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Dalael posted:I'm not acting like I'm an authority on the subject, I'm mentioning an hypothesis and providing the links for the articles and research on which it is based and trying to answer questions to the best of my ability from people who keep saying poo poo like "Lol atlantis guy!". The fact that I can't answer all your questions, or there may be some inconsistencies should instead been seen as me not being a loving expert on the subject and my attempt at providing the information should absolutely loving not be seen as trying to save face but at a layman's attempt to find the answers to foster discussion. People say "lol atlantis guy" because like I said, you've done this numerous times and not just about the Atlantis thing. This is a reputation you have cultivated. You can't answer all the questions, but instead of saying "I don't know" or "Good question" you prevaricate and circle back around with even more wrong information, while accusing others of not reading or understanding. When people have had enough, you act victimized. And like, yeah. You did present all of this as fact. Your very first post called it undeniable, and then you backpedaled, and then posted and reposted articles that don't say what you present them as saying. Like I said, at worst it's bad faith, or at best you're genuinely confused about what these sources are actually saying. Like, that's as charitable as it gets after this many instances, that you're just bad at reading science articles and even worse at being called on it. edit: what a page snipe. Sorry for my part in this everybody, I'll drop it from here.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:42
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Well, you also tried to convince us Atlantis was in Bolivia, and failed there, too. I suggest taking a step back and try to convince us Narnia is in your backyard. That's easier to prove, you just need a good camera on your phone.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:44
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Dalael posted:Then I did a piss poor job. 
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Feb 10, 2021 19:52
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Kor posted:People say "lol atlantis guy" because like I said, you've done this numerous times and not just about the Atlantis thing. This is a reputation you have cultivated. You can't answer all the questions, but instead of saying "I don't know" or "Good question" you prevaricate and circle back around with even more wrong information, while accusing others of not reading or understanding. When people have had enough, you act victimized. You're right, my first post where I said its undeniable was idiotic and yes I backpedalled on that claim because I definitely jump the gun. Evidence that the YD may have started because of an asteroid impact has been debated since at the very least 2007 (possibly even earlier), and I'm a big proponent of the idea that earth was hit recently and suffered a big reset. As I said, I'll try not to do that anymore. But when I try and clarify and I provide links to scientific articles, the least you could do is discuss these things in good faith and stop posting like i'm trying to go all Maga on you.
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Feb 10, 2021 20:06
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Libluini posted:Well, you also tried to convince us Atlantis was in Bolivia, and failed there, too. Narnia is in a wardrobe you philistine!
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Feb 10, 2021 20:07
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Daleal I appreciate that you are posting in good faith but when you read articles you need to pay more attention to words like possibly. Also try and use the piece in question to justify a different (opposite) theory to the one you have an emotional attachment to. Oh and if you find yourself getting angry at someone replying to you in this thread try slowly reading their post again, Kor especially made sure to be very explicit about the possibility of your posting earnestly. 
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Feb 10, 2021 20:16
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Weka posted:Daleal I appreciate that you are posting in good faith but when you read articles you need to pay more attention to words like possibly. Also try and use the piece in question to justify a different (opposite) theory to the one you have an emotional attachment to. You're right, I will keep try and keep this in mind.
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Feb 10, 2021 20:32
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Yeah I found this passage in the Anabasis: Always gotta keep in mind that you can't really have much in the way of warfare without logistics, and while certainly a lot of armies would pillage and loot their way through sometimes even friendly territory to stay fed, it's not sustainable in the long run. That passage is significant I'd imagine since it's specifically the army abandoning their logistics train to take to guerrilla warfare, since in hostile territory it'll rapidly become a liability as they can't expect a peaceful resupply. Sun Tzu was around 2500 years ago and his works also go into detail about the importance of logistics, supply lines, organisation and infrastructure. A well equipped army makes sure the troops are well fed, well rested, and equipped and trained to deal with any scenario they might reasonably encounter.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:02
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Half of Caesar's strategy in Gaul was just to have enough food that he could afford to sit in his fortified position longer than the enemy, thus forcing them to make the first move
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Feb 11, 2021 22:52
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One of my favourite bits in the Lord of the Rings is when Pippin keeps asking where he can get something to eat, and the soldiers of Gondor nod thoughtfully and take this as a sign that Pippin is a true veteran soldier.
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Feb 12, 2021 00:14
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Also very nice that the Hobbits speak a dialect of the same language that the Gondorians speak which has lost its formal address form. So when the Hobbits show up in Elven cloaks and address Denethor in the informal form, everyone assumes they must be princes.
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Feb 12, 2021 04:45
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Arglebargle III posted:Also very nice that the Hobbits speak a dialect of the same language that the Gondorians speak which has lost its formal address form. So when the Hobbits show up in Elven cloaks and address Denethor in the informal form, everyone assumes they must be princes. Which, technically, they are, though they don't thinknof themselves as such.
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Feb 12, 2021 04:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Which, technically, they are, though they don't thinknof themselves as such. They’re the sons of wealthy landowners (  ), that doesn’t make them nobility.
