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euphronius posted:The end of the hobbit isn’t very children’s booky iirc It is, just not very Disney.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:43
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I just want to make clear (and this is the last thing I will say on this godawful topic) that I did not say euphronius was a troll for calling the prequels good (even though my opinion is that they are bad). I called euphronius a troll because he said the prequels were objectively good and that The Hobbit was objectively a bad book. He frames it like that so that his opinions are almost impossible to discuss without exactly this sort of bullshit argument. I fell for it, my bad. Sorry, everyone.
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Feb 6, 2021 01:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The Hobbit was the best thing I had ever read when I was eight years old and life has all been downhill from there so, therefore 
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Feb 6, 2021 01:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The Hobbit was the best thing I had ever read when I was eight years old and life has all been downhill from there so, therefore This, but unironically? I remember borrowing The Hobbit from the school library when I was in fifth grade or so. I returned it the next day. When the librarian lady asked me why I was already returning it and that surely I could give the book another chance, I had to explain that I had already finished reading it. She didn't believe me
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Feb 6, 2021 11:42
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I never thought about it until now but Eomer giving Aragorn two horses in exchange for Merry and Pippin's presumed death is basically paying a weregild, isn't it.
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Feb 6, 2021 21:16
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Arcsquad12 posted:I never thought about it until now but Eomer giving Aragorn two horses in exchange for Merry and Pippin's presumed death is basically paying a weregild, isn't it. He lends them horses in the hope that they will come to Edoras after finishing their search. It's only two because Gimli refuses one. Eomer talks about doing the same for both Boromir and Gandalf in the same section, it's standard custom. Only people trying to buy black horses are turned away. Unlike the films he's sure that only orcs were killed as they checked the bodies and Aragorn doesn't see any reason to doubt him.
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Feb 6, 2021 23:24
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Giving people horses is a pretty standard heroic flex thing. Iliad is full of lordly people giving each other horses
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Feb 7, 2021 00:05
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I read the chapters that cover the different threads of the battle at Minas Tirith last night. I wish the movies had filmed anything remotely approaching the descriptions in the book. Even if it was still trimmed for movie drama, including the Dawnless Day, the Rammas Echor falling, the fields being filled with fire, the various little towns out and buildings, Aragorn's standard on the ships and on and on all feel like very cinematic images. Some of the particulars of the troop movements would have been hard to communicate but it could have been something so much more. Its especially disappointing that Aragorn does nothing in the movie version of the battle. Didn't the movies do procedural generation for the big sweeping scenes of fights? Maybe that's why every battle took place in a generic empty field in the movies. Easier to do that than to have your CG extras getting stuck on walls or terrain.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:26
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Shiroc posted:I read the chapters that cover the different threads of the battle at Minas Tirith last night. I wish the movies had filmed anything remotely approaching the descriptions in the book. Even if it was still trimmed for movie drama, including the Dawnless Day, the Rammas Echor falling, the fields being filled with fire, the various little towns out and buildings, Aragorn's standard on the ships and on and on all feel like very cinematic images. Some of the particulars of the troop movements would have been hard to communicate but it could have been something so much more. Its especially disappointing that Aragorn does nothing in the movie version of the battle. I think that's right about the procgen yeah. They certainly didn't assemble and armor that many extras. But I would have liked to see a more faithful Gondor, too. And the whole Pelennor Fields chapter of ROTK is high on my favorite passages of all time, there's so much emotional back and forth, so much communicated in terms of feel and experience, so much of both the triumph and the pain and cost of battle, it's just fantastic. The ROTK cartoon, for all its weaknesses, benefitted from the presence of Gandalf narrating from the future as a framing device, which allowed them to lay out the stakes using some choice passages from the book's narration; as a result, I found that scene in the cartoon really memorable as a kid, as well. Jackson was hamstrung by his choice of how to structure the movie - it's hard to do that scene as effectively if you've been watching everything unfold in real time rather than hearing about the Paths of the Dead after. Of course movies are always going to be interpretations and different and that's fine, but that scene borders on silly in the movie IMO. I also think Jackson made further choices that really hurt the impact of the scene. Not playing up the "who's in the ships" angle at least a little hurt, but having the Dead be on the ships was just stupid. I get that he liked his gruesome ghost zombies but they aren't a good fit in multiple ways. And to me the dread and confusion of Mordor's forces once they see who's on the ships is way better if it's just enemy reinforcements rather than the unbeatable dead. I know some folks here don't like ACOUP but I think he had it exactly right that the books talk about the battle as a series of swings in morale, where Jackson sees it primarily as a series of weapon systems trumping each other. Bret on ACOUP rightly points out that this is less historical, but I also think it's just plain less emotionally effective. Or at least, I'm much less interested in the kinds of emotions it's trying to evoke than the book's version.
