaving corners with the back out and throttle pinned on a 250 supermoto.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:28
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Coydog posted:In that case, it's always better to get a light telling you you were dumb than a insurance claim saying you were dumb. I agree with you and TC will turn a "layerdan" situation into a brown pants situation. Far more preferable IMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNnN5DZI17Q (not me) Could this little incident have been prevented had the rider chosen a better line and regarded weather conditions? Absolutely, but I am sure he's glad he paid the extra BMW bullions for the electronics suite. Tenchrono fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 20:29
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MomJeans420 posted:someone had a video they posted of him blowing by them at the track and popping a wheelie as he did it it me (really bad loud audio) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivde6tus058 z3n died by becoming a large baby that went back into gestation and lives negative years now
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Feb 5, 2021 20:48
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Sagebrush posted:I've lost the rear wheel under power like maybe...twice? In more than 10 years of riding? I lost it a bit on the track last year. It had started to rain and I was telling myself, "you have modern tires; you have almost as much grip as you do in the dry! you're not a fast rider; you're not going to overwhelm the tires with your regular-riding rear end!" It wasn't true. Well, I am a slow rider, but I started giving it some throttle leaned over at the apex (not on the curbs) and woop! Managed to keep it upright, though, and followed like four other guys into the pits after that. TC might have prevented that, only to go off somewhere else.  What was scarier than that was the complete lack of adherence to any COVID protocols. I haven't been back since.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:53
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who needs TC when you can just get lucky af https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PXdhYRShPo
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Feb 5, 2021 20:55
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GriszledMelkaba posted:it me (really bad loud audio) That's it! I remember thinking hopefully I'll be doing cool poo poo like that on my Triumph when I hit my first track day. Spoiler, I did not.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:35
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Spiffness posted:West coast crew keeps him locked up these days ruining perfectly good motorcycles I have some recommendations for new riders: Honda CBX:  Sure, it's a little on the heavy side but it's lighter than a sportster or whatever harley is pumping out these days, and it's under the power output of a modern 600, so it's pretty safe. I do recommend swapping on 17s though, so that might be a little out of the norms of your usual new rider. You can get an 1190 Super Enduro:  It's lighter than the CBX but also doesn't have a seat so, uh, you know, it's good for building good habits for your eventual pro trials bike career. Also, it's got ABS and Traction Control, and an offroad mode which reduces power to even less than the already neutered CBX. I'd also recommend a Ducati 999, but you should remove the motor and put in a multistrada motor for less weight and lower HP, which makes it about like an SV, but with much nicer suspension and frame and a bit more torque so it's harder to stall.  Also that sets you up for the upgrade path, which is the 999 motor in the multistrada. Consider it a project to grow into. Also, cutting out some of the frame supports to make the motor fit helps with the suppleness of the frame.  Or just buy a 790 and put 17s on it because KTM refuses to make good motorcycles.  Rumors of my demise have been apparently greatly exaggerated, but rumors of the demise of motorcycles that come under my care have absolutely not been exaggerated. GriszledMelkaba posted:it me (really bad loud audio) better video: https://streamable.com/c3v12
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Feb 5, 2021 21:37
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