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Feb 12, 2021 07:17
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It's true that Frodo and Merry were just gentry, but Pippin is the legitimate heir to the title of the Thain, an office which, although having exercised only ceremonial authority for longer than anyone alive can remember, is noble. It was a title was established after the collapse of all the fragmented successor states to Arnor, so maybe it's not nobility as the Stewards of Gondor would've recognized.
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Feb 12, 2021 08:18
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Always gotta keep in mind that you can't really have much in the way of warfare without logistics, and while certainly a lot of armies would pillage and loot their way through sometimes even friendly territory to stay fed, it's not sustainable in the long run. That passage is significant I'd imagine since it's specifically the army abandoning their logistics train to take to guerrilla warfare, since in hostile territory it'll rapidly become a liability as they can't expect a peaceful resupply. Yeah exactly, that was the "oh poo poo, they've executed our generals. OK we're Greeks and we have democracy so we just elected new ones, but it is time to get the gently caress out of Persia" moment. The Anabasis is full of cool details about the logistics of keeping the army going.
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Feb 12, 2021 09:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Always gotta keep in mind that you can't really have much in the way of warfare without logistics, and while certainly a lot of armies would pillage and loot their way through sometimes even friendly territory to stay fed, it's not sustainable in the long run. That passage is significant I'd imagine since it's specifically the army abandoning their logistics train to take to guerrilla warfare, since in hostile territory it'll rapidly become a liability as they can't expect a peaceful resupply. Didn't they infact get resupplied peacefully? Like just rock up to a town and buy a bunch of food.
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Feb 12, 2021 11:44
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There is only so much food you can peacefully trade from the many fortified towns on your path, enough to get you to the next couple on your path. And from the perspective of the King of Kings, he probably judged that there was zero reason to render aid to these loving rear end in a top hat mercenaries who tried to kill you a few weeks ago, there was no reason to pay for their supplies (which could possibly be repaid with treachery of their own), or pay for an army to actually give battle to 10 thousand soldiers. And they weren't a serious threat because they were pointed away from you, back to their homeland. So let's take the cheap option, kill some of their generals in hopes that the army would scatter, nip at their heels. But against all odds they remained coherent and disciplined, so instead of disintegrating into tiny bands who could be hunted down by the locals, they stayed coherent and marched together in force, too many to devote resources to kill properly.
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Feb 12, 2021 12:45
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It rules that Pippin, by far the dumbest Hobbit, is the highest rank.
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Feb 12, 2021 15:04
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Zopotantor posted:They’re the sons of wealthy landowners ( lol no pippin's deal has already been laid out. merry is the heir to buckland, which is actually a breakaway colony of hobbits that don't fall under the thain's nominal authority, and he's also in the line of succession for thain. and frodo is in the line of succession for both titles, although slightly more distantly. sam is the only one free of the scourge of nobility
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Feb 12, 2021 15:16
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Tolkien was into that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDtmMXJ1B4&t=2160s
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Feb 12, 2021 15:31
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Jazerus posted:lol no And Sam, as One of the Good Ones, gets elected Mayor seven times and then his daughter's husband gets made Warden of Westmarch (a minor title). We have a long running Tolkien thread in TBB for those of you into such discussions: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3532243&pagenumber=272#post512414686
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Feb 12, 2021 15:51
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Weka posted:Didn't they infact get resupplied peacefully? Like just rock up to a town and buy a bunch of food. They do a couple of times, but a bunch of times they just get people throwing rocks and spears at them. And then winter comes, and they roll up to a fortified town and they're out of food, and the town refuses to sell to them, so they are forced to storm the town and take all the food. The townsfolk end up throwing themselves off the walls so they don't starve/get enslaved. It's pretty grim stuff! A lot of the towns are basically subsistence level farmers so they don't have enough food surplus to sell to wandering bands of 10,000 mercenaries.
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Feb 12, 2021 16:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:And Sam, as One of the Good Ones, gets elected Mayor seven times and then his daughter's husband gets made Warden of Westmarch (a minor title). Please join us as we are descending into madness currently and fantasy casting the inevitable LOTR reboot
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Feb 12, 2021 16:41
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sullat posted:They do a couple of times, but a bunch of times they just get people throwing rocks and spears at them. And then winter comes, and they roll up to a fortified town and they're out of food, and the town refuses to sell to them, so they are forced to storm the town and take all the food. The townsfolk end up throwing themselves off the walls so they don't starve/get enslaved. It's pretty grim stuff! Most of the fighting the 10000 did after Cyrus ate it was against people they were a. robbing or b. pisses about getting robbed. The very first thing that happens once they get to the hills is a dust up because they dont have interpreters for the new ethnic group, so cant trade, so they just end up stripping a village bare and then the next several weeks is desprate marches to cross rivers and crest mountain passages before the locals cut them off and javelin them to death. Quite hilariously, later on there's one example where a town agreed to set up a market but only of all the mercenaries stayed outside, so as to avoid a Trojaning. Then some rowdy soldiers caused a brawl that spilled into the gates and the soldiers were all set to sack the place, and our brave Xenophon had to race up and stop the impending disaster.* Not out of any particular moral sense of right and wrong, just because sacking this town would make all future towns much less likely to deal and bumblefucking and drunkenly fistfighting your way past the gates isn't a repeatable military stratagem. *According to Xenophon, who does give himself a few big fancy speeches. On the other hand, he's a fairly self effacing guy in most of his other works, and officers having to corral the enlisted idiots doesnt seem all that unbelievable.