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Feb 9, 2021 17:51
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I cried in the passage when Eomer finds Eowyn and the Witchking. Its such perfectly written piece of where he's sad about losing Theoden but sees it as a noble sacrifice and has time for poetry, but then he sees Eowyn and completely shatters. The "Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!" is stronger there. The books already establish that the battle was likely hopeless. The shift from the Rohirrim being singing heroes to just a wave of heedless, self destructive violence until they see Aragorn's standard is so good. Then just that the battle continues on for the rest of the day, no singular heroic moment that ends it.
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Feb 10, 2021 00:14
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Shiroc posted:Didn't the movies do procedural generation for the big sweeping scenes of fights? Maybe that's why every battle took place in a generic empty field in the movies. Easier to do that than to have your CG extras getting stuck on walls or terrain. Yeah, Weta Digital developed some new software called MASSIVE that allowed them to essentially simulate wide-scale battle scene shots like a Total War game, rather than individually animating everything. I remember them talking a lot about it at the time (they always made sure to mention that the first time they simulated Helm's Deep, the defenders ran away!), though my suspicion is that it was probably used a fair bit less in the final product than was implied. You can also see how much the software improved during those couple of years, because the Last Alliance shots at the start of Fellowship look way dodgier and more robotic than the Pelennor Fields shots. Interestingly, I looked it up and they've actually turned it into a licensed product that's been used in a bunch of other stuff like Avengers: Endgame, Aquaman, and Game of Thrones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MASSIVE_(software)
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Feb 10, 2021 00:41
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I think they got it right the first time thanks to solid cinematography, because the giant battles in the last two Avengers movies really do nothing out of the ordinary and the Game of Thrones one was shot by blind molerats in a sack.
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Feb 10, 2021 01:39
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I won't be happy until I see thousands of Orc extras in full face makeup and prosthetics wielding realistically crafted fake weapons swarming over a variety of individually created pastures, oasts, and townlands.
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Feb 10, 2021 03:47
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I did want to see the oasts and garners, folds and byres Not a rick, cot, nor tree 
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Feb 10, 2021 03:53
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:I won't be happy until I see thousands of Orc extras in full face makeup and prosthetics wielding realistically crafted fake weapons swarming over a variety of individually created pastures, oasts, and townlands. Sergei Bondarchuk presents The Lord of the Rings.
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Feb 10, 2021 04:05
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Data Graham posted:I did want to see the oasts and garners, folds and byres No just a featureless green field.
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Feb 10, 2021 04:47
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Data Graham posted:I did want to see the oasts and garners, folds and byres Okay, I know what cots, trees and folds are, but I'll have to guess all the rest, based on what sounds right. I'm going to say that oasts are some kind of sturdy timber barrel for storing oats. Garners are sturdy timber devices for distributing wool and/or cheese. Byres are a kind of sturdy timber fireplace, and a rick is a sturdy timber animal enclosure, generally found adjacent to a black-smith, horse-yard or mule-burrow.
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Feb 10, 2021 04:47
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It's not just about destroying the subtleties in the visual spectrum, the Jackson movies also removed a lot of the emotional subtleties. I think time is going to be hard on those movies and by the 2030's they're going to be considered bad adaptations that need to be rectified.
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Feb 10, 2021 04:51
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:It's not just about destroying the subtleties in the visual spectrum, the Jackson movies also removed a lot of the emotional subtleties. I think time is going to be hard on those movies and by the 2030's they're going to be considered bad adaptations that need to be rectified. Fellowship is actually very good, about as close to perfect as a big fantasy movie is going to get. Two Towers has some problems, but they're problems that are mostly caused by keeping the events of the movie chronological or from other problems that arose during filming (like cutting Arwen from the Helm's Deep sequence). Return of the King has some severe problems that just boil down to poorly chosen artistic license, but more or less the movie holds together.
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Feb 10, 2021 05:04
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I've literally complained about this 8 or 9 times in this thread but I'm always upset about the movies turning the bad guys into Monstars. The black riders in Fellowship being turned into evil beasts who mostly only hisssss. In the books they can carry on a conversation. The Orcs being turned into radiation monsters with no internal motivation.