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Feb 12, 2021 17:24
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My favourite detail about the 10,000 is that they were absolutely not worth the money that Cyrus promised, as they get duped by a Persian feigned retreat and accomplish nothing while their employer got owned.
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Feb 12, 2021 22:15
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Do people here have a favored translation/edition of Anabasis? I'm tired of waiting for the Landmark translation
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Feb 12, 2021 22:19
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Iirc Farmer Maggot was aware of peregrins status and referred to him as Master
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Feb 12, 2021 22:47
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Jazerus posted:lol no Ah but you see Merry is the revolutionary vanguard because he's a breakaway, and can't help being exactly the same as the current overlords. Prepare to be purged for reactionary thought, comrade. saruman had the most effective five year plan
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Feb 13, 2021 00:34
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As discussed in detail by Bret Devereaux, Saruman's plans are terrible
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Feb 13, 2021 02:21
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:As discussed in detail by Bret Devereaux, Saruman's plans are terrible I liked how every single plan that Saruman has ends with his head on a pike.
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Feb 13, 2021 10:45
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Saruman did nothing wrong
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Feb 13, 2021 11:08
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Bret wants to make the point that Tolkien was knowledgable about military history and strategy and logistics being that he fought in the trenches and had a background in studying the anglo-saxons, whose culture was absolutely steeped in warfare. And conversely, GRRM, in spite of his pretensions of being "realistic", lacks that fundamental knowledge and background and constantly falls into silly pop culture traps and misunderstandings. I buy the latter, but I also suspects that he's reading too much into the former. Middle Earth's depiction even in the books, has far too little population and political density for a comparable medieval land. There should be far more kingdoms full of armed men willing to use force to enforce their claims to land and tax. And the orcs, they were done dirty, even orcs who hadn't aligned with Sauron should be able to establish petty kingdoms and perform diplomacy with their orcish and human and hobbit and elvish neighbors.
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Feb 13, 2021 12:24
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cheetah7071 posted:Do people here have a favored translation/edition of Anabasis? I'm tired of waiting for the Landmark translation You could always learn Greek 
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Feb 13, 2021 13:01
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/12/dramatic-discovery-links-stonehenge-to-its-original-site-in-wales Stonehenge's original site may have been found.
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Feb 13, 2021 22:39
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ChubbyChecker posted:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/12/dramatic-discovery-links-stonehenge-to-its-original-site-in-wales goddamn everything really is stolen there isn't it
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Feb 13, 2021 23:05
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Tired: Elgin Marbles Wired: Welsh Bluestones
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Feb 13, 2021 23:07
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That's fascinating! But there should be some traces of the moving job too, shouldn't there? Anyway, about this: quote:An ancient myth about Stonehenge, first recorded 900 years ago, tells of the wizard Merlin leading men to Ireland to capture a magical stone circle called the Giants’ Dance and rebuilding it in England as a memorial to the dead. One thing which is very fascinating to me how reality becomes myth which in turn informs art which in turn inspires actions which in turn becomes reality. We talked about flood myths earlier, can anyone recommend any excellent books on mythological constructs, how this one might come from that one etc?
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Feb 13, 2021 23:21
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Phobophilia posted:Bret wants to make the point that Tolkien was knowledgable about military history and strategy and logistics being that he fought in the trenches and had a background in studying the anglo-saxons, whose culture was absolutely steeped in warfare. And conversely, GRRM, in spite of his pretensions of being "realistic", lacks that fundamental knowledge and background and constantly falls into silly pop culture traps and misunderstandings.
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Feb 13, 2021 23:47
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Arglebargle III posted:It rules that Pippin, by far the dumbest Hobbit, is the highest rank. It rules that the dumbest hobbit rules.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:00
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Nessus posted:I would agree with you that it would be logical for the political landscape to be more complex, although there are some mitigating factors in the lore: Sauron sent out a plague of immense power which depopulated a lot of the otherwise pleasant-enough areas you see, and the Fellowship is specifically taking the backroads. It would have been kind of cool to see a patch of regular Gondor, though. Ah the movie did the Gondorian countryside dirty, the Pelennor was described as heavily cultivated in the books, which entirely makes sense because you need a ton of farmland around any city to feed it with bread and chickens and cherry tomatoes for Denethor to messily crunch in his mouth. But even the books were rather sparse with details of rural economies outside of the Shire.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:38
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