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Feb 10, 2021 05:17
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Yeah, reading through the books, its disappointing how the movies completely lose the idea that Mordor is actually a state with governance and diplomacy. The Orcs have actual societies. The men from the East and South all have their own cultures and motivations for being in the war. There are so many other cultures of men outside of Gondor and Rohan who have their own reasons and levels of involvement in the war. The Dunlendings are given motivations and have legitimate grievances with the Rohirrim. Mordor has a well enough understood chain of military command that Gothmog immediately becomes ranking officer when the Witchking is destroyed. Its all very neat. Jackson makes the story feel more racist because everyone opposing the heroes is just a savage monster or dark skinned primitive without any culture at all.
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Feb 10, 2021 05:51
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I have always thought it weird that the movie emphasizes Gothmog (plus his weird design) as the "enemy commander" rather than the Witch King. In the theatrical version especially it's like, introduce WK, then only all-CGI shots of him flying around, then Eowyn's big moment. Have him give some orders and cast a spell on Grond and stuff first so taking him down seems like a bigger deal.
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Feb 10, 2021 06:09
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Tree Bucket posted:Okay, I know what cots, trees and folds are, but I'll have to guess all the rest, based on what sounds right. Garner took 250 Test wickets for the Windies in the 1970s mate, that's an easy one
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Feb 10, 2021 07:07
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I think that Jackson's trilogy makes compromises that are appropriate for an adaptation into a different medium and a different genre.
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Feb 10, 2021 07:21
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Shiroc posted:Yeah, reading through the books, its disappointing how the movies completely lose the idea that Mordor is actually a state with governance and diplomacy. The Orcs have actual societies. The men from the East and South all have their own cultures and motivations for being in the war. There are so many other cultures of men outside of Gondor and Rohan who have their own reasons and levels of involvement in the war. The Dunlendings are given motivations and have legitimate grievances with the Rohirrim. Mordor has a well enough understood chain of military command that Gothmog immediately becomes ranking officer when the Witchking is destroyed. Its all very neat. The Dunlendings had legitimate greivances against the Rohirrim.
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Feb 10, 2021 07:52
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webmeister posted:Garner took 250 Test wickets for the Windies in the 1970s mate, that's an easy one I need to surrender my Australian birth certificate
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Feb 10, 2021 08:21
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:I've literally complained about this 8 or 9 times in this thread but I'm always upset about the movies turning the bad guys into Monstars. The black riders in Fellowship being turned into evil beasts who mostly only hisssss. In the books they can carry on a conversation. The bit where they're leaving Bag End and Frodo overhears the Gaffer talking to a Rider always amuses me. The dread Nazgul, a king of Men, accursed and doomed by a Ring of Power given by a fallen angel, asking for a hobbit's forwarding address and being told to mind his own business.
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Feb 10, 2021 08:40
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Gats Akimbo posted:The bit where they're leaving Bag End and Frodo overhears the Gaffer talking to a Rider always amuses me. The dread Nazgul, a king of Men, accursed and doomed by a Ring of Power given by a fallen angel, asking for a hobbit's forwarding address and being told to mind his own business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=watch?Cr-wOQSUWQk
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Feb 10, 2021 09:42
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Shiroc posted:Yeah, reading through the books, its disappointing how the movies completely lose the idea that Mordor is actually a state with governance and diplomacy. The Orcs have actual societies. The men from the East and South all have their own cultures and motivations for being in the war. There are so many other cultures of men outside of Gondor and Rohan who have their own reasons and levels of involvement in the war. The Dunlendings are given motivations and have legitimate grievances with the Rohirrim. Mordor has a well enough understood chain of military command that Gothmog immediately becomes ranking officer when the Witchking is destroyed. Its all very neat. yeah thats why shadow of war is more faithful than the movies, it's an actually believable mordor
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Feb 10, 2021 11:11
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Tree Bucket posted:Okay, I know what cots, trees and folds are, but I'll have to guess all the rest, based on what sounds right. I remember most of these, some from other contexts like James Herriot etc Cot = cottage Byre is a barn or cowshed Fold = sheepfold or pen Rick = haystack Garner = grain storage structure Oast = "a kiln used for drying hops" according to Google
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Feb 10, 2021 13:14
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Data Graham posted:Oast = "a kiln used for drying hops" according to Google https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oast_house
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Feb 10, 2021 15:27
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sweet geek swag posted:Fellowship is actually very good, about as close to perfect as a big fantasy movie is going to get. Two Towers has some problems, but they're problems that are mostly caused by keeping the events of the movie chronological or from other problems that arose during filming (like cutting Arwen from the Helm's Deep sequence). Return of the King has some severe problems that just boil down to poorly chosen artistic license, but more or less the movie holds together. This is pretty much my view. I understand their reasoning for most of the decisions they made, even if i disagree with them, and seeing how the story resonated with my family who had 0 interest in the books initially, I cannot entirely fault them. Since the movies released, everyone in the my family has read the hobbit and LOTR, and my brother and sister even read the Silmarillion, and there is no way I could have convinced them to do so otherwise. I think the movies are great because they get across all of the big themes and messages of LOTR, even if i think they made choices along the way that hinder that. In the end, the films evoke the same emotions in me as the books. Everything important is there. The themes of industrialization and destruction of nature, the elves fighting the long defeat, the valor of men in face of hopelessness, the hobbits as a more modern style of hero vs Aragorn's very classic heroic role, etc. They are imperfect and make glaring errors but i do not think any of them are serious enough to hamper the overall themes and messages. Aragorn by the end is the King of Gondor, Faramir and Eowyn are in the right place, Boromir gets his heroic end, etc. I do not think any other attempts would be less impacted by Hollywood fuckery as the Hobbit showed, and I'm glad we got what we did in a way that ages well and will continue to fun to watch for many years. Shibawanko posted:yeah thats why shadow of war is more faithful than the movies, it's an actually believable mordor I will always go to bat for Shadow of Mordor/War because they are extremely fun games regardless of anything else, and do fun things with Tolkien's world. They also make changes that only someone who is a big fan of the stories would know to change in the first place, even Sexy Shelob makes sense within the story the game posits, as silly as it is, with shapeshifting is already well established by Tolkien. It's a fun alternate look into the story, and the way it fleshes out Mordor's society is extremely cool. Fundamentally, I prefer people that try and do new things with Tolkien's world rather than it just staying put. Tolkien himself envisioned people making music based on the songs of his books, art based on it, etc. Maybe he did not want Sexy Shelob, but I think he would be pleased to know his stories so resonated with people that they wanted to add their own mark to his legendarium. Some will of course suck rear end, but to me its worth it. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 16:36
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Plus I just appreciate that they got the vast majority of the pronunciations right. If the movies had been ~perfect~ but had stupid mispronunciations like "Sellaborn" I would probably think of them less well than I do now, stupid as it feels to admit that. ^^ reimagining is great, like I'm sure JRRT wouldn't have minded frog Gollum even, but the pronunciations are kind of the one thing you don't wanna gently caress with
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Feb 10, 2021 16:52
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Data Graham posted:Plus I just appreciate that they got the vast majority of the pronunciations right. If the movies had been ~perfect~ but had stupid mispronunciations like "Sellaborn" I would probably think of them less well than I do now, stupid as it feels to admit that. They even made sure native Sindarin speakers all roll their R's constantly (Legolas), people who learned Sindarin roll them sometimes (Aragorn), and people who don't know it never do. Basically they all pronounce "Mordor" differently and it relates to their interactions with the elves or knowledge of the lore of middle earth.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:08
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Data Graham posted:Plus I just appreciate that they got the vast majority of the pronunciations right. If the movies had been ~perfect~ but had stupid mispronunciations like "Sellaborn" I would probably think of them less well than I do now, stupid as it feels to admit that. shouldve gone with his real name, teleporno
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Feb 10, 2021 18:13
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Sore-on Aruman Selleborn Surufin Sellabrimbor Medross Magglor Ear-and-dill 
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 18:24
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Ear and Dill is the name of my post-pandemic New American gastropub.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:47
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Omnomnomnivore posted:Ear and Dill is the name of my post-pandemic New American gastropub. Ear and Dill, grandson-in-law of Brian and Lithium.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:51
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I respect Peter Jackson for what he achieved with the trilogy, but I've always liked to imagine an adaption by Michael Mann with a similar atmosphere to his Last of the Mohicans. That film has always struck me as very Tolkien-like in its melancholy tone and themes.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:10
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Difference being that Mann's adaptation is an objective improvement over the novel because the they bothered to research the various nations working alongside the French and English during the war rather than the crapshoot that Cooper wrote.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:25